When did O&I go away?
 

When did O&I get split in to seperate ANCOC and 18F courses?

x/S

I went to the second to last regular O&I Class. They were pumping all of us guys thru. The ones who already had ANOC. I want to say 1997. After that ANOC and O&I were combined into one long course

Emphasis on Looong.....

Let me get this straight, O&I and ANCOC started out as seperate, then they were combined for a while, then (now) they are seperate again with O&I being morphed in to 18F. Man this is as confusing as verifying a VN era guy's QP status.

x/S

Cherry. ;)

Yes they were seperate, then they combined. And yes it's confusing.I'm sure someone will come along and offer some SF O&I "history".

I don't remember exactly when they combined into the long ass course, but it was not too long before my class started in fall 1995 because we started in the old buildings on Son Tay and finished in the SOAF. We were not awarded the MOS 18F, we were just given an ASI "F" which later hosed a lot of guys and made us have to go back through the new SFISC to stay an 18F. I went through (I think) the 3rd class of SFISC in...hmm 2004? The fall after the Iraq invasion whichever year that was. A lot of the stuff was the same old shit (OB, OPORDS, Photography) but some of the computer stuff they have now is truly incredible in the hands of a good 18F.

I hope this thread isn't too "aged" to put something on it.

In 91 - 95 I was the Ops/Intel Development Officer at the DOTD, SWC. O&I School had traditionally been the "SF NCO Advanced Course" for the guys ever since I'd been on a team. But in the 94/95 era, the SF NCO Academy wanted to own everything that was SF NCO.

I was tasked to do a study on the pros/cons of combining them at the NCO academy. These were the major points that I brought up:

1. Combining the two courses would make an incredibly long course. These two schools together would span possibly two deployment cycles and these guys were needed on teams.

2. O&I was able to keep the standards high for the course. If an NCO flunked out, it wasn't a career killer. But if a guy went to the combined course and boloed, he would be an ANCOC no-go and his career would be over. We felt that the course would be watered down to keep people from being put out of the army.

3. O&I at that time had become an MOS producing school. There was no mechanism for ANCOC to produce an MOS qualification.

4. A good many of the tasks that were taught by O&I were "owned" by SWC. If these tasks were transfered over to ANCOC, the Sergeants Major Academy would be the proponent school for them. That meant that SWC would have to ask permission before upgrading or teaching a new task - a horrible bowl of spaghetti in army schools.

When it was time to pitch the brief to Gen Schacknow, the NCO Academy CSM. the SWC CSM, the SWTG CSM, and 2nd Bn CSM all showed up to pitch their side. Their pitch was "this is NCO business, the NCO Academy does NCO business and we want it!"

Gen Shacknow saw that the entire NCO chain was demanding it (along with a Son Tay raider and a former USAIMA CSM they brought along for good measure) and checked Course of Action 2 (NCO Academy). But to his credit, he wrote on the last page "If we've done something dumb here, let me know soonest."

We tried to keep it as two separate courses but the stars were aligned against us. I believe what we felt was going to happen, did. The course became too long, there were problems with 18F, and let's face it - not everyone is cut out for O&I School.

But that's the sorry history behind it. Bottom line: the guys who originally designed a separate course back in the day of the dinosaur knew what they were doing and a CSM who'd never been anywhere or done anything (came into SF as a senior E-7) tried to change what was a pretty good, if imperfect system.

Back to your regularly scheduled thread.

LOL!
 

You must be talking about Bone and his clones?!?!:eek::D

Stay safe.

It was one of his clones. The CSM was from 1st Group. He and I didn't see eye to eye. One day he addressed me as "chief" so I answered him as "Sarge". It was fun to watch him swallow his tongue. :D

Old "Henry D." was CSM of 2/7. I went in for a command and staff one day. He noticed that my beret didn't have a liner in it. He said "Sir, the regulation states that the beret will be worn as issued." I retorted "Sergeant Major, your S-4 didn't have any berets to issue me. That's mine, so mind your own business." :p I never liked senior NCOs who played chicken s*** games or, as he did, pick on sergeants just because he could. He made soldiers stand guard mount in combat in Panama at the SFOB. Holy cow, he had no idea what we were all about.

There were too many Bone Clones running around. They got in the way of doing real business.

Before Bone
 

Bone was not the first, my favorite was Ivan. Ivan once complained to the Tng Gp CSM that I as 1SG D/3/1 TNG was wearing square-toed boots, CSM told him I was from 10th, the boots were issued and he didn't have a problem with it.

MVP

Yeah, Ivan was one of the guys in the meeting. I don't think he could even spell O&I.

I knew Ben Peets pretty well. He used to live across the street from me and we had some long talks. He was a guy with vision - it was good to have some folks with connections getting involved with SF intel stuff. BTW, Ben is in the MI Hall of Fame.

I remember the long course starting in 94ish as I went thru a seperate O&I class since I already had ANCOC which was Jan-Mar 95.

CD

Mar - Jun '87. I stayed with my in-laws the whole time to save a little money. It about drove me and them crazy. I had a lot of fun in the course though and learned a lot.

I think 2002/2003 was when they changed over. I went to ANCOC in 03 and it was by then separated even though they taught some O&I in our class. I was told that our class was the last class with the 35 mm camera.

Our old Fox went to ANCOC in 2002 and that's how he got the O&I portion and MOS.

LOL!
 

I made the mistake of leaving my camera unsecured in the team room.:eek: The one-hour photo place off a Yadkin were looking at me as if I was weird...never left my camera unsecured again.:cool:

Stay safe.

I did ANCOC / O&I combined in 1994...
Eagle

That wouldn;t have been CSM Joe Lupiyak would it:D
I saw him before I went to A-Stan last year...said he now worked at DOT-D.

He was a good dude.

Eagle

Guy:

They probabaly thought you had a fetish for white dudes w/ hairy asses.

x/S

Three men I served with were on the O&I Committee
 

1LT Rousch, not Heinz K, who was KIA at CCN after the IV Corps Mike Force, plus Harve Saal and Lyle Sloan were on the O&I committee In the mid to late 70's., I recall when Rousch got his direct commission from my CO as he went to A503 where Shriver had started.

Sometime ago, I was asked about a SOG Recon manual. I made a few calls. Sure enough one or two blue books were written by these men.

We had a lot of extremely sharp 11F4S's. I had one who briefed senior officers at Division level plus better then field grade MI officers. He was from Oki and TDY to us. I will never forget Dale Libby as he had been to every course from the triple 6 to you name it. He used to pick the lock on the SADM TS Docs. I just shook my head. We still used Fort Hollabird, MD in 69. Glad the O&I guys are still tops.

Joe was there - he was an training developer for the 2nd Bn, SFTG. JL was my group CSM when I got to the 5th. The one I was thinking of was (I'll leave the name out). He was one of the best soldiers I've ever met, but he was buying the "party line" and I was, frankly, disappointed.

I was on the same team as Harve in the city. I considered myself a pretty good intel guy, but he was incredible. I learned more from him than I did in O&I. I was sorry to hear that he'd passed on.

I don't remember the name, sorry. If you went through the third SFISC, we were classmates. NCOIC was "Archie".

I went thru O&I Nov-Dec 1964.
That make me 2 days older than dirt!! :D

BMT

:D

E/S - just remember those f's are just s's, papyrus cracks and fades with time, and the CIBs were a musket and wreath. After you get used to the "Thee's" and "Thou's" on the orders and citations as personal pronouns, and the occasional references to the "King" - it's not too bad. :p