Marines Pose with SS Flag
 

No , it means scout snipers. Really!
And we're off.:rolleyes:

I wonder if those jarheads even know what Schutzstaffel means. They should have used better judgement. In todays world everything must be politically correct.

Everybody knows what the Nordic-stylized Siegrunen and the SS stood for - and anybody remember the issues with neo-Nazi types in the military not all that long ago (hint: it was a BIG problem in the 82nd where avowed racists killed two black guys) - and now an American military unit displaying a banner which is the antithesis of what America stands for along with the American flag...:eek:

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
- Albert Einstein

I'd like to ask my dead uncle (who fought his way across Europe as an Infantry Platoon Sergeant in the 120th Infantry Regiment of the 30th Infantry Division) and my dead father-in-law (who did the same as a Platoon Leader in the 55th Armored Infantry Battalion of the 11th Armored Division) what they think of these guys and their 'cool' banner.

And so it goes...

Richard :munchin

Was embedded with the Marines for 13yrs and I have seen that symbol used 100 + times from Unit T-Shirts, Tatoos, Flags, ect. And I never saw or heard of a Sr. NCO or Officer complain about it. Just saying

This will seriously impact Marine recruitment efforts in the Jewish community.

This is the best part.
I guess you can be amazingly f***** up and stupid as long as you're naive.:confused:

Maybe it's a Department of the Navy thing. This is on their Naval Amphibious Base, Coronado:

A sniper buddy of mine and former Marine sniper instructor, warned the clowns in 1982 that it was a very bad idea. It disappeared for a while and came back. They knew damn well what it meant and were playing the asshole game.

Yep, Marines protecting themselves on an investigation. They knew. :munchin

.

When one puts a .50 cal round through someone's head at great distance, one must do it in an inoffensive manner. :rolleyes:

.

Just as a side note, the Navy has asked to build a Naval Infantry Corps to protect the ships. Interesting how they keep getting more money and we get less. :munchin :D

I'm sad to say that it's possible that most enlisted Marines couldn't tell you what the SS was or why its disgusting to use that logo. When I was in I saw that SS a few times and was told, "Oh, it means Scout/Sniper!" If I wasn't a history buff from a young age I would have been none the wiser. Never saw another nazi or race related logo or issue around the same guys and there were minority Marines who seemed oblivious to it as well.

I bet that most students in my university couldn't identify the SS symbol and Marines don't get any history education besides what the Corps deems necessary. If you consider what most Marines believe about their own history it's not to hard to figure out that they don't read many history textbooks.

As longrange pointed out, this has been around their community for a long time and I place the responsibility square on the brass.

Agree. A flag that damn big had to be seen by senior NCOs and officers at some point and they sure as hell should have known what it was.

Issue back open
 

http://news.yahoo.com/us-defense-chi...211906333.html

Sec Def told USMC "to re-investigate and take appropriate action against the Marine snipers who posed with a logo resembling a notorious Nazi symbol"

Head's are going to roll.

"The rapid-fire announcements came on the heels of demands from a leading Jewish organization and others for President Barack Obama to order an investigation into the incident and to hold the troops accountable"

Now I personally can see how SOME might not know what the SS stood for, but they damn sure will now. Not knowing has NEVER been an excuse.

Respectfully,
Tweeder

This is a waste of time.
 

"Not for any sinister or anti-Semitic calculation, but for the simple reason the acronym/letters SS fit nicely in identifying a Scout Sniper and generally because of a professional respect for the German military’s martial capabilities on the battlefield and not the politics of the Nazi fascist regime."

No one ever protested KIZZ. Paging Gene Simmons

Now that is an astounding lack of SA and historical perspective. :eek:

And so it goes...

Richard :munchin

I disagree with this quote completely.

Even if those Marines were trying to show respect for German military prowess during that specific time period, I would assume the Germans wouldn't take it kindly if those Marines waved that symbol while stationed in Germany in the present. Respect can be shown in many other, far more appropriate ways.

Maybe they thought it stood for SUPER STAR! Sad to say. But I would guess most in the pic have no idea about WWII history

This is on par with those idiots who decided to piss on the corpses of the enemy, and to FILM IT :mad:

Poor disply of tact, professionalism, and SA in both cases.

The SS administrated the entire Nazi fascist regime.

The Waffen SS? Ever heard of a place called Malmedy?

Most of these Marines probably only have a high school education, they are not very old and also while the runes are the same as the nazi SS, the flag is similar and not the same.

Runes (s) also looks like lightning bolts. The nazi was into anything that embellished their presentation. If anything it is not the smartest thing to do. More concerning is all the spin masters playing this for all they can get out of it. Just like the Marines pissing on the dead T-ban. Gunny should have taken care of it in house. A few days sand bagging or burning S-ters.

We live in such a distant society that we have the luxury to blow small issues way out of proportion. The most effective weapon the tangos have and it comes with all sorts of unwilling and willing allies is propaganda. Let's make a mountain out of a mole hill!

The saving grace of other wars was, we did not have the internet, we did not have all the electronic toys, and communication was slow.

I am more for supporting our people than chastising them. They job is crappy as it is. So they make mistakes?

The other difference in WWII, if the editors of the NYT published stuff then as they do today, my guess would be: Americans would storm their offices, tar an feather the editors and run them out of town on a rail.

No, they did not, although they were an inherently important part of it all.

Astounding! And I disagree.

We're supposed to be a professional military force representing the ideals of what is considered to be the greatest nation on this planet and its policies - not the overly idealized, misunderstood, and patently misrepresented actions of those of previous cultures. Declaring ourselves to be 'crusaders' or 'SS' or 'rebels' or such only detracts from our assigned mission(s), wastes valuable resources and limited energies, and encourages our enemies...both domestic and foreign...while frustrating our allies and NCA. It's time we grew up; realized the importance of such juvenile actions in hindering our progress in an e-world; and make sure we, our allies, and our enemies understand we will have little tolerance for such behaviors which are not reflective of who we truly are, profess to be, and seek to become.

Perception is reality out there - and it's been that way for quite awhile. This is LIFE...not some effin' video game.

Richard :munchin

Nope. There is no "saving grace" in not having journalism. Good reporting has an important role to play in our society and it's not the fault of the reporter when idiots throw puppies off of cliffs or pose with flags that "admire the martial qualities" of the nazi's.

I'm all for chastising any idiot who by his actions shames himself and his uniform. I just think that the major portion of the blame is on the leadership who for many, many years has permitted this in the Scout Snipers.

Absolutely, big boy world, big boy rules, this is the symbol of units which perpetuated racial genocide on an industrial scale and killed millions, not to mention many an American boy, brothers in arms to these Marines. Ignorance is not an excuse, what was going through the heads of senior NCO's and officers?

These Marines are tough men, who do a tough job, yet they might consider spending a day at Auschwitz, go to the rooms next to the hallway where there are thousands of baby shoes piled to the ceiling, lamps made out of human skin, and other examples of the evils humanity is capable of.

The American flag in that picture is truly the flag of hard men, our grandfathers who beat this evil.

Source is here.

With respect, this post suggests a double standard. Civilians are often excoriated on this BB and others like it for their increasing neglect of the concept of personal responsiblity. Yet, when members of the armed services make the choice to behave in ways inconsistent with the values of the American professions of arms, there are those who say isn't such a big deal.

Nevertheless, this incident is a big deal. Not the least because it demonstrates, yet again, the persistence of enduring myths in America about Nazism despite the diligent efforts of German historians to understand their own past.

Moreover, the following statement is a questionable (i.e. ahistorical) speculation.As D.M. Giangreco points out in his study of Operation DOWNFALL, numerous broadsheets published articles, editorials, and letters to the editor that raised questions about the armed forces notwithstanding the efforts of the federal government and the armed services to frame public perception of the war.

For better and for worse, the journalism played a significant role in shaping the perception of hard line militarists in Japan of America's will to fight, and the viability of continued armed resistance.*


__________________________________________________ __
* D. M. Giangreco, Hell to Pay: Operation DOWNFALL and the Invasion of Japan, 1945-1947 (Annapolis: Naval Institute Press, 2009).

I believe I have an idea of what a symbol is.

The "Lone Star" flag is a probable statement of pride in the culture now existing in Texas, to one person. Perhaps to another it is a "symbol" of killing indians, to another, it is a "symbol" of stealing Mexican land. Deciding what a symbol means to the person displaying it is an interesting evaluation of our own "baggage".

I have a baseball cap, sorta "Bad-a$$ed Vietnam Vet" type thing, and on it, you'd see a skull and crossbones. That does not mean that I am a pirate, nor that I am a member of the old SS Death's Head division, nor that I admire them.

A symbol means what the folks who display it feel that it means.

I understand the SA part of it. That makes it a bad call if it creates more hardship and death. Hearts and minds, got it, BTDT.

But some of us here seem close to declaring that the Marines displaying the SS symbol are praising the holocast when it's also possible they are saying "so bad-a$$ed you oughta shake in your boots when you see us".

Heck, for four years I wore an academy crest with an ancient Trojan helmet as the centerpiece of the field and I don't even LIKE condoms.

Symbols ?
 

Yesterday is History,
Tomorrow is a Mystery,
Today is a gift, That's why its called The Present,
Live and Savor every minute; because

THIS AIN'T NO DRESS REHEARSAL.....TK

My $.02
 

Perhaps in an alternate universe or if you live in a bubble. The power of symbols and perception in human society is a constant, for better or worse all of us are under constant scrutiny, with ramifications for our words and actions. I'm all for individuality, personal expression etc, but think this through. Consider a guy who flys a NAMBLA flag from his deck because he likes the colors, and wonders why his house keeps getting egged.

This type of logic turns into a slippery slope pretty quick, in theory these Marines could display a flag with UBL's visage on it, after all to some idiots UBL was "a rugged individualist who defied an empire." Better yet consider the coconut walking around Ft. Hood with a " Free Hassan" t-shirt, citing his admiration for religious conviction. Ramifications? The majority of people on this planet see the Nazi's as examples of pure evil, uniformed members of the US military should not be stirring up these perceptions of association with Nazi heraldry regardless of their intent.

I live next to MCBH and work on base, and from what I've observed me the snipers here kind of try to be controversial. From guys walking around with tons of tattoos of various tough guy cliches to various of tasteless insignias on their shirts they aren't afraid to SHOW it. But they've earned that right, and it helps their morale. When you actually talk to them they are really nice, and pretty humble.

I'm sorry, but the SS runes show no identification with the actual "martial capabilities" etc of the WWII war machine. The SS were a paramilitary that violated every rule in the book. You respect German snipers of WWII? Cool, there were many honorable units that didn't rampantly slaughter people in mass reprisal. Some of these men exhibited great moral courage in facing down both pressure from their own government and physical courage when facing the enemy. But for crying out loud, you are USMC, if you want cool factor, look no further than your very own marine raiders of WWII and other such similar units. Plus it would match up better with the blood dripping smiley face headshot shirt you are wearing. :rolleyes:

So what if they were ignorant because of their lack of education? Situational awareness is important! Little culturally insensitive things like that can eventually get you hurt. But you guys know all about that.

/End rant.

Hate to say this but, it's one controversy after another with the military and it doesn't do the US military any good whenever these sorts of incidents/stories get out...some common sense is needed especially with the amount of media spotlight there is in today's society.

Common sense needed.

I wonder how hard it will be for the Sgt Maj of the Marine Corps to investigate the use of the SS bolts when he himself has it tattooed on his leg. Its been the symbol for USMC Snipers for a long time, it has nothing to do with Nazi's at this point, it's simply part of the Marine Sniper sub-culture. The SS also used a deaths head skull and bones pin as part of their uniform, should we outlaw that as well? I guess I'm just getting tired of the MSM pissing on the Marine Corps every time they get a chance. Yeah we make mistakes that some may find offensive or politically incorrect but we also do a job that most would never sign up to do. Dig deep enough and you can always find a bad guy who wore what you wear...that doesn't mean you're a bad guy too. This is turning into a witch hunt.

From the Military Religious Freedom Foundation (MRFF)
 

The MRFF, an organization that is pressuring the USMC to investigate this matter fully. Chris Rodda, the MRFF's senior research director, has posted the following on the organization's website. The source is here._______________________________________________
* Williamson Murray and Richard Hart Sinnreich raised this question in the introduction to the essays presented in The Past as Prologue: The Importance of History to the Military Profession (New York: Cambridge University Press, 2006), 1-11.

All this........
 

..............from folks who think a Che T-Shirt is cool.

Former Marine
 

Before the Army I was in a Scout Sniper PLT out of Lejeune. The command can say what they want about not knowing, this symbol has been used as far back as any of us could remember. Our sniper instructors had the symbol branded into them upon graduation of sniper school, the history on that was the instructors would make the brand for the class, give one out on graduation day. Then the whole class would go out get drunk and brand each other. Now by the time my generation was going through school branding was no longer accepted so tattoos were what people got. I will say I did not considering I come from a minority filled city I didn't want to explain to each and every person that I meant for it to symbolize scout sniper. Considering most guys got it on the back of their necks, I felt they were just asking for an attack from behind, at the time I was a little older then my peers by a couple of years, maybe my indestructible toughness was already wearing off.

The sniper culture has promoted this symbol from the top down. To ride the PLT level shooters about this is the wrong answer. I remember seeing senior guys show off their brand as a mark of passage, and these were E7s and above, the guys who were in charge of the Scout Sniper School and major programs.

Then again maybe they are just paving the way to a kinder and more considerate time when women can feel at peace to join the unit.

Sorry Spitfire, this is controversy the Corps brought on themselves. They were warned in the early 80s when this was first brought up that it was a bad idea and would be met with scorn. Those are SS runes and they were adopted by a white supremacist in the scout snipers back in the 80s when that crap was cool. This is not the media dumping on the Marine Corps, it is the Marine Corps f**king up.

You are justifiably proud of the Marine Corps, they are a great unit wiht a proud history, this one though, not so much so.

My 2 cents and I have been around the snipers for a while.