question of 1969-1970 SFQC
 

Hello all,
My question is in regard to 1969-1970 SFQC:
If a person entered SFQC during these years,finished phase 1 and then either left training or was asked to leave training would that person:
Be allowed to wear his Green Beret with a Crest only,no flash after leaving SFQC ?

Would that person be allowed to volunteer to go to Vietnam from SFQC and be allowed to wear the Green Beret with Crest,No Flash,while on leave ,and then on to Vietnam ?

Would that person not have been returned to their Home /Mother Unit and request deployment to Vietnam from there ?

I ask as I have been told that wearing the Beret and Crest,without Flash,(or candy stripe), was standard protocol,(as per REGS.), for that time when leaving or asked to leave in the middle of SFQC training .

I find it hard to believe that this would be allowed as it was always you either are Special Forces ,or you are not. If you didn't graduate SFQC you were not Special Forces,period.

Here is the picture in question:
http://army.togetherweserved.com/arm...rson&ID=264369

Thank you in advance for any help regarding this question.

Jim

The Infantry Cord wasn't authorized for wear while assigned to SF (Green Beret and SF Oval in pic)

http://armyphotos.togetherweserved.com/390297_med.jpg

I am from that era. We were not allowed to wear the Beret until completion of Phase I and then only with the crest (no flash). At any point during the subsequent 2 training phases we did not complete the training (voluntarily or involuntarily) we would have been re-assigned to a regular army unit. No Beret wearing after that point. The flash was awarded upon assignment to an active SF unit. Failure to complete Phase I would not result in the wearing of the Beret for any reason.

I am curious though, why do you ask? The link in your post is to a deceased veteran. What interest do you have in a deceased veteran's creds/claims, etc.? As a Vietnam War veteran myself, I am not particularly interested in discrediting a deceased Veteran for any reason. It seems to me that you are questioning the deceased Veterans claims. Am I correct? So please explain the reason for your questions?

I went through the "Q" during this exact period.

#1 You could only wear the Beret/w Crest as long as you were still assigned to Training Group.

#2 When you left Training Group, if you were not a Graduate, you reverted back to the Standard Issue Airborne Headgear that the rest of the Airborne wore, you NO LONGER had any attachment to "The Beret"!!

#3 You would have been sent to where ever Mother Army needed and it may not have been an Airborne Unit!!

Any other Questions, give a shout!!
Martin

Hello Trapper John,
I ask because the site was posted to be looked at and read. When I saw the picture posted on Together We Served,I asked the person who posted it,another former Green Beret,why he put that picture up,as it was known that the person pictured never went past Phase one.
He said it was to show that the person pictured was a phase one graduate wearing his Green Beret Home on leave prior to being sent to Vietnam.
When I asked how he could wear it at all due to the fact that the person pictured left or was asked to leave training I was told it was per Regualtions at the time that he was allowed to wear it.

I am not trying to discredit the wearer,as he finished phase one and moved on from SFQC ,went to Vietnam ,was wounded and sent home, as a decorated Veteran.
I am just asking about wearing of the Green Beret and Crest after leaving training as being part of the Regulations at the time.

I had never heard of that and decided to ask here,where people would know the answer and not give an off handed reply they were not sure of.

I remember the candy stripes under the crest for unqualified people assigned to SF Units ,but had not heard of the crest alone as authorized head gear ,especially not when one walked away or was sent away from training.

I hope that answers your question,and I Thank You and the others for your replies, Much appreciated.

Jim

From the pic and what you've said about it:

• He completed Infantry BCT/AIT (blue Infantry Cord).
• He completed the BAC (Basic Parachutist Badge).
• He completed PH1 (beret w/crest - SF oval).
• He failed to complete either PH2 or PH3.
• He went home on PCS leave enroute to RVN.
• He wore his SFTG beret on PCS leave enroute to RVN.

What it means:

• He knowingly continued to wear his SFTG beret against regulations to "profile" for the ffolkes/girls/friends back home because it was so much "cooler" than a blank "overseas cap" or "service hat."
• He was wrong and knew it...but it was not uncommon, either, for soldiers to do such a thing - we called 'em "PX warriors" back then and "posers" or "wannabes" today.
• He is not being truthful about it to you. :mad:

And so it goes...

Richard :munchin

When, if ever was the INF cord authorized for wear by soldiers assigned to SFTG?

It wasn't.

Richard :munchin

I remember reading about Echanis in SOF magazine in the early 80's. IIRC he killed himself and a couple others by trying to throw a live hand grenade out of an airplane in Nicaragua. He was also one of the people involved in the men who stare at goats thing.

Yep, he sure did. Was a "Mercenary" for a while before his death. Didn't know it was a grenade that killed him though. Thought it was an SA-7 that hit the plane? :confused:

Love the hands in the pockets and the porn stache. You old timers had no discipline,,,,,

Was he a protege of Guy Savalle?

Love the hands in the pockets and the porn stache. You old timers had no discipline,,,,,

Us old timers all had porn staches.

So much hate here... What did the Porn Stash do to you......:p

Hey now??? Do you see any porn-staches in this pic? ;)

Ooops! Now porn stash - that's a different matter all together:D

I do believe that Lyman was one of our instructors at MedLab in 75-76 and Weiler was my Senior Medic at Tolz in 77-78.

The way I remember it was that they were trying to bomb the Sandanista's from an air plane by pulling the pin on a grenade and dropping them in a mason jar before throwing them out the window. He either dropped the jar or a live grenade and it detonated killing all aboard. His devotees claim that it was a bomb that was rigged with an altitude sensitive detonator. Who knows what the truth really is.

I honestly don't know.

I have to join the defense of the "porn stash". I grew mine as soon as I graduated from Tng Gp (1971) and have worn it ever since.

As for having no discipline, I disagree. We were a bunch of bandits in those days (at least us younger guys) but we fought a war being lost by our poli-whores in Washington, some of which are still around today. We wore the Green Beret with pride inspite of the media and many politicians. We went where we were told and did what we were told to do. We watched the miltary being torn apart and still soldiered on.

We were professionals. Many got out but some of us stayed and carried on. SF disciipline is less the parade ground discipline and more the individual personal discipline that we don't see that much any more.

As for the hands in the pockets, I remember standing around with the battalion command group (Bn Cdr, XO, CSM, myself and others) on the drop zone with ALL of us with our hands in our pockets!

Now that's a visual image for ya:eek: Sure you don't mean "pornstache":D

porn stash

'60's- '70's they were call Womb Brooms!! :D

BMT

Still have mine! :p

Mine turned white for some reason. Must have been the bleach...

Out in the sun too much
 

You must spend too much time in the sun like me. Mine turned white also - well, more a dirty gray.

Dang mine too. Must be all this Florida sun I run around in.

Back to the photo ...
 

Looks like an 8th group patch behind the wings, another no no. :mad:

While in training group one jerk was putting E-5 stripes and a majors pins on his uniform before going on leave, said he was a "Sergeant Major", his buddies stopped him, we all had a good laugh, then he failed the Q course. :D

Not an 8th SFGA flash but the branch unassigned colors jump wings oval we used to wear in Group and while going through SFTG unless you were assigned to the 10th SFGA or IMA which had different ovals.

Richard :munchin

How could you have served in 6th Grp and not know that the blue/yellow wing background/oval was worn by all groups but the 10th?

"12B4S, 1st SF 1969-1971. 6th Group, 8th Group"

I'm not sure WHEN you served, but, the oval patch behind the jump wings matched your assigned unit patch on the beret, in 1969-71. :p

Unless you were in the 10th or IMA, the oval was the teal blue/gold one for the 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th, and 8th SFGAs, and the 46th SFC and DetKorea.

Richard :munchin

I stand corrected.
 

I was going from memory, I'll take a seat in the bleachers.

Got to training group Spring 67 just out of Infantry AIT and BAC.

Had to give up the pretty blue cord and brass trim for the plain unassigned stuff of SF.

Lot of us youngsters only had a year or so in and you saw lots of funny things going home on leave that would not have gotten far on the hill.

Hands in pockets were known as Air Force Gloves and would get you 20 likely as not.

Wearing a beret was not a status of training-it was SF or not.
A "terminee" was not authorised a beret.

Some guys flunked out, some screwed up, and some others left for personal reasons.
There was actually a waiting list for 5th Group slots in those days.
Very few went straight to 5th from SFTG. but some did.

I got back in 70 and SF grads were stacked on top of each other in the 7th-5th was downsizing and they were all dressed up with no place to go,
Most had been to every available school, including Ranger, just to keep them busy.
They all had real bad atitudes and it was not a good environment.

Funny remembering that stuff.

I believe he was killed before the staring at goats thing occurred. I also understood you killed himself with a dropped grenade in a helicopter.

As far as the picture, he is wrong in all ways. :munchin

In order to give free mustache rides, you MUST have a porn stash!

The Rest of the Story...
 

Photo is of Michael D. Echanis. It was taken by his family the day he left from Casual Leave (1 July 1969 - 28 July 1969) at home (Ontario, Oregon) for Vietnam.

Per his 2-1 Echanis entered service on 12 May 69 and attended Basic Training beginning on 19 May 69 at Fort Ord, California (Co D 3d BDE).

He then attended Advanced Individual Training at Fort Gordon where he was awarded his 11 Bravo MOS (hence the Blue Infantry Cord). He cross-trained at Fort Gordon as an Infantry Direct Fire Crewman, as well.

Echanis then attended and completed ABN School at Fort Benning, GA (4th Student BN (ABN). His ABN Student # was 534.

On 25 October 69 with a Duty MOS of 09B2P he reported to CO D, USASFTNGGRP (ABN) at Fort Bragg. He attended and, as recently learned, SUCCESSFULLY completed Phase One of the SFQC on 21 JAN 1970.

However, Mike's primary goal (as a 19 year old) was to get to Vietnam and try to learn what had happened to his cousin, the CPT Joseph Echanis, whose F4 had crashed in Laos in November of 69.

Upon completion of Phase One Echanis volunteered for duty in Vietnam.

He (and this is where the picture comes in) remained assigned to Special Forces and his 2-1 reads he was now a Replacement assigned to USASFCTNGGRP (ABN).

After Casual Leave Mike arrived in Vietnam as a replacement SF replacement on 3 FEB 1970. He was recruited and assigned to CO C, 75th RGR INF on 23 MAR 1970. His MOS was then listed as 11B1P and his principle duty was that of Scout-Observer.

Echanis took every opportunity to get where he felt he might learn something about Joseph Echanis - and LRP with CO C, 75th INF seemed to fit.

On May 6, 1970, the Daily Log for Company C (RANGER), 75th Inf., Engineer Hill, Pleiku, VN states the following:

"1900 - Company had one truck ambushed today at An Khe Pass. Suffered 7 friendly WIA's. Got four confirmed KIA's. Negative Operations."

Gerald F. Colvin, CPT, Operations, signed the log entry.

Per the August 5, 1970 Company C (RANGER) 75th Infantry (ABN) "Operational Report - Lessens (sic) Learned, Period Ending 31 July 1970, Paragraph B -

"During the month of May, the company conducted 73 operations in twenty-three operational days resulting in 27 contacts, 32 enemy sightings, 34 enemy KIA, and 14 weapons. Friendly losses were 2 US KIA and 14 US WIA.

"The high casualty figure was mainly due to a convoy ambush in the An Khe Pass on 6 May."

The report is signed by Major Donald L. Hudson, Commanding.

In the aftermath of that ambush on May 6th, Mike Echanis was awarded the Bronze Star with Valor Device (General Orders Number 1810, dated 15 July 1970, Department of the Army, Headquarters, 173rd ABN BDE).

His award narrative states Echanis was wounded four time during the ambush but "continued to fight until the beleagured truck was relieved. Specialist Echanis's aggressive spirit and undaunted courage were decisive in preventing the annhilation of the truck and its personnel."

Mike was also awarded the Vietnamese Cross of Gallanrty for this action (with Palm Device) and the Purple Heart.

Orders for his and all those others wounded in the ambush were cut on 7 May 1970, the day after the ambush. They were cut at Headquarters, 17th Field Hospital, VN (General Orders Number 104).

The PH for those Rangers assigned to CO C, 75th RANGERS include:

Roberts, Eddie L., SSG (2nd Award)
Carr, Alfred L., SP4
Echanis, Michael D, SP4
Ladeaux, Robert W, SP4
Laughton, Mark E, PFC

The driver and assistant driver of the vehicle, also wounded, were:

Lewis, James H, SP5 (597th Transportation Company)
Baker, Gary L, SPF (597th Transporation Company)

Major Clarence A Martin Jr, Acting Commander, signed the orders.

Echanis was transferred from the 17th Field Hospital on 17 May to the 249th General Hospital in Japan where his lower right leg was saved from amputation.

He was transferred to Letterman Army Hospital on June 3, 1970 for roughly 7 months of intensive in-patient and then out-patient care and treatment.

On 18 December 1970 he was medically retired with a 100% VA disability rating.

Echanis would return to the Special Forces community in 1976 as the senior civilian instructor for the new Hwa Rang Do military combatives program he designed. And yes, I have all of the relevant documentation for that.

On September 8, 1978 he, Chuck Sanders (recently retired from the Army/SF) and Bobby Nguyen were killed in an aviation crash near Lake Nicaragua. I have the US and NIC documentation on that event, as well.

All three were returned and buried / cremated (Chuck Sanders) in Ontario, Oregon.

GEN McMull, then SF CDR at Bragg, directed then MSG Ivan Jakovenko (who was very close to Mike and Chuck at Bragg) and was the Team Sergeant of ODA 594 (SCUBA) -

To provide a formal SF escort / color guard at Mike and Chuck's services.

Jake described this to me himself.

At the conclusion of Mike's ceremony MSG Jakovenko, SSG James Lally, SSG Roger Bascomb and SFC Thomas Powell filed by Mike's casket and placed their berets upon it. These were then buried with Mike. Also a pall bearer was former POW James Jackson, who was very close to Mike at Fort Bragg.

On February 11, 1971, the Echanis Family received a Presidental Certificate from then President Jimmy Carter. It reads -

"The United States of America honors the memory of Michael D. Echanis - This certificate is awarded by a grateful nation in recognition of devoted and selfless consecration to the service of our country in the Armed Forces of the United States."

In 2013, Echanis was inducted into Black Belt Magazine's Hall of Fame as Weapons Instructor of the Year.

In short, Echanis was authorized to wear his beret with crest when reporting for duty in Vietnam as he was assigned to Special Forces as a replacement. He did successfully complete Phase One. He was authorized to wear the blue infantry cord on his uniform (I wore mine when I reported to SFQC in 1980 and thereafter, as appropriate).

He volunteered and was accepted as a LRP/RGR by Co C, 75th INF (RGR) and was wounded with that unit (after saving 6 other members in the ambush per his award narrative) and was awarded the PH by the unit per the orders cited.

SGM (Retired) Jakovenko and selected members of his ODA, as named, paid our community's respects to Mike, Chuck and the families per GEN McMull.

We might agree if Echanis was less than what he clearly was Jake and the others would not have been sent nor left their berets on Mike's casket in honor of him.

And "mercenaries" don't recieve such attention much less a presidential certificate after the fact.

There's much more about Mike and what he really was doing in NIC and for who - but that's another chapter in his Life story that includes then SWC CDR Colonel Charlie Beckwith:D

Rest in peace, Mike.

Richard is correct.
You terminate, you give up your beret, period.
You don't wear infantry ropes with SF Uniform.
I attended the Ft Gordon Infantry AIT course in 1967.
It was oriented for airborne volunteers and run like jump school
The course separated us into 3 groups, 11B riflemen, 11C Mortars, and 11H 106RR shooters. One section each, only.
We were randomly given to one of those sections upon arrival.
When we graduated we were put on busses to Ft Benning.

There was a lot of hi-jacking at replacement centers in VN. I know SF guys with SF orders who ended up in other units-didn't pass go, didn't collect $200.
I'll tell you something about those VN after action reports and enemy casualty reports-don't believe any of them-how do you kill 34 guys and capture 14 weapons?
Charlie did try and recover weapons before casualties, though.

And so it goes...
 

Those are the facts, the documents, the history from FOIA and National Archives.

The from the Echanis Family.

And it explains the origin of the photo posted on this thread.

It's pretty interesting how some only focus on "wear of the beret" or other cosmetics -

Glossing over what the guy's actual combat record and awards / decorations.

Does anyone with the E/C Company Ranger Association know if any of the other four rangers wounded with Echanis are still alive? That would be interesting to know.

I concur with Art Gitlin, long time Sigung and one of the old San Francisco school of martial artists and instructors "back in the day"..

"I never like discussing Mike because it drives me crazy to hear all these people who now claim to have known or trained with him and so on. I've had people mention his name and say, "Ah, he wasn't so tough." Yeah, right. Now that he's dead everyone is willing to say how not so tough he was. It makes me sick, you know what I mean?" - Art Gitlin, February 1996, interview with Michael de Alba/Fighting Knives Magazine

SGM Jake Jakovenko (Retired) and Master Chief Bob Nissley, both who knew Echanis well, would agree.

Little known fact. After an H2H demonstration in Puerto Rico where Echanis and Jakovenko, according to Jake, beat the crap out of each other Echanis later contacted Grand Master Joo Bang Lee, described the event and recommended Jake be promoted to Black Belt in Hwa Rang Do. Which he was. Prior to that Jakovenko was a brown belt in jiu jitsu.

Echanis was tough enough to both earn and give rank when he worked for both our community and Naval Special Warfare (ST2) in '76/'78.

Just a neat historical note.