Pissing on video
 

The outrage expressed by the media regarding the marines relieving themselves, makes me think how lucky most people are, to have lived such sheltered lives.

I have no issue with the act, war produces many unspeakable acts, this isn't one, in my opinion, the person publishing the video performed the "unspeakable act".
:mad:

Do you have an article that you can reference?

I haven't heard anything about this. :confused:

EDIT:
Found it: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/01/11...investigation/

Links
 

The best discussion on the topic I've read to date; written by Mitchell Bell, USMC on The SandGram today.

And from Reuters.

Does not make me laugh - nor does it reflect well on this site to have this sort of comment placed here.

Eagle edit

That made me laugh

You know, it's probably not appropriate, I wouldn't do it myself or allow my men to do it, but our opposition has done much worse, so...

I was impressed that they were all able to piss in Unison. But U.S Soldiers/Marines are held to a higher standard. These Marines were weak and lowered themselves to a the standard of their Enemy. The USMC should just get rid of them. Plenty of ditch digging jobs out there.

This has got to be a UCMJ violation, no?

Agree
 

I know it can be tough to think when men you know were just killed, but; I recall we had about 5-6 sappers left in and around our wire in late 68 that recon killed. A month earlier, sappers got in on Sep 3, 68 just after CCN was hit hard. I had 6 dead yards then. This time they paid dearly. The bodies started smelling. It was bothering the CO's breakfast. We hauled the NVA by truck south of camp and buried them. Those men were soldiers, too.

Perhaps you are not looking at the big picture here - the retribution and hindrance of forward momentum for those teams working with the villagers on the ground. The validation of the enemies characterization of US Forces. The propaganda value that this film has provided to the bad guys is every bit as bad (if not worse) than Abu-Ghrab.

Yes, most folks do live sheltered lives. The military is at war, the public is at the mall, smart bombs must be able to be dropped in the middle of a crowded playground and kill ONLY the one bad guy who is dressed in a suit wearing the concealed explosive vest.

That, unfortunately, does not excuse this type of behavior by a PROFESSIONAL MILITARY.

Think about it...

+1 Brother.

"Conduct prejudicial to good order and discipline" seems to stretch to cover everything.

Gee, in my day it was OK, even encouraged, to pee on Marines. Is that wrong now? :confused:

Pat

Trust me, I have. It's the very thing that's been haunting me since it broke. The pucker factor on waiting at home for commo just got kicked up a notch.

Thank you for pointing it out; wish more were.

I'm not surprised at all that they would piss on the bodies but it's shocking that someone decided to film it and post it on the internet. I am in no way saying that what they did is okay but at least try to keep it off the sky-line. This makes us all look bad. Just my .02

I can't comment on the horrors of wars, and what's right and wrong in a battlefield: haven't been there.

...But we've come a long way since carrying swords around and "pillaging the village" in respect to the military. Civilized countries around the world can now field professional armies, where each individual soldier contributes a much larger role.

What shocks me the most is the amount of damage this causes to the U.S. efforts in the region (let alone Afghanistan). I am assuming a lot of good men payed a very high price to improve relationships with the locals, and this type of behavior does not seem, at least to me, to honor those efforts.

That said, it is not for me to criticize the sentiments felt out there, so I'll limit my comment this far.

I'm surprised we don't see more of this type of stuff, with the reality that everyone has access to camera's, the internet etc.

Certainly I am not saying that I would expect our troops to do things like this. Rather with combining easy access to technology with the high emotions I am sure come out of a combat zone, I think it is probably a testament of the professionalism of our soldiers that we don't see more of this.

The SandGram article is definitely very well written and makes some excellent points. The final quote from the War College grad is the pivotal issue. As a PL, XO acting as Commander for a year, and now as a humble S1, I have spent days and nights trying to figure out how to effectively communicate to my Soldiers that this war cannot be won with the mentality that we are going to Afghanistan to kill people and, for our BDE, with the same "Iraq" mentality that they have been in on their last two tours.

Somewhere, leadership failed these Marines. Now before I get into this, I will say that as an officer, I have no misgivings about the fact that LTs, CPTs and beyond are capable of making stupid, impulsive decisions. . . That being said, young Soldiers will always be that much more likely to do the same and often to a greater degree. It's just simple math. They are younger, less time to grow up (emotionally and mentally. . .even if war has unnaturally sped the process in many after 10 years), and excluding the higher ranks of NCOs, will most often be less educated.

I am sure more details concerning these Marines will come out and we will learn their ranks and just how much experience and frustration has built up in these men. But it is the officer that failed here in my mind. The first line leader failed on the ground. Maybe PL or CO weren't even around. The officer failed weeks or months before these guys ever left the wire. If PL and CO had effectively trained and prepared these Marines then they would have understood what this does to our progress. They would understand story after story that has broken like this and how it keeps getting their buddies killed. The sheep in this country want to know why we've been in Afghanistan for 10 years and what do we have to show for it all? I say plenty, but its crap like this that makes it all much less worthwhile because we can't get ahead of the curve.

And the guy who filmed it...well if it was a fellow Marine then that guy is simply an idiot.

The thing that gets me...
 

This is the topic today around the water cooler, and what I find upsetting is hearing people, who have never been there and never been through the stress of combat, are berating these Marines and likening their actions to the overall US presense over seas.

IMH(Inexperienced)O the majority of us know right and wrong and where this stands, but leave the condemning of their actions to their fellow servicemen (past and present), their supperiors, and the protectors of the UCMJ.

I'm sorry if I'm out of my lane & I appreciate the oppurtunity to post on this.

Tweeder

In poor taste
 

Was this done in poor taste...yes.
Will it be used as a propaganda tool by EVERYONE...yes.

The 1st mistake was having a camera there. How many of us did something while in group that we didn't want anyone to see? I am going to bet almost everyone. The reason you never see any pics or video of me while in 7th Group is I followed rule #1. No cameras. My memory will serve me fine.

Now, I did not write this next part, it was passed along to me by a friend but, it really started me thinking.

So if you pee on a crucifix, you are an artist. Pee on the flag you are a constitutionalist..but pee on a the Taliban?

A very simple statement with a lot of power.

Before anyone goes off on the tangent of how this will affect the military image...I got it, it was done in poor taste. Do I as a human being condone this behavior? Absolutely not.

That being said, read that statement again, strip it down to it's premise.

Did these men really do anything different than what was listed above? Did they do anything equal to or worse than what has been done to our Soldiers?

As far as the video being used for a recruitment tool, there is really no argument there. It doesn't matter what we do, it will all be used as recruitment tools. Right now the recruitment tool is that we are week. At least with this video the enemy will know that his soul will not be pure. It's not as if the Taliban were about to throw in the towel and go home until this video came out.

Those who scream the loudest for tolerance are the more often than not the most intolerant.

Those are my $0.02
sf

I agree. Alas, the harm that is done to the reputation of those good troops by this small group of individuals is way out of proportion. But that's the way these things go.

Interesting statement from LTC(R) Allen West

http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/...ll_616699.html

Great letter. +1

"Shut your mouth,War is hell".........:(

http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/...ll_616699.http

Enough said!!!.........:(

Big Teddy :munchin

Has anybody heard the media blaming Obama for this? You know, like they blamed Bush for Abu Ghraib?

Oh. Never mind.

Of course I am not saying what they did is right but stfesta brings up a lot of good points.

What I am saying is this is why you should never bring a video cam to a pissing match.

This video isn't going to do anyone any good...more so US forces globally from a military and diplomatic point of view.

Common sense went out the window on this one.....

this is a bye product of the volunteer army...not professional soldiers

Yeah, let's just go back to the draft. :rolleyes:

Couldn't agree more. Same for Abu Ghraib, which should have been a secure environment.

I disagree, twistedsquid. We have the best military in the world, and it's professional, and volunteer at the same time.

Instead this is the product of mob mentality, albeit a mob of 4 (5 if you count the camera man).

Somebody thought up this idea, which seemed like a good idea at the time; or a way to take out some frustrations in the midst of combat. Instead of thinking, the others followed suit. Instead of questioning, all joined in (well, as far as we know based on what has been presented).

Easy to turn away from this and not be a part of it, more difficult to question or stand against it when you have to work, live and fight with these guys on a daily basis. No black sheep so to speak, no one to take a stand against what they all did because that path has its own consequences in a military unit.

In its simplest form it was a total lack of leadership compounded by the fact that there was not one person in the group that had the "backbone" to stop it because it was right to do so. What's right isn't always popular and what's popular isn't always right. Someone should have stepped up to the plate, drew a line and stopped it in the planning stages. No leaders present there, just followers.

"Interesting statement from LTC(R) Allen West


Quote:
“ I do not recall any self-righteous indignation when our Delta snipers Shugart and Gordon had their bodies dragged through Mogadishu. Neither do I recall media outrage and condemnation of our Blackwater security contractors being killed, their bodies burned, and hung from a bridge in Fallujah.

You don't? Me neither, LTC (P). What I recall is righteous indignation when our Delta snipers Shugart and Gordon had their bodies dragged through Mogadishu.

And you don't recall everyones outrage and condemnation of the killing, burning and hanging of the Blackwater security contractors in Fallujah?
What planet were you living on when that happened?

Talk about self-rightous, Sir.

As for the pissers; I'm wishing a strong breeze was blowing. We'd be laughing at four idiots pissing themselves.

With the perp IDs complete, I'll bet that's actually happened.:D

Thoughts from Africa
 

This incident illustrates exactly why terrorism needs to be fought tooth and nail and eradicated. Because terrorism is warfare without moral constraints of any kind, it has the tendency to destroy the moral fibre of those combating it. When your enemy has no rules he fights by, it is very easy to begin adopting the same mindset. In Southern Africa, we had a 30 year war against terror and it was very difficult to maintain civilised standards of behaviour among our armed forces over such a long period of being confronted with pure evil. At the end of the day, it is not really what you do to the enemy, but what you do to yourself. Is this how you want your armed forces to behave? I think self-respect is of overriding importance, particularly when fighting a quasi-religious war. Fighting from the moral high ground is a force multiplier that even Hitler's great war machine had to come to terms with.

I would suggest this is not an issue of fighting terrorism but rather fighting people of a different sort of mentality and "education" who are neither interested in democratic values nor our kind of social and family values.

I wouldn't disagree what they do is genuinely barbaric and "evil."

To them, fanatical islamic values and beliefs are far greater than anything else offered..and to accept anything else than sharia law and islam is unacceptable and against islam.

It's like trying to convince a republican Obama has a soft spot for the NRA...it will take a miracle for anyone to believe that.

What Dr. Harry Edward a professor of Sociology might say about the Marines:

This a freedom of expression, a moment when the militaristic discipline is shed for the pure joy of personal achievement.

and/or

In 75 Seasons, a 1994 documentary commemorating the 75th anniversary of the National Football League, sociologist Harry Edwards offered this explanation for what he views as a strong connection athletes' celebratory stylings: "You have a situation where a individual has paid the price and has achieved success. But when that success is achieved, they find that the vehicles of expressing how they feel about that are insufficient, and so they begin to innovate. And so when you see this continual creativity coming from individuals -- the high fives, spiking the ball, dancing in the end zone -- what you are witnessing is the creation of a vehicle to express that joy for which there is no mainstream language."


The days of kicking someone ass and honoring your foe for a good fight have gone the way of dis-honoring your foe through trash talk and other physical spectacles.

This type of behavior is condoned every NFL Sunday and many other sports. Kids have been watching for several decades, and increasingly mimicking, and building upon the escapades of there heros.


FTR - I removed a couple references to race

Thank you, Dozer. I can not think about the politically orchestrated disaster that was Somalia without feeling the anger rise in my chest. I have friends that work for Blackwater / Xe that still feel the sting of Fallujah. Another televised event that is forever burned into my mind.

It is unfortunate that the mainstream media would rather vilify these Marines than exemplify a unit as rigorously for doing good, but we all know what sells. It is too easy to be stupid for all the world to see these days with our instant ability to record and post video. I had to arrest what I thought was one of my best deputies once because of a video of him beating someone in cuffs. I never would have known except for the video, i was just lucky that the video never made it to the television.

I am not naive enough to think that this does not impact the mission, but I hope that those of you in the sand do not suffer additional consequences because of the irresponsible actions of these Marines.

Godspeed gentlemen.

This is not quite the same as George Patton pissing in the Rhine. (Patton stopped in the middle of the Rhine River near Oppehneim to urinate on 24 March 1945).

Hay when a guy has to go he has to go....:p

Rick Perry used the same Patton example as Dozer
 

Originally Posted by Dozer523
This is not quite the same as George Patton pissing in the Rhine. (Patton stopped in the middle of the Rhine River near Oppehneim to urinate on 24 March 1945).

http://news.yahoo.com/perry-defends-...201422122.html

"Suggesting that armed conflict can alter personal behavior, Perry noted that "there is a picture" of legendary Army General George Patton urinating in the Rhine River in Germany near the end of World War Two."

Tweeder