Is Martial Law a possibility?
 

The firing, or forced resignation of the CEO of GM by the President today, along with the AIG mess, scares the hell out of me. Never in my wildest dreams would I think that our elected democratic government would behave with such excessive intervention, that a policy like this would be executed in our country, The United States of America. If it has happened in the past and I am ignorant to the occasion; I have this to say. Times are very different, in my mind unprecedented for the opportunity they present to unravel our democratic system.

My history is weak, but I see a frighteningly similar comparison between the political climate of the thirties Europe and in America today. An economic system and model, that is stressed to the breaking point, or past its usefulness. A leader who is, or appears to have all the necessary components to be a dangerous egomaniac, and who additionally has the masses enthralled with his oratory powers; while the news media focuses on the combined internal gun control issues, multiple muders, illegal’s immigrants and foreign trouble on our boarders, a war overseas. I foresee a scenario where by with one major failure cause by a natural catastrophe, failed FDIC, or horrific clash with the drugs cartels on the civilian populace; and Martial Law is/will be declared by the President with the people’s approval, not to be remitted.

This link: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/lif...fset=12&page=2

Has an interesting article that addresses some of my concerns in a much more sensible fashion. It’s worth the read.

Along the same line:

Celente

The fellow's predictions sound extreme; however, his track record is quite good. Address of his company site: LINK

My opinion: matters are getting worse. The present rally in the markets and the economy is deceptive - a brief "Indian Summer" of sorts. But numerous underlying factors are getting worse, not better.

Take a hard look at municipal, county, and state tax revenues and the related budgets - as well as the demand for services. Revenues are in sharp decline, whereas demand for services is on the increase. Rhetorical question: what happens when governments cannot fund such services any more?

Also, take a very hard look at public and private pensions. The money to pay those benefits comes from investments or current revenue. Investment portfolios are down. Investment yields likewise. Current revenue, both public and private, is down. Rhetorical question: what happens when the payments stop? Potential answer: defaulted pensions go to the PBGC (Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation). Problem - the PBGC is underfunded, and the incipient GM bankruptcy may well overwhelm the federally backed PBGC. Therefore, the original question asserts itself: what happens when those checks quit coming?

I believe it is a possibility that grows by the day and all that is needed is the the right catalyst. If they confiscate retirement accounts it is going to piss alot of folks off, but the catalyst for civil unrest could be any number of things.

I hear more and more folks talking about Martial Law, Civil Unrest and what is going to put them over the edge......it's geting spookier by the day.


From what I have overheard Firearms and their Hard Earned Savings are tops on the list.

WTF
 

What the Hell ????? are any of you really serious???

I am completely serious. I cannot speak for anyone else; however, it is my perception that they, too, are entirely serious.

Within Chef Penn's article is a brief element that discusses growth; it points out the dependency of the economy on continued growth. Presently, the domestic and global economy are not growing; instead, they are shrinking. This is why Chairman Bernanke is engaged in such strong efforts to fight deflation and return to an inflationary environment.

As an interesting thought experiment, observe the news and listen for the term "growth". It can be growth of wages, of budget, of sales, or anything else. Notice that there is a consistent assumption that growth will continue indefinitely. Now, ask yourself what happens if that pattern is disrupted.

You have no doubt heard of people walking away from their home mortgage. Have you heard that banks are now abandoning foreclosures?

Below is an excerpt from the NY Times:

City officials and housing advocates here and in cities as varied as Buffalo, Kansas City, Mo., and Jacksonville, Fla., say they are seeing an unsettling development: Banks are quietly declining to take possession of properties at the end of the foreclosure process, most often because the cost of the ordeal — from legal fees to maintenance — exceeds the diminishing value of the real estate.

The so-called bank walkaways rarely mean relief for the property owners, caught unaware months after the fact, and often mean additional financial burdens and bureaucratic headaches. Technically, they still owe on the mortgage, but as a practicality, rarely would a mortgage holder receive any more payments on the loan. The way mortgages are bundled and resold, it can be enormously time-consuming just trying to determine what company holds the loan on a property thought to be in foreclosure.



LINK

I think interesting times are upon us.

Read more - post less
 

You have been a member here a little over a week.

It is clear you need to read more and post less for a while.

Most here do not like to be blindsided by events and keep a close eye on world news.

We are not truthers or tin foil hat wearers but do like to see trends in activities.

Maybe we need to start a thread akin to TR's survival thread, but related to surviving hard financial times. The gentleman in the video suggested saving as much cash as you can, but where do you keep it if banks get in trouble and the fdic doesn't guarantee your deposits?

The Government will do, whatever WE allow them to do. I do not, however, understand why they suddenly believe, it it their responsibility to control the fate of corporations that either engage in shady lending practices, or make sub-standard products. I was of the opinion that business was... survival of the fittest. Make a good product, that people want, and sell it at a reasonable price, and you will reap the rewards.

When has, in the past, our tax dollars, been GIVEN to failing businesses or banks? Have the American people approved this measure? Nope. The Government put on those big britches... If we let them do it, it will continue until our Dollar is worthless.

...and what exactly will you do with all that cash, when it's not worth the paper it's printed on? Gold, Silver, other precious metals, if you are going to invest. Guns, ammo, and food, if you want to be prepared for when China calls in it's loans to us.

...or we could take the South Park (Government) approach and bury our heads deeper in the sand... :rolleyes:

More than a possiblity.
 

At this point it appears this is highly likely. I have said and remain firm in the beleif Obama is the #1 Jihadist and true enemy of this country. His plans are not to pull us out of our mess but to increase it and Bankrupt the country to allow for Muslim take over. Does this sound crazy? Yes, but it is what I believe at this point. A True Believer ..."GOD bless America and may we survive this attack on our constitution, Blitrzzz

Note to BlackRob82 be serious not a Joke. Pay attention to advice from Pete. You can PM me with any comments.

A person I know retired last year and has lost more than half of what he had in that little nest egg. If the governent passes Cap and Trade our utility bills in my area will go up 50% and so will everything else.

After a point as he told me 'I have nothing to lose'.

Throw up a gun topic on a forum regarding a ban, it will likey be the most active topic on the board and stay active for weeks. You'll see many response like 'Let them try', 'From My Dead Hands', 'In a Pile of Brass'. Some are blowing smoke, but many are quite serious about holding on to that last thing, that last piece of freedom as they see it.

The death by a thousand cuts is running it course, it used to once in awhile, but now they are getting anxious, applying the cuts weekly and daily and a bit deeper each time.


You do the math and it is entirely possible.

Chef Penn--

While I am also deeply concerned about contemporaneous events, I do not see many similarities between today's crises and our current political leadership and my understanding of the crises and political leadership in American and European history during the Interwar years (1919-1939). IMHO, many of the comparisons being offered do not consider sufficiently the geopolitical, political, social, ideological, technological, and, perhaps most importantly, cultural differences between then and now.*

This is not to say that things today are not bad and that they may get worse before they get better. Today, things suck spoiled Easter eggs. Those eggs are going to be sitting in a broken refrigerator on the back porch for quite a while. It is going to be egg salad sandwiches for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. Desert will be Dozer's special recipe chocolate cookies.:eek:

But I don't see anarchy on the horizon. Nor do I see totalitarianism on a global or even continental scale. There is no theory of political economy that comes close to rivaling the imperfect practice democratic capitalism, even with all its shortfalls, flaws, inconsistencies, and contradictions.

What I see are the beached ships of the Achaeans. I see Agamemnon trying to convince himself that he's Franklin Roosevelt. I see Achilles preening for an Anne Liebowitz photo-shoot; Thetis, the original helicopter mom, is laying out his clothes. Where are the great tactician, the lord of the war cry, and the tamer of horses when you need them?

__________________________________________________
* If I could pick only one book to make my case, it would be Ian Kershaw, The 'Hitler Myth'. Image and Reality in the Third Reich (1987) in which Kershaw meticulously lays out the political communication methods of the Hitler dictatorship. This book, one of the best works of history I've ever read, makes two points abundantly clear. First, twenty first century digital communications can not be manipulated efficiently enough to prevent a broader understanding of the rhetorical inconsistencies of a demagogue . Second, as evidenced by the 'guns and religion' comment, the current president is not disciplined enough as a speaker to stay on messages configured for specific audiences. That is, by the time they figured out that they'd made a deal with the enemy of the world who never intended to honor the bargain with anything other than the blood of the German people themselves, Berliners were huddled in shelters as Allied bombs crashed about their ears. By the time Americans figure out that they've been promised irreconcilable policies, the recession will have ebbed just enough to make some serious changes during the 2010 midterms.

AMEN.
I believe there will come a time within our own armed forces when a choice will have to be made. To defend the Constitution, or to set it afire. The rapidity of the ABSOLUTELY UNPRECEDENTED spending of the taxpayers money will burden my children, grandchildren, and perhaps even an additional generation. There will be no "standard of living" for the American people. Simply survival. When the Armed Forces of the United States are turned against it's own citizens in order to support an agenda from the Executive Branch - true Patriotism will be tested.
The question was posed "what happens when those services run out?" You need look only to Katrina -
The masses: looting, robbery, preying upon the weak, mob mentality
The few: defensive measures, personal and family protection, survival
The government: remove the ability for the few to survive against the masses, take away their guns, raid their stockpiles, remove them from their personal shelters, perpetuate fraud, waste what little dollars we have on people who refused to listen in the first place.

The Jihad is again on American soil. The word "Patriot" is now more important than ever.

Eagle

I would be leery of equating New Orleans to the rest of America. Using this analogy, why didn't the same thing happen along the rest of the coast devastated by Katrina or when Ike devastated the Texas coast? Same event cycle - different group of participants. Much like an NTC/JRTC training cycle - different units perform differently on the same terrain under the same set of circumstances.

IMO - America is much, much more than what we saw during Katrina and that there are, in fact, more Americans of our ilk (like the rest of the Gulf Coast) than those consistently being spot-lighted by the MSM and Polecatus Washingtonium - the career victims with TV sets and a voter registration card.

My take on all this - be patient and Keep the faith. ;)

Richard's $.02 :munchin

Sigaba - have you read "The Collapse of Complex Societies" by Tainter? It's an interesting theory by a well-respected anthropologist. If nothing else, the language he uses is brilliant.

It occurs to me that martial law might not occur as a result of totalitarian tendencies, but rather as a response to societal breakdown. As such, the troops might not be the target of resentment, but rather a welcome sign of order.

Richard points out that post-Katrina New Orleans may not be replicated elsewhere; however, if we suppose an underlying failure of civil government, then different locations might exhibit divergent symptoms. As one example, we might ask what happens if a city cannot pay the garbage workers. If the trash stacks up, the chances for disease increase. The garbage workers might refuse to work if they were not paid. How, then, does government address the problem? The military might be used in such a manner, although whether it should be is a different matter. Likewise, the proposed civilian service corps might fulfill such functions.

Such a developing tendency toward federalization of formerly local functions might lead to a totalitarian state. However, such a state may not succeed in implementing its aspirations. I have heard it said that logistics is critical; but as civil society weakens, the essentials of logistics - the bullets and beans - become more problematic. The pronouncements of Baghdad Bob are, perhaps, suggestive of such a condition.

To add to my growing unease:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/firs...litia-members/

brb in 3hr

The late Dr. Adrian Rogers (1931 to 2005) offered the following observation several years ago and it bears poignant significance today:
"You cannot legislate the poor into freedom by legislating the rich out of freedom. What one person receives without working for, another person must work without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that my dear friend is about the end of any nation.

You cannot multiply the wealth by dividing it."

IMHO, We're slowly starting down that slippery slope. I'm really interested how BH0 handles the G20. I think his time as the world's "rock star" is about to come crashing down like the Hindenburgh.

Penn, just a thought, but by todays standards... Everyone in the boat in your avatar, would have been labled a "domestic terrorist." It seems like good company to be in. If slapping all of us pro-Constitution, super patriots with a label like "domestic terrorist" or "militia" makes the Government "feel better"... Oh well. Guess the "checks and balances" are still working. After all, it's better the Government fear the people, than the people fear the Government.

PS... When they start rounding us super patriots up and ask us to get on the cattle cars... it's time to grab your pitchfork. :D

Nice analogy. Unfortunately you left off the part where the Achaeans persisted until they destroyed the most productive city state of the era. Then they returned home to continue goat herding and piracy/raiding for another four hundred (or thereabouts) years until Pericles comes along to usher in a "Golden Age" (which didn't do anything for Troy). I'm afraid this time the barbarians are at our gates. All the Anointed One - or his handlers - needs now is his own Odysseus to commit the final act of clever treachery and open the gates while we sleep. (Oh - wait - we did that ourselves on 4 Nov. The only thing left is for the victors to finish pillaging and burning!) The tactics haven't changed in millennium; it's still about rabble rousing to take from the rich (productive) and give to the poor (unproductive/power base) in order to buy their loyalty. The system works until you run out of rich victims.

Here I go again.
 

Expressing differences of opinion is our privilege here. In the presents of so many who have offered their lives in the defense of this nation's constitution, and have been trained in the business of intel analysis, and area studies, I find it difficult to believe that Sigaba can not see the present POTUS's move to totalitarianism. Sigaba, again I complement your obvious level of formal education, but am disturbed at you displayed denial of the reality at hand.
Your defense of the POTUS is sheepish in his rhetoric is to placate the sheep and deliver devastation to the country while achieving his goal of our defeat.

I apologize if I'm wrong, and don't say these thing to Insult but to state my incredulity. Blitzz

I agree with Richard. Watching the citizens of ND-MN this a.m. on the news battling the flooding in very cold weather, working to save their homes, their neighbors' homes, and their cities filled me with hope - as did the actions of people in Iowa during their flooding. I think if the resilience of what I think is the majority of Americans can withstand the barrage that is landing on them now - we can "turn this car around" - with Congress in two years and the White House in four.

That said, to Richard's quote above, I'd add - "and keep your powder dry!" ;)

What scares me is that Blitz, Peregrino, nmap and I all see the evolving metamorphosis of this beast. It’s a societal change, or at the very least, the fundamental underpinnings to create, what BHO has stated as one of his goals: The redistribution of wealth in America. Which would imply that csquare’s quote is dead on. If so, then I do not see, or rather can not accept Zonie Driver position of wait and see.
When it is suggested by one of the two national parties to develop “Fusion Zones”, one must take a step back, look down the road and ask what the possible outcomes are and who benefits from this information, then combined that with disarming, or severely limiting the access to arms, and the populace is neutered.
Pushing this a step further; most of us, as has been stated all signed on the dotted line “To protect and defend”….when faced with this situation, with those currently in a position of power, that by their very place states that they are in fact fulfilling that role and we see as not to be true….what then?

While not exactly proposing a "wait and see" approach - I do think political action, education, spreading information to those who are ill- or mis-informed, and being vocal in opposition to such things as "fusion zones" and the socialization of areas of our society that a few short years ago few would have predicted would be socialized - I fail to see other actions that would be appropriate at this time.

Rhetorically, what more can we do other than those things I listed above - coupled with my "preparation" admonition? We are less than two years away from mid-year Congressional elections. The Democrats do not have the much-needed 60 votes in the Senate. Even with "railroading" by Pelosi, et al - how much can they accomplish in that time that cannot be undone IF there is a significant reaction? Perhaps I have more faith in the average American. Perhaps I am "Pollyanna-ish" in my approach. I still say, "We'll see."

However, that does not mean I don't prepare for eventualities that I do not think are likely to come to pass. I do. I have since prior to the election of Jimmy Carter.

This is a great topic for discussion...

I am not advocating insurrection, yet.
Though it does appear that letter writing is not going to be enough; in fact, it’s pointless as a means of protest. You have to remember that the BHO campaign can secure the internet and popular view, that’s how they won the election. They raised 200ml, in nickels and dimes; I think? They possess the ability not only to make news, but they control the news. They have taken political psyops to a whole new level. You’re a racist and un-American if you disagree with them.

Prediction a blind deaf mute could make. When they start to roll out the AWB they will co-op it with a handgun limit also. They will do this for OUR SECURITY and SAFETY. They will show chart after chart of the recent carnage in the US. Mothers and babies…
It’ll be a frontal assault on the second amendment phrased in such a way, that if you don’t support it, you are the problem.

Aside note: I love the fact that both Sigaba and Peregrino can delve into Greek history/mythology in support of their argument.

And, as someone stated earlier on this board; know what your line is. When it's met, know what you're going to do.

Some "know" what they will do but we also know they will give in. Others have come together and stated that they will not give in; they are not necessarily militias, but folks who support the Constitutional rights given. Those are the ones that will be used as the media portrays them as unpatriotic and causing/advocating violence.

I just hope everyone already knows where they stand; because more than likely, you're going to be put to the test within the next few years.

Wellllllllll...you guys have me convinced...and now I'm ready, too! :rolleyes:

Richard's $.02 :munchin

Hint - read my avatar.

Nmap--

I am not familiar with Joseph Tainter (his CV is here.) I will be visiting a library in the next couple of days and I'll look for his book then.

I look over the short span of years that I have lived, at all of the amazing and even incredulous things that have transpired, and can say with great certainty that the only thing possible is
anything.

A short twenty years ago, the idea of the Euro was laughable.

Sixty years ago, the idea of a black American holding the office of President was ludicrous.

Eight years ago, a Muslim heading our political structure?

How many other items of technology, events in recent history, and personal experience have punched us all in the forehead?

Cooks, you were, for imagining such things; now, thanks to a movie with Mel Gibson, you are tin foil hat types.

Expect the worst so as not to be disappointed.

The only thing possible is anything.

The idea of the Euro was formally agreed to with the passing of the 1987 Single European Act - more than 20 years ago - and it certainly wasn't a laughing matter among the EU and NATO partners when I was at the AmEmbassy-Bonn during the so-called German Reunification.

And who might that be? As far as I know, it hasn't happened yet. I certainly hope you're not referring to this guy.

http://www.barackobama.com/factcheck...a_muslim_1.php

Richard's tin foil wrapped $.02 :munchin

I think that in planning a course of action, one first needs to develop a theory of why matters are presently developing as they are, which in turn suggests the direction of the future. Refinements to the theory should occur as events occur.

I think that ZonieDriver has suggested an optimal path, although my reasons for doing so are substantively different from what I perceive his to be. Thus, our focus should be appropriate political action, combined with suitable preparation. In a sense, our best course of action is to let the situation develop.

A key issue for governments has always been the exercise of control at a distance. We saw the problems involved as Rome sought to control a wide swath of the world. We saw it again when England attempted to maintain control of its colonies. At this point, I will hazard a strong prediction. Our own government, no matter what path it chooses, will face steadily greater challenges in maintaining control of the entirety of the United States. If this premise is true, the central government will face a problem similar to that experienced by Rome. Just because an order is given does not mean that it will be carried out in the provinces. And this will not be because of any particular resistance, but rather because the central government will simply lack the resources to accomplish its objectives.

In making this statement, I recognize that it is the polar opposite of our present experience, and of all of our expectations. Almost everyone alive today in the U.S. has experienced a profound change in the speed of communication and the volume of trade and commerce. We sense a modification of our environment, suppose that those changes will continue indefinitely, and so we extrapolate into the indefinite future. In my opinion, this leads us astray.

First, let us consider where we came from. Let us consider rural Arkansas, sometime around 1934. That's just 75 years ago. At the time, houses in the area did not have electricity or running water. An orange was a much desired gift, available at Christmas, and only one per child. A banana was a rarity. Radios were operated with power from an automobile battery, and were used sparingly to conserve the battery. Notice the immense contrast between our present day life experience and the situation I described. And yet, I know from conversations with living relatives the conditions were as I have described them. So then, why is it that our lifestyle has advanced so greatly in the past 75 years, in profound contrast with the more modest advances during similar periods in the past? Furthermore, can we anticipate that 75 years hence technology, communications, and commerce will have exhibited similar advances?

If one looks carefully, one sees a strong correlation with the availability of abundant cheap energy. By this, I mean abundant, cheap, crude oil. We can see a similar set of advances with the discovery and exploitation of coal. It is worth noting that oil supplanted coal, and that at each step our civilization enjoyed significant advances in prosperity, mobility, and quality of life. For example, we can contrast the range, speed, and power of navies as they transitioned from coal-fired ships to oil fired ships. Likewise, the change from wind-powered ships to coal powered vessels transformed navies.

It has been, and remains, my premise that the availability of cheap and abundant crude oil is in decline. Notice that the United States became an importer of oil in 1973. Consider the development of our economy in the period since that time. Whereas in the late 60s, it was common for one spouse in a family to work, and the other to stay at home, now both must work to maintain their lifestyle. In the era of Eisenhower, we built the interstate highway system, now we struggle to maintain it. We sent multiple missions to the Moon, whereas now we seem to have trouble maintaining the space program at all.

Let's consider military operations in Afghanistan. How practical would it be to maintain that operation if abundant fuel were substantially less available? Could the operations be maintained effectively without abundant support by helicopters, air transport, and ground-based vehicles? Could even the present level of control be effectively maintained if these tools were less available? These are all rhetorical questions. However, we can extend the principle to the issue of the cohesion of our domestic government. It is one thing to pass a law, and it is quite another to maintain its enforcement. As the value of the dollar declines, and as the availability of foreign financing for our debt likewise declines, we might ask where the resources will come from to support extensive enforcement mechanisms and a pervasive bureaucracy. I propose that such control will become steadily less practical, with effective control withdrawing from the peripheral areas over time. Large cities that produce substantial tax revenue will remain under control for quite a while. But the wide swathes of open territory may see steadily reduced activity.

The response to this will probably be higher taxes and some sort of conscription - perhaps for the civilian volunteer corps. However, higher taxes make tax evasion more profitable, and hence can increase corruption. Recall that our system depends on voluntary compliance with the tax code. It cannot easily adapt to pervasive evasion. In addition, unwilling conscripts may not be especially effective.

Could a Zimbabwe-like regime come into being? Perhaps. But without effective control, the various regions seem likely to revert to a quasi-feudal pattern. The local governmental appointee, not the central government, would have the real power. Such a situation suggests approaches I will not speculate on, especially since others here know vastly more than do I.

No matter what the inclinations of various officials might be, I strongly question their ability to carry out their intentions. We might wish to factor in the problems related to a widespread and growing failure of central control as we contemplate the possibilities for abuse of that control. I suspect that some areas will plead for martial law and troops. I don't think we'll have to wait many years to witness it.

IMHO, I think we here in America have fallen into the bad habit of looking at the most extreme forces in politics, society, and culture and extrapolating those viewpoints to be the whole. Just as Bush the Younger received cogent criticism from his supporters, the current president will find that his most trenchant critics will come from the ranks of Democrats. If we're attentive and if we can avoid attacking the opposition, I see opportunities for great conversations. (Which means--I guess--I shouldn't be taunting friends by asking "Got buyer's remorse, yet?" or "Still got your receipt?" or "Are you enjoying amateur hour?")

I also think we who sit on the right side of the issues are falling into the same traps that enmeshed the political left. Namely, a crisis in confidence is pushing us into a reactionary role at the expense of offering viable alternatives that will resonate with some members of the political opposition who are willing to listen.
Being badly over educated in the liberal arts has some advantages.:p

One other advantage is an understanding that the cry of "worst president ever" and dire warnings that the end is near are nothing new. We were fed a steady stream of the former during the previous eight administrations. The claims of the latter are older than America itself.

Blitzz--

Sir, I do not take offense or insult at your expression of incredulity.

My point of view is, as you point out, the product of my education. That education includes graduate level study of modern German social history and nineteenth and twentieth century American social history At the time of my study, historians of modern Germany were obsessed with retracing the special path (Sonderweg) that led to the Nazi dictatorship. (Historians of the American west think they have angst over "the legacy of conquest." They know nothing of angst--imagine trying to explain why your country was responsible for two world wars.) A bit later, I spent some time studying under a historian who, along with his like minded colleagues, was addressing the question "Why is there no class consciousness in the United States?" The fact that the implicit assumption was never formally articulated or challenged by these scholars speaks for itself.

These two trajectories of inquiry are heavily populated by scholars who are informed by Marxist theory (in particular, the "British Marxist" school of history [e.g. E.P. Thompson], the Frankfurt School, and, to a greater degree in America, the Italian Marxist Antonio Gramsci ). In short, these historians had a keen interest in understanding the conditions that inhibited the spread of social democracy and socialism. (I'd not say they are communists in a political sense. Rather, as the quip goes, they are Neiman Marxists <<link>>. As one of my mentors would tease, "These guys own fucking houses. They are 'them.'")

My conclusion from this study is that inasmuch as America is contested terrain and that although these contests have been the cause and consequence of great turmoil, even civil war, our present day trials do not activate fears of totalitarian rule or the rise of socialism through creeping incrementalism.

:munchin

In support of my premise that governments, particularly local governments, tend to withdraw...in the article, the mayor considers shutting down quadrants of the city of Flint. However, he does not define what, precisely, he means by "shut down".

Off-the-cuff suggestion prompts discussion on what to do with abandoned neighborhoods in Flint

Posted by Kristin Longley | The Flint Journal March 17, 2009 07:45AM

Ryan Garza | The Flint Journal

The view through an abandoned house's broken window looks out on a boarded-up house across the street on East Russell Avenue in Flint.


FLINT, Michigan -- Look in any direction from Bianca Bates' north Flint home, and you'll see graffiti-covered siding, boarded-up windows and overgrown lots.

About half of the homes on her block are burned out or vacant magnets for drug dealers and squatters. It isn't where she thought she'd end up, but it's all she can afford to rent.

"It's a dangerous place to live," said Bates, 21, who lives on East Russell Avenue. "Everywhere you look, these houses are empty around here."

Property abandonment is getting so bad in Flint that some in government are talking about an extreme measure that was once unthinkable -- shutting down portions of the city, officially abandoning them and cutting off police and fire service.

Temporary Mayor Michael Brown made the off-the-cuff suggestion Friday in response to a question at a Rotary Club of Flint luncheon about the thousands of empty houses in Flint.

Brown said that as more people abandon homes, eating away at the city's tax base and creating more blight, the city might need to examine "shutting down quadrants of the city where we (wouldn't) provide services."

He did not define what that could mean -- bulldozing abandoned areas, simply leaving the vacant homes to rot or some other idea entirely.

On Monday, a city spokesman downplayed Brown's comments.

Flint Journal extras At issue
• City officials say they may consider shutting down city services in areas where no one lives, but no plans are on the table to so.


Bob Campbell, Brown's spokesman, said the acting mayor was speaking hypothetically about a worst-case scenario, "not something that would be laid out in the next six months" while he's in office.

But City Council President Jim Ananich said the idea has been on his radar for years.

The city is getting smaller and should downsize its services accordingly by asking people to leave sparsely populated areas, he said.

"It's going to happen whether we like it or not," he said. "We'd have to be creative about it, but it's something worth looking into. We're not there yet, but it could definitely happen."

Flint resident Derrick Young, 39, doesn't think people in his West Austin Avenue neighborhood would bow too easily to such a request.

"We (are) all family over here," he said. "We all stick together."

Even in neighborhoods where more homes are vacant than occupied, Young, who rents, said the city shouldn't interfere.

"They shouldn't be so hard on people, just because they live in a bad area," he said. "They should find more ways to fix it up and rent it out."

The concept of "shrinking cities" isn't new to urban areas similar to Flint.

Last year, the city of Youngstown, Ohio, proposed incentives to encourage people to move out of nearly empty blocks and relocate to more populated areas closer to the heart of the city. Some people were offered upward of $50,000, according to news reports.

The idea was to shut down entire streets and bulldoze abandoned properties so the city could discontinue services such as police patrols and street lighting, according to a CNN report.

The problem came, understandably so, when officials asked residents to move.

Abandoned and foreclosed homes are on top of the list of major challenges facing Michigan cities, said Arnold Weinfeld, director of public policy and federal affairs with the Michigan Municipal League. The organization surveyed several cities that cited declining property taxes as the No. 1 problem, he said.

In the past three years or so, cities in Michigan have lost a combined $147 million in property taxes, he said.

"That's bound to have an impact on local services," he said. "There's no question it's an issue. Each community is going to address it differently."

Brown took over last month after former Mayor Don Williamson resigned facing a recall election. His replacement will be elected Aug. 4.

Brown is focused on economic development as a key to revitalizing Flint, Campbell said. The city also has the advantage of having the Genesee County Land Bank, he said.

"Cities such as Flint might be forced to make difficult choices at some point," Campbell said. "However, what he's all about is having an economic development plan in place so we don't have to seriously consider that as an option."

Bates said the idea might make some people happier, but she doesn't see how it would help the city.

But her roommate, Gabrielle Daniels, said it sounds like a good idea.

"Let's get these kids out of these bad areas," she said. "Get them out of drug houses and into safer neighborhoods."


LINK

Trust me when I say I have folded more aluminum foil then all the members of this board combined, but for the life of me, I fail to understand why my paranoia hasn’t transformed my native origami skill into that of a couture milliner. So I apologize for pairing insurrection and the word yet in the same sentence.

Sounds like a good time for the city to reevaluate its previous planning, produce a more realistic and relevant development plan, and consolidate its viable communities to ensure longevity while taking the opportunity to create those ever popular 'green zones' in aeas which are no longer of use to a community.

The article does not sound so dire to me - but I have spent many months living and teaching in some of the least desirable environments/communities this planet can offer and may have a jaundiced point-of-view when it comes to such things. ;)

I think I'll just leave my 12 gauge in the closet a while longer. ;)

Richard's tin foil wrapped $.02 :munchin

I think that the ability to remain objective is compromised by constant bombardment from various media.
--Never would of thought this 6 months ago.

Some time in October, I cast cable TV and internet from my house, disabled text messaging from my cell phone, turned off the voice mail feature, and frequently don't answer the house phone when it rings.

News is still readily available down here at the internet cafe...in reasonable chunks from sources I trust (like PS.com).
The events going on throughout the world are still clear, but the sensationalism is absent.
When the President was elected, it raised concern, but not a great deal of emotion.

The people who package the news and try to stir emotions are VERY good at what they do.

To anyone whom may be concerned, try unplugging a few things for a few months and see if doesn't affect perspective.
You won't be any less aware, just less harassed.

-GC's .02

Having a minor in classical studies, I can appriciate the arguments comparing the past to previous empires. But, no matter what we cannot forget that we are Americans. By that I mean that no other country/people have been so forged in the idea of independence and figuring out/making a better way for themselves. It is the reason why our capitalism is so strong-we find ways to adjust and move on. Like anything that is independent, we thrive on recovering from failure. Thats not to say that I am not troubled: we went by housing today to move on-post because I am not convinced that the People's Republic of Western Washington will not go to hell while I am gone.

I believe something a bit different-I still think this could end up a really good thing. I believe that 2004 or 2005 was the first year since the 1920's that as a society we spent more than we made. It was only a matter of time after this. I was convinced this was a real issue last year when my sister, a law student at the top of her class-someone who should be a future leader-thought that it would be no big deal to take out an extra $25k in school loans for a nice SUV. Her reasoning was "everyone is doing it"-its true, half of my friends in college loaded up their credit cards with no thought of how to pay it off. I think the issue for this is what my freshman economics prof warned us about: there is not such thing as true bankruptcy anymore. Just like any other consequence in society, we removed true bakruptcy and put in something "not quite as bad." The result is a lack of motivation to change and do better-just like a DS giving a PVT "corrective training." We have taken this out of our society-for a variety of reasons. But the reasons don't matter, what matters is that people of the current generationS have not been given the proper motivation that is supposed to be a key ingrediant to capitolism/democracy or any other system based on independence. They need this failure to teach them consequences/responsibility/choices/sacrifices-any number of things that people HAVE to learn in order to excel. I am confident that we will pull out of this and succeed: the people who designed our society knew this day would happen and designed our gov't so that it can be fixed, and we also simply have too strong of a base not to pull out of this. The point is, humans were never designed to live in a system of luxury as we now live in. There is not any other generation, at any time, in any society, that has lived indoors with such a high life expectancy and level of affluence. For thousands of years 99.9% of the world confronted challenges and discomforts everyday that were simply unavoidable. The people of our time now learn what discomfort is through music and books. Good for us-I hope my children live a long and happy life-but this does mean that we confront some unique problems as a society-problems that simply have never emerged before.

Final thought for those of you who are really depressed, go read the comments on articles in the major newspapers online. You will find an awful lot of middle of the road folks talking about how any idea to the far left or the far right that IS NOT PRACTICAL is bad. I am not saying that I agree with these folks at all (they drive me insane), but I am saying that if 70%-80% of our country is fairly middle of the road with a sense of practicality, we will be fine. They just need to have a good scare and learn some personal/group discipline and we will be fine... So as long as the economy comes around here in the next year or so....



I suppose I should add that I am trying to talk my wife into driving to Montana this weekend to look for property for down the road so that we don't ever have to worry about living around these morons.

Thanks Sigaba for the reinforcement.
 

All that thinking and so little thought. As usual, displaying the verboseness of one so highly educated. All the studies and Names aside, what have "You" actually said.
You make the best statement youcan come up with: "My conclusion from this study is that inasmuch as America is contested terrain and that although these contests have been the cause and consequence of great turmoil, even civil war, our present day trials do not activate fears of totalitarian rule or the rise of socialism through creeping incrementalism."
This statement tells me that you either do not feel concerned at the obvious "incrementalism" being propogated by the present administration or appear pro leftest. Pro leftest being a major side of higher education as demonstrated by the many, many leftist Proffesors in that realm.
Many compare the Left and the Right as being related to the constitution, but fail to realize that the constitution is not a mid line document. It is a "Right" sided document. That makes those who feel to be middle of the roaders, to actually be left of the constitution. Guageing the present administrations moves in reguardsto the constitution there should be great fear "activated". Yes, you are certianly a product of your education.

That's what I see, Blitzzz

Well, I guess that make's me one, too, as I also do not yet sense the level of threat to our personal freedoms which are being expressed by some in this forum and - IMO - fueled by MSM and e-rant hyperbole. However, this does not mean that I do not keep watch and take reasonable precautions based on my perceived levels of threats to my family, community, and nation. I personally have faith in our system of government and its general performance as proven over the last several centuries, and trust any truly nefarious un-Constitutional issues brought on by the current Legislative and Executive bodies will be resolved through the inevitable established process of challenge and review by our Judicial branch.

Based on the opinions being expressed in this debate, I suspect that most of us feel this way about the matter:

“Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.”

- Mark Twain

Richard's tin foil wrapped $.02 :munchin

Richard I agree with you.

I believe there is a lot of self fill end of the world crap on TV, News, etc.

..But yet I too watch for the storms..



Al


PS does my tin hat need to fit over the ears? Just a question. :munchin