I'm bored, let's fight
 

First, let me say that despite my various incarcerations at the hands of an unjust justice system, I have respect for the work done by LEOs. My brother was one for years.

However, I have noticed a trend since 9/11 (it may have been going on before that) for law enforcement personnel to compare themselves to the military, to "borrow" terminology, to use military equipment and weapons, etc. It has reached the point where I, perhaps overly sensitively, seem to detect a chip on the shoulder of many. They appear to be overly justifying the work they do when on joint boards. Without need as far as I'm concerned.

I have heard them call each other and themselves "Operators", their ops "Special Ops", etc. The latest I heard is LESOM (Law Enforcement Special Operations Medic). This is the name some wish to give the paramedics that work with SWAT teams on raids, etc.

I really don't understand this sudden need to paramilitarize law enforcement. I never called myself a SWAT guy. I also think it is very, very dangerous path to go down, especially if it is coming from within.

There is a reason for such laws as Posse Comitatus and many have seen first hand the effects of deviating from a separation of responsibilitites. My personal opinion is that policies such as having FBI personnel overseas is detrimental to their actual mission. There are training missions overseas that I think should be done by LEO, the military in many cases doesn't have the expertise in the subject matter, personal protection comes to mind. (Yes, I know some military personnel have dones it, but its not core business.)

During Operation Promote Liberty (nation building in Panama) we were assigned a reservist from the LA County Sheriff's Department to "assist us". The idea was to convert the PDF into police. We obviously didn't know the first thing about policing skills, so the planned seemd valid.

Now, this young man was a fine citizen. Hispanic decent with decent language skills, years of experience working in the LA County jail. Nice guy too. He also had no lesson plans or any idea of how to do them or a POI, no instructor skills, etc. So he sat around for a month or two while we did the work. I don't blame the individual, he simply didn't have the mind set to do the job.

Another case is the death and wounding of the Robin Sage guys. I don't know all the details, but there is a problem there. We've been working that area non-stop since 1952. There's no excuse.

I rode with my brother on I 10 just out of Houston numerous times. That doesn't qualify me as LEO, but as I said to him, it gives me enough of a basis to make the statement "No way in hell I would ever do things the way they do." In his case, ongoing training was non-existent. Weapons maintenance, non-existent, intelligence - non-existent, language skills in a primarily Hispanic area - non-existent. I know everybody's experiences will be different, and I'm really not generalizing. Just looking for discussion.

Anyway, I just thought I'd throw that out there and see if there were any comments.

ATTICA! ATTICA! :D

Re: I'm bored, let's fight
 

?!!? dont tarnish my perfect image of you (unless its a really good story!)

The previous discussion about defining street gangs as insurgencies was food for thought. I think LEOs do see themselves in a new role these days. For example, Seattle 1999.

TRAGICALLY POOR communication.

true of most civilian professions.

bleh.

Re: Re: I'm bored, let's fight
 

Refresh my memory. (tell me you're not refering to a man with a sword holding off the entire Seattle PD for an ungodly period of time.)

Team Sergeant

WTO Ministerial meeting in Seattle in 1999. The first big anti-globalization protest bringing together leftists, anarchists and assorted nutcases and agitators. Thousands of protesters, lots of tear gas, and far more organization among the criminal elements in the protesters than in a typical riot.

Re: Re: Re: I'm bored, let's fight
 

I remember that guy.
No, I'm refering to unruly people without swords.
http://www.seattleweekly.com/feature...anderson.shtml

Its the whole crowd control thing. It makes civilians nervous. Causes problems. Blurs the lines.

NDD, I tend to agree with you. I was a DC cop for about 5 years after comming back from VN. 2 yrs undercover and part of the assault team when the Hanafi Muslims took over The District Bldg and had about 100 hostages in 1977(Jimmy Carter actually negotiated with them). About 60% of the department were former Army and Marine types with at least one tour in VN. I started out walking a beat in the Ghetto, no radio, 1 SW .38,(18 rnds 158 grain round nose bullets) 1 pair handcuffs, nightstick and a blackjack. Communication was via callboxes on the streetcorners. First thing you learn is not to lock anybody up in the middle of the block, you'll have to fight him all the way to the call box. We were expected to become part of the neighbor hood. Crimes were solved by communication with folks in the neighborhoods. The tendency for cops to become more and more military seems to have begun with the war on drugs and the infusion of Federal aid. In 1977 a group of Hanafi Muslims took over the District Bldg. They held about 100 hostages less than 2 blks from the Whitehouse. During the initial takeover 1 student reporter was killed, 2 cops were wounded, Marion Barry was shot in the chest and my partner grabbed his ankles and rushed him down 2 flights of marble stairs(DC Police got its biggest raise in history following that) to save his life. That vwas the end of the casualties. During the next three days DC police officers with mdl 70, .270's (w/iron sights) , 870 pump shotguns and 6 shot.38 cal revolvers held the terrs at bay in the city council chambers with no further injuries. I think I saw two Uzi's and officers on the outside had sniper rifles w/ telescopic sights. A big part of the success was keeping the FBI out of it.
I think the appearance of overwhelming firepower and the military appearance of SWAT teams etc has reached a point of dimishing returns. The WTO riots you mentioned in Seattle. I live across the ditch from Seattle and it was an abysmal showing by the cops. You might notice that DC has many demonstartions each year. Demonstration routes are planned, at each intersection part of the group is forced down another side street. The crowd is continually broken into smaller and smaller groups with routes that never intersect. This is not rocket science but, it does take planning and patience. It seems the police attitude has changed to more of one of confrontation. The Feds have a hand in this. They will come into town, kick ass, stir up the locals and leave the local cops to clean up the mess. I suspect that after a while it is easier to stay in the confrontation mode. If you go that route, it is better to look like a military unit than a group of cops.
9/11 has given a lot of folks who wannbe Rambo but, still want to go home at night, drink a few beers and chase the wife around the kitchen the opportunity to play dress up without have to absorb the other lessons.

I would think it would be natural, especially for combat vets, to have some carry over when they went to LEO. The people I'm talking about have never been in the military, and I get the impression they did LEO instead of. I could be wrong about that. They are young guys. I haven't heard females or older guys doing it much. And not so much from the larger cities.

They seem to have GI Joe fever, while they have many fine role models from within the LEO files.

The situation you mentioned in DC would to me be a good case for temp suspending Posse Comitatus. Known terrorist group, etc.

Interesting observations about the neighborhoods and community policing.

NDD:

I see alot of the same around where I live/work. There is a large SWAT/CERT team for both the county Sheriffs Dept and the City PD. Most of the guys on the teams, that I have noticed, are not PMS, but are those that chose LE instead, were unable to join or whatever. There is the exception but they are few and far between. The guys here still work a normal shift unlike the ones in large cities where SWAT is their full-time assignment. Nonetheless they are dedicated to their 'Mission' if one arises. The guys are always out PT-ing in the park in the mornings, doing formation runs, singing cadences. There is a small MOUT facility where they do CQC and they are always bragging about this warrant or that bust.

I have worked with them on several occasion and they all have an attitude similar to that of some Regiment guys I know. They think they are the know all end all. And they throw the, 'I'm SWAT' around like its akin to SF, Rangers, Force Recon, SEALS. I have actually talked to a few who believe they are just as good at CQB/MOUT as their military counterpart.

It is quite a strange thing to see.

Well, I think you have to expect a certain amount of bravado especially amongst youngsters. When I was in the 82nd Airplane Gang, one of our favorite things was to catch a leg walking through the Division area. In the Quiet Professionals, it wouldn't occur to me to even say much to one.

The part I don't understand is why they don't do their own thing instead of trying to be psuedo-military. Make up their own language, etc.

I don't really have a problem with the weapons, I would hate for them to be outgunned. But you can't become an Operator by calling yourself one. And like Noslack said, Storm Trooper gear doesn't facilitate access by the public. This is going to sound bad, but I also don't think you can compare enemies like a lot of them try to do. I know police work, especially in a large city, can be very dangerous. But the FARC, AQ, Abu Sayef are professional terrorists. Scum yes, but professional. And there's a difference to me in busting into Billy Bob's trailer to serve a meth warrant and busting into a hotel in Mog to serve an Executive Order.

Maybe its just me, but I don't see the need for the over compensation. Could be its a wartime thing and they feel left out?

NDD, community policing ifn its done right is somewhat akin to putting an A team in a small vill. You have to be partr of the community to help them. With cops all riding around in cars and dressed up likeninja Turtles, it is difficult to get to know the people you are sworn to help!

The FD does not have to be on station for serving an Exec Order but we do for the other. ;)

I know this image isnt supposed to be humorous, so I am sorry. You guys are cracking me up.

Great posts.

Didn't you sign some Army papers? Then quit talking about fire trucks and "we" in the same sentence.

"We" don't need fire trucks because we don't set shit on fire on accident. Its always on purpose.:D

I'm of the opinion that if you have enough air to sing, you need to run faster.

I am in complete agreement with my esteemed colleague from 10th Group.

Tell them to shut up and run really fast.

a.) We was referring to Firefighters

b.) On purpose huh...apparently you have never been witness to a meth lab explosion, up close and personal like. Nasty, very nasty.

FWIW, I dont know about the protocols elsewhere, other than CFD and FDNY, but whenever the PD or SO here serves a warrant at a meth lab EMS, FD and HAZMAT are all present.

Thats all neither here or there though. Back to subject of discussion. I have no idea why they feel the need to call themsleves "operators." I laugh and joke about it here at the station all the time and it has gotten me into some deep crap before with a few of them. They get over it though.

Alright NDD, you said you wanted to fight and it looks like everyone is going to get on your "team" so I will play the other side. My group will be called the STFU (Serious Trouble Friggin Understanding U) :D


STFU feels these comments show us that there is a little deficiency in the prevalence of "quiet professionals" in the military. IF you are confident in your skills, training, and unit's special capabilities then why do you feel the need to take offense to someone using the term "operator"? It can be viewed as quite juvenile and unprofessional for educated, trained, and truly experienced men to care about whether one group or another is referred to in conversation.

Operator is not SF specific. It has been a "cool" guy word that has been used to describe some of the best soldiers in the world, but it also has other more general descriptive tones in non-military circles. FWIW- the SF command did NOT create the term for the exclusive use to describe SOF qualified personnel. If anything, it was first commonly used to describe a woman connecting phone lines to connect the desired party to their location. We have no idea why a SF soldier would defend this words usage so strictly. It really makes the leadership of STFU disappointed to hear “gonna-be's“, “wanna-be's” and especially the “has beens/real deals” discuss how important it is to them that no one else is called "operators".

First off, until the candidates prove themselves through to the end, they are much closer to wannabe Rambos than someone who simply "chases his wife around" or serves on a SWAT team. Let me say, we have no doubts as to James chances in becoming an exceptional SF soldier. This isn't a shot at him... We think the guy is top notch and should have the highest chances of making it due to his professionalism and dedication. However, it still makes us disturbed to hear how threatened it makes people feel when someone takes one of the non unit specific cool-by-association terms and uses it for another purpose/group.

Remember, you are doing your profession (SF soldiers) for the right reasons (not to be Rambo or call yourself cool terms) and at the highest level of any organization. You have the best training of any group in the world. That makes you comparable to no group, foreign or domestic, in the skill sets you have learned/trained/mastered. Why demean yourself by taking offense to other groups that are trained/selected/utilized for a totally different role? They still have demands for unit integrity and therefore the use of "special" names. We would like to think a SF soldier is a LOT more than just an operator.

We are more impressed by a soldier that simply nods, maybe smirks, and then moves on to what is important for him in the real world. At the most, we would expect a short "it's not the same, but it really doesn't matter to me" type statement. We can't imagine the TS or Reaper getting into a petty quarrel over someone using the term operator UNLESS he or his group was trying to insinuate they were a SF soldier. However, this thread is not addressing SF posers, it is focused on SWAT or other domestic LE type units that call themselves "operators".
In our opinion, they have every right to call themselves operators and it is completely legitimate to do so .
Show me in this MW dictionary definition where a SF soldier has a legitimate need/right to be defensive of this term. :

1A : one that operates : as a : one that operates a machine or device b : one that operates a business c : one that performs surgical operations d : one that deals in stocks or commodities
2 a : MOUNTEBANK, FRAUD b : a shrewd and skillful person who knows how to circumvent restrictions or difficulties
3 a : something and especially a symbol that denotes or performs a mathematical or logical operation b : a mathematical function
4 : a binding site in a DNA chain at which a genetic repressor binds to inhibit the initiation of transcription of messenger RNA by one or more nearby structural genes -- called also operator gene; compare OPERON

We agree with NDD's last sentence in the above quote. We think it goes for the offended and our new charity cause SWI. (soldiers with insecurities) though.

Signed-
The Supreme commander of STFU
Sacamuelas (defender of the other side, devil's advocate, non-cop, admitted and proud wife chaser, and certified wish-I-was pistol marksman)

Alright, lets hear the flames...LOL

Well, I have to admit....I've been an operator. Military switchboard. When I was a cadet. And let me tell you... I was OK at it... well, I didn't suck too much. So, I figure that I've got the operator thing down pat... but still haven't figured out how to do the Peace Corps hippy thing. Maybe NDD can teach me. :D

It is Special Operations specific in this context.
Yes we did, in this context. Although not to describe all SOF personnel, only certain ones.
There is nothing more in my world than an Operator. An Operator is the epitome of the SF soldier.
Thank you for proving my point.

None of what you have said addresses the question of the Law Enforcement Special Operations Medic in the first post.

While STFU is focusing on what it percieves to be my petty complaint over the use of the word, I will attempt to further explain myself.

I, unlike STFU, believe language is important. I have learned over the years that if one listens closely, it is possible to determine intent from language. Language is the externalization of the internal thought process.

What concerns me is not the inappropriate use of one or two or ten words. What concerns me is the militarization of law enforcement. When you factor in the use of military terms to describe themselves, use of privately purchased military equipment, deployment of FBI Agents around the world when they can't handle their own agent reports at home, events such as Waco and Ruby Ridge, the Patriot Acts, etc., where you see me being petty, I see a trend.

Let's reverse the trend. Would you be indifferent if military personnel started referring to themselves as deputies? - its just a word. How about we put MILGATS in every major police department in the US? Soldiers wearing handcuffs and nightsticks? Badges? LEOs shouldn't be upset, that would be petty. They should quietly smirk.

No doctor, there is a reason why things are the way they are. There is a line that separates and for good reason. Now, at the time when everyone in government wants to "do something" to protect the homeland is in my opinion the time when the line must be most defined. Otherwise we run the risk of creating a police state because of just a word.

Police must understand very clearly what their duties and limitations are, just as soldiers must. And it begins, IMO, with language.

There is a reason for Posse Comitatus - a very good reason. But is a police state created by a militarized police force any less of a police state than one created by the military taking control of law enforcement functions?

You have heard Noslack's opinion on what this militarization does to good police work.

You may not think language matters. I think it matters a great deal. A guerrilla talks like a guerrilla for a reason. As does a soldier or a law enforcement officer.

So you see Doctor, you do me a disservice by thinking it is only a petty matter of a word. I thought you knew me a little better.


Oh and one last thing: If they want to be called operators, they can go to the fookin' school and suffer the hardships like Operators. They can dissolve their unions and associations and accept whatever pay the POTUS of the day wants to give them. They can deploy en masse on 20 December without knowing when they will be home. They can be moved in accordance with the needs of the department to whatever crappy assignment the department requires without consideration for needs of the family. They can go to 'Stan and fight terrorists only to come home and mop floors. Because "While you might have a Silver Star, you're still a PFC, so get the mop."

Yes, we make that choice. But I think that gives us the right to reserve a word or two if we choose to do so. I choose "Quiet Professional" "Operator" "Good in the woods" "Green Hat" "SF" and "Green Beret". They can have the other 5 billion trillion million words in the English language. And I'll even share some of my words with the other US Spec Ops troops and some foriegners if they're really good.

Deal?

Alright, It looks like STFU has found an audience. I must be pretty good at this. I think we as a group must fall somewhere near PETA in NDD's mind after that response. LOL

No need to call me that doctor word, it sounds so bad when you say it like that. LOL Don't make it personal, you specifically asked for a fight and noone seemed willing to have any fun. I was giving you what you wanted. Everyone is way to scared to argue with you with God powers and all. Let me reread your post and consult with my STFU cabinet members. I will respond ASAP.

Damn NDD... your touchy when the website goes down for 24 hours. LOL

GH- glad you saw some of the humor in my post.

signed- (per NDDs agreement in his last post)
SC of STFU
Sacamuelas ( aka a highly trained/educated "operator" that routinely works in multiple "operator"ies while completing several different objectives, and one who routinely performs detailed surgical "operations" during this work)

Alright...

For me its a serious attitude problem with them. They think they are much more than I, and many others, see them to be. They are LEO with a few skills more than patrol officers and a crap load of cool go-fast gear. Atleast here thats the way it works.

The medics are EMS paramedics who have been to either the CONTOMS course or the H&K course. They are not LEO who have been sent to medic school. Special Operations Medics (18-D, 91WF1, Seal Corpmen, TF-160 medics) training includes so much more than that of a SWAT Medic, therefor they should not share a common name that has been associated with the military.

I do not think myself anymore than a Smoke-Eater. I find the idea incredulous that you even think I see myself as more than a 'candidate.' I am fully aware of my place. Just because I am not an 'operator' does not preclude me from having an opinion about what their name means in the grande scheme of things.

James... Glad to have you jump back in. I expressed my specific opinion about you in my post. No need to feel attacked. I was just putting out another opinion that I have seen expressed on socnet and other boards. I thought your words were actually understated and self deprecating as to your future training and your current training level, and very professional I'll add... at the worst view my post as simply "pulling your chain".

If you wish, wait until the end of this thread and you will see how I personally feel about this issue. Until then, I have to keep my STFU brothers represented since there are no SWAT guys with attitudes similar to what NDD has described stepping up to argue their legitimacy.

I'm not taking it personal. And I would never take advantage of position in a discussion. Same same rules apply to me as they do everybody else when posting as far as I'm concerned. The TS is the power, I'm just the tip of the spear. LOL

Besides, I can kick your ass on this topic without the powers.:D

Here is my point of view from and LEO stand point...

NDD your right there is a lot of Officers out there that are on a SWAT team or think they should be on a SWAT team that have an inferority complex when it comes to the mil specifically SF type units. Granted none of these individual Officers will admit it, but I know these officers personally and can tell you that they wish they were running around the hills of A-stan shooting bad guys. However, at the same time these Officers will not make a personal sacrafice and join the military specifically an SF unit. The officers I know who do not have an inferiority complex who want to run around the hills of A-stan killing bad guys have quit the department and signed on the dotted line, and are now in the SF pipleine.

On a certain level I'm one of these Officers. I enjoy the "IDEA" of running around A-stan and shooting bad guys. But I know that dreams and reality are two totally different animals. I have a great life, I work mon-fri 7-5 with weekends off so I can chase the wife around the house. I don't have to stand on a hill at 10 thousand + feet elevation freezing my ass off wondering if I'm gonna catch a mortar today or not. Do I feel inferior to military or SF types like yourself? No, but I do admire what you and your brothers do, I know that I couldn't do it.

Back on topic.
These officers or SWAT type units who go around naming themselves "Operators" or "Special Operations Units" yada yada yada. Are on one hand wanna be SF types or SOF types but on the other hand are SF types (literal translation) they are the best from the LEO community (alteast we hope they are), they do have specialized training, of dynamic room entry, and some other needed skills. BUT they (as you know) are not by anyway shape or form on the same level as an SF soldier. Can these same officers kick ass and take names outside an urban enviornment? NOPE. Some can't even kick ass and take names in an urban enviornment.

The individuals I know who run around throwing out that they are on the SWAT team are the same individuals who do not make it on the SWAT team b/c of there bravado. They have the inablity to work to on a team. They are the same loud mouth guys that brag about everything they have done in life, you know the friggin idiot who won't shut up about how great he is...The empty can makes a lot of noise.

As far as equipment goes I now you don't have a problem with the weapons but daily uniforms I think we should wear polo type shirts with BDU bottoms. Why? b/c they are comfortable. I do not think agencies should be wearing woodland or desert BDU's for there normal uniform but I do think they should wear them if they are going to do a raid or something along those lines, b/c if someone gets away and it becomes a fugitive hunt you are already dressed for the occasion.

Like Noslack71 stated community policing is getting inside the community and getting to know people, using your inner personal communication to build rapport with as many people in the community as you can. It works for us, the problem in bigger cities is 3 fold 1. Officers have little time or training for community policing. 2. Agencies do not have officers working the same neighborhoods day in day out year after year. 3. Younger officers (my generation 21-33) have little patience for community policing they don't give a damn about the community they just want the next addernaline rush, or to bullshit with there buddies.

Okay last but not least entire Agencies are to fault for alot of your gripps 1. for allowing there SWAT teams to be called "Spec Ops whatever" or for the officers to be called an "Operator" 2. As for continuation training goes that falls squarely on the administrations shoulders and there inability to offer continuation training. Cops love training but you have provide it, to make it interesting, and worth there time.

And don't even get me started on the FBI.

Has the level of viloence in the US increased or decreased with the creation of more SWAT teams carrying MP5's and other high speed,low drag gear? At one time, a beat cop was the best job in American law enforcement. The cop knew evryone on his beat,we always left a bookie, a bootlegger/pot dealer and a hooker more or less alone. They were great sources of information. We knew who the bad guys were, what there MO's were and someone usually told us if they made a score or, were planning something. We went to bat for the folks on the beat and when we were getting our ass kicked in the middle of the block someone called 911 or came out and helped us. People use to call operators to get a cop or firefighter to help them. I never heard the term used in relation to an SF soldier until the mid 80's. Seems to me that became the in term among the Brits. Why oh why our SOF community would copy anything from the Brits is beyond my humble pay grade.
The orginial question is does this militarization of emergency services help America? My vote is No! It only separates the people from the cops. Remember Mao, the guerilla swims in the sea of the people. Most criminal activity(except sex crimes) by nature are guerilla activities.SWAT has great intentions but, its very nature and logistics requires maintaining distance from the community. That seems like adding more and more conventional forces to fight the "G" in VN.

What brought this on, NDD? Have you been jailed recently? :D

I would guess this is the reason the larger departments such as LAPD, LASO, NYPD, CPD, etc... have dedicated SWAT teams. This keeps the teams concentrated on training and operations instead of using patrol officers to fill both functions.

I, for one, understand Posse Comitatus and do not want to see the US Army involved in attacking US citizens here at home.

The militarization of local LE is a big mistake. When the only tool you have is a hammer, all problems tend to look like nails.

RL, have liberal aliens taken over your thoughts, or are you in some kind of trial funk?

TR

Did I leave a message on your answering machine? LOL

Smokin' Joe, that's all I'm saying. I know a lot of experienced LEOs that aren't like what I'm describing. They are very professional. I'm talking mostly about the younger guys and from what I've seen, they're mostly from mid-sized cities.

ROTFLMAO!

Seriously, I'm totally in favor of eliminating many protections for criminal defendants, but there is a line I won't cross. I worked for a senior Reagan administration official who was indicated in the Wedtech scandal. He was convicted by a DC jury -- hardly of his peers -- and lost just about everything in the process of getting the conviction reversed by the DC Circuit. It was a BS case brought by a far-left special prosecutor who was out to get this guy because he was close to Reagan.

Let's not forget what you guys are fighting for. Rights for criminal defendants are part of it, even if there have been some decisions that have gone too far. And Padilla should fry too.

NDD is making good sense and a really good point. However, could it be that LEO see themselves as the first line of defense against terrorists both foreign and domestic. I believe it's easy for police officers to get caught up in a seige mentality, and no wonder - their fellow countrymen are the ones who present the greatest dangers to them.

I can see why SWAT Squad is a better name than the Tinkerbell Team, but when you come right down to it does it matter as long as the job gets done. Are SWAT guys operators in the military sense of the word? Is the Rapid Deployment Force made up of operators? Would Special Forces still be special if they were called, oh maybe (howler monkeys;))Unique Teams.

One of the most interesting parts of the hanafi incident was watching our bosses tell the FBI to piss off. We were two blks from the Feebs HQS and they were literally standing on our perimeter with all of their HRT team gear. We (the DC police) would not let them play. I think that had a lot to do with a peaceful outcome. The Feds feel no accountability to local neighborhoods. I have always been leery of getting federal funds into SWAT. Once you take the money, they tend to call the tune that is best for Wash DC not the locality. We had an incident up here not to long ago. A Camboadian immigrant in his 50's got into it with local cops. Next thing he's surrounded by guys in you cant see me rags with automatic weapons. The camboadian ends up dead and the cops shot another cop. Does anyone think that Camboadian may have flashed to an earlier time in his life. Found out later he had worked with US forces fighting Communists. That is the kind of info a beat cop would have known. In our rush to standardize a show force it seems that people are expecting a big SWAT presence and are preparing for it. The level of violence with just continue to increase here at home until someone is smart enough to ratchet things down and take a few breaths.
Oh and by the way RL I sat in front of a couple of DC juries and if it were not for a couple of smart judges I probably would be sharing a cell with NDD.

Just saw this one reference buzz words for operations:

Blue - Law Enforcement
Green - Military
Blue-green - Military peacekeeping
Green-blue - Rural/Narcotics Law Enforcement (erradication?)
In recent years the colors blur together

I'm disappointed that magenta, Psy War's favorite color, hasn't been included yet. I think there is some discrimination against peach as well. I always liked the color peach.

eye receptor cones have absorption peaks near 565 nm (red), 535 nm (green) and 445 nm (blue).

I'm late to the party......

NDD, in your first post you mentioned

"Another case is the death and wounding of the Robin Sage guys. I don't know all the details, but there is a problem there. We've been working that area non-stop since 1952. There's no excuse."

From what I read on this it was a tragic event caused by the lack of common sense on the trainee's fault. (Attempting to conceal weapons and then attempting a gun grab of the officer.) Lack of communication between the department and the military didn't help either.

Not trying to stir old wounds. NDD, are you privy to info on this situation that I am not? And from your post you believe this situation to be the fault of the LEO's?

Would you like to discuss this here or in a new thread? Any other questions you might have for someone with "coperator" experience? :D


Surgicalcric-

I don't really know you, so forgive me if I've taken some of your posts the wrong way. I detect a definite anti-leo slant to a number of your posts. This really isn't too surprising, you being a firefighter and all.

What Regiment are you referring to?

Kinda seems like a condescending, ignorant statement from someone with your limited military background, but what do I know? Just another dumb ex-cop/Ragnar guy.

Sure, we can discuss it here.

What I am saying is that this is not a heavily populated area. But what population there is sees Ft. Bragg as the focal point. In those hills, people have been supporting and participating in those exercises for years.

The SWC guys know a lot of them by name and go deer hunting, etc. Its not like its Seattle or NYC.

So when you are in that area. and see young males in good shape with short hair, the first thing you should think is "Robin Sage". Not terrorism, not drug dealers, not anything else.

Now I'm not saying you assume that and approach with out caution. What I am saying is you approach ensuring they understand you are not part of the play of the problem.

Yes, there was probably a comms mistake. But it didn't have to end in the deaths of two soldiers. I don't know anything other than what was reported in the press, but this isn't the first time this has happened.

I can't remember a soldier ever shooting an LEO, its probably happened, but I don't remember it.

What I'm saying is like others have said, they don't know their surroundings or their situation. And people are getting killed because of it.

What I'm saying is, you don't look for zebras in a horse corral in Montana. If you're in Hoffman and it looks like a soldier and acts like a soldier - its probably a soldier. not an Islamic terrorist.

Edit to add - if you'll read my post, I don't not blame the LEO. I don't know who is at fault. I said "There's no excuse and there's a problem." You don't agree or just assumed I was cop bashing?

NDD,

I don't know all the specifics, and having never been there, I don't have the insight that you do on it. I see what you are saying, and I also agree that it was a very sad, tragic outcome.

For the sake of discussion, I could speculate that possibly the Deputy thought the two were white supremacists?

Here's the CNN article I found.

cnn

I found this last part disturbing.

Moore County authorities were not scheduled to be part of Saturday's exercise, Kolb said.

"Moore County has never participated in such an exercise and was never told of any such training scenarios," the sheriff's department statement said. "This is a tragic incident ,and our heart-felt prayers go out to the families of all involved."

If this is true, it's pretty sad the lack of communication.


Without divulging opsec, are you or anyone else at liberty to discuss what instructions Robin Sage trainees are given in regards to LE contact while on exercises?

I know in the two JTF-6 missions I did, we were told that all local LE agencies had been notified of our presence. But we were also instructed to comply with the instructions of any leo to the letter.

Officials at Fort Bragg said Robin Sage has a 30-year history in central North Carolina and a tradition of involvement with the civilian community. All candidates for the Green Berets must participate in the 38-day exercise, an unconventional warfare scenario set in the fictional country of Pineland.

Local civilians are enlisted in role-playing, as are non-special operations soldiers from the U.S. Army base. All ammunition used in the exercise is blank, Army officials said, adding there was no safety risk to civilians or their property.

from your article.

Two studs in an unmarked car in Robbins, North Carolina. Think he ran the plates before he pulled them over? Probably a rental on a government card.

Butler was unaware the exercise was underway, while the soldiers believed the deputy was part of the training exercise, according to the sheriff's department statement.


This is what I'm talking about, right here. If I'm this deputy, there's no way in hell I'm not going to know about a scheduled exercise involving dozens of guys with M16s running around in my county. If the Army didn't tell the locals, maybe they should have. But this guy didn't make an effort to find out either.

This is the same article I saw. It doesn't give nearly enough information to find out what happened.

Unfortunately, just like the case of a guy in my company, we'll never know but one side of the story, becuase the other side doesn't have any witnesses.