Make The Choice
 

You may not like it, but the chances are pretty good (in my opinion) that this is the choice you'll have to make in November 2008. So what choice would you make today if this were your choice?

I don't believe this will be the 2008 pairing.
TS

FYI, I'm done voting for the GOP after Mr. Bush decided to allow 12-20 million illegal criminals citizenship.

I'll be voting for the independants.

I agree with TS; don't think that will be the 08 choice.

I'll vote independent before either of those two.

Fred Thompson

I'd vote for Giuliani, but that's because I think Clinton is the anti-Christ and must be defeated at all costs.

FWIW, I don't think this is going to be the ultimate pairing either. I think there are too many sexists and Hillary haters out there - its the first time in my life I'm totally banking on the sexist male population to hook me up.

On the GOP side... I'm a total hold-out and optimist and I can't believe that the extreme religious right will ever tolerate the left-leaning, twice divorced, Giuliani.

I shutter to think I'm banking on crazy people to make sure this is a decent ticket...

***Edited because spelling is our friend***

Hmmmm, perhaps we need a wager on who the nominees will be since you people don't think I know things . . . :D

In any event, this poll is designed to test what our members will do if this ends up being the matchup, so please humor me.

I voted!

Once this quarter's fundraising dollars have been announced, I'll wager on who I think the nominees will be - even if I have to say "she-who-will-not-be-named." I figure once that happens, Thompson will have announced and more polls will have been taken, so there will be some real numbers to look at for a prediction.

However, I know nothing!

Primary
 

I still say the time to make your fight is in the primary election. For all levels, city, county, state and national. Find the most conservative candidates and support them there.

If they don't win, Oh, well. Bad as some in my party are they are still better than the other side.

Pete

Wondering how soon I'll have to start looking for Rush and Boortz on some underground pirate radio station.

That's not fair....you know who Don Vito Corleone's canidate is!:D

All choices in the poll are lousy. (and could be actual choices)

Voting independent is how Bill Clinton got elected the first time. Given the above choices Giuliani is the only viable option. While I disagree with his abortion stand and despise his 2nd Amendment view he is the best pick of the above three IMHO. He is the most likely to step up the pressure against Islam and kill who needs to be killed. I think you have to be realistic, a third party candidate does not have the juice to win a presidential election today. I hope RL is wrong and we have a true conservative candidate to vote for. Short of that I will vote for the MOST conservative. My .02

Hear hear! Too early for this RL.

Hopefully Fred Thompson

Sir,

Agreed.

IMHO, the party has changed its values.:confused:

Holly

I am going to concur with the popular opinion here.

I do not think that this will be the pairing, I agree that the GOP under the leadership of the POTUS has abandoned its core values, and I will probably stay at home if those are the nominees or vote for an independent. Fred is already jumping in the polls without spending a dime. Even if he does not raise the kind of money Romney has (for all of the good it is doing him), he can run effectively with small internet donations, ala Dean. After all, it is four years later, and the game has changed further.

Frankly, I do not see much difference between Rudy and Hillary's positions. One would be as bad as the other.

Since you seem to be a big Giuliani fan, Counselor, where exactly do he and Hillary disagree, other than in their party affiliation?

Then explain how he is going to win when a third of his party stays home or votes for an Indy.

TR

I would have a similar opinion on the real lack of separation of the two. Rudy G. appears on the surface to be a large wooden elephant being rolled up to the gates of the city.

I am not a big Giuliani fan, but I would not hesitate to vote for him if the choice is between him and Hillary. I do not have time right now to catalogue the differences between the two but, with all due respect, your statement that they are virtually indistinguishable is ridiculous hyperbole. He certainly is liberal on many issues, but to say that he and Hillary are identical is just silly.

Perhaps someone else would like to provide some examples for TR? If no one does, I will try to get to this later.

In 1992, I voted libertarian because I was disgusted with George Bush's betrayal of me and others who had supported him in 1988. In fact, there is an old newspaper article out there somewhere starting off saying that I was "George Bush's worst nightmare," a staunch Republican who wouldn't support him because he had abandoned his base. My rationale was identical to that espoused by many here now. Many others voted as I did (for Perot, a third-party, or not at all), and we ended up with Bill Clinton for 8 years. Looking back, I do not believe that having a Democrat in the White House "woke people up" or otherwise advanced the conservative agenda. To the contrary, we took many steps back and we still have not recovered. I would vote differently this time around.

The issue here is not whether to support Fred Thompson in the primary. That is being discussed in a different thread.

Make The Choice
 

RL there wasn't a NONE of the Above selection!!!! :D

BMT

She's the devil? He's not.

He's a boy, she's...

I'm intrigued enough by RL's assertions that I'm going to spend some serious time researching Giuliani. I hadn't done so as I didn't figure he was anything but a distraction - I mean SERIOUSLY. I'll report back with my findings if RL doesn't get to it first.

ETA: First thing I figured out... I can't spell Giuliani...

For the sake of THE THREAD I went with Rudy. With THE THREAD in mind. Voting independent means Madam President. The Republican base will be pissed with the two front runners in THIS THREAD. A bunch of Republican voters voting independent is just what Camp Hillary wants.
Yes his stand on certain issues is definitely to the left. But I do not believe he will aggressively pursue these past stances. Even if he could. Might want to see who he considers for his VP. But we are talking this thread.
Hillary on the other hand. No matter what she says. We have seen her in the White house once. It will be no different the second time. You know deep down she is a Socialist, Military hating liberal. She will pursue these stances. Even if she can't.
Character concerns me more then past stands on issues. Especially when that stand didn't effect the entire Nation. Being Anti Gun ownership as the Mayor of NY City. Is a lot more convenient, easy and practically mandatory, since the laws were in place for over a decade when he was elected. Then being Anti Gun as president.
We have seen Rudy keep his Cool in a difficult situation, to say the least. Might want to watch a couple of 911 Documentary's, real close. How soon we forget what he did. I believe he attended every Funeral for the Firemen and Police until he broke down. I don't think he was thinking about getting votes either.
All we know about Hillary in a stressful situation. She threw a lamp across the room because Bill got a BJ. Other situation. There were leaks about all the people that tagged along on their overseas trips. Two extra 747 Planes for one trip. Reserving entire Hotels. She fired the entire White House travel Staff. That was as a First Lady. Jesus, what do you think she will do as President. Have Bill shot and fire the pentagon.
Vote independent and this is what you will get.

:D
None of the above would be my choice!
:boohoo

Keith, I like the way you think!

As I said
 

As I said - make your fight in the primary elections. The problem with the primary elections is too many people sit on their butts, don't work, don't help and don't vote. Then they cry like a rat eating onions that "Their" man didn't get in. Then like babies they want to take their ball and go home, sit out the election.

Hey guys - if more people took an active part in the primary elections the candidates would be forced to pay attention. Maybe a little more cream could float to the top.

Pete - who votes in each and every election at the city, county, state and federal level. Sometimes holding my nose.

How many here sent e-mails and called their state Senators about this last shamnesty bill? I did, more than once. I have Dole and Burr's web sites bookmarked and it only takes a few minutes to let them know how I feel on an issue. Phone number is on the site also.

You too, SGM!

Rudy v Hillary
 

I've done some quick and dirty research on both of their past statements, voting records and legislative initiatives. Obviously to some degree you are comparing apples and oranges here because both did/are doing different things in their line of political work - so Rudy clearly has more of a record on crime while Hillary has more of a record on health care. They both talk a ton, and they both contradict themselves even more... so - with that said here's what they currently are saying (and any contradictory proof) on a few of this forum's hot button issues (as I seem them).

TR's assertion that they are one and the same doesn't fall flat on it's face across the board. Where it rings most true is in the character/past personal actions and dealings category that I won't get into since I'm sure we all know enough about that to understand of what I am referencing. The skeletons in their respective closets are just waiting to pop out. But as has been pointed out, Rudy has had many more moments of valor.

Gun Control
They are the same person. On Rudy's website he says that what he did in NYC (filed a huge lawsuit against dozens of weapons manufacturers) isn't necessarily what would and should happen in Montana. He makes a passing reference to his commitment to the 2nd Amendment, but it is half-hearted at best. In 2004 and 2005 Hillary voted No to banning lawsuits against gun manufacturers for gun deaths. She generally hates guns in everything she's said since birth.

Tax Cuts
Rudy likes them [tax cuts] and did manage to get quite a few taxes cut in NYC, Hillary would take them [tax cuts] away and makes no bones about it.

Abortion
Rudy is all over the place here. From his past record and remarks, they look like the same person - neither would ban partial birth abortions despite an exception for the life of the mother. However, Rudy has very VERY recently said that maybe he'd go ahead and ban that too. His campaign website says that he'd ban partial birth abortions, but as late as 2006 he said the opposite. In all other instances, he's a pro-choicer all the way but says that he'd lessen restrictions and costs of adoption.

Gay Rights
They are both looking to be the same person here too. No same-sex marriage, but neither support a ban on it. Both believe in equal benefits for same sex partners. Hillary believes that you only need to "shoot straight, not be straight" to be in the military.

Fiscal Discipline
From what I can figure - they are very different people here. Rudy is all about it and touts what he did in NYC, Hillary voted against any sort of spending reduction package. If she sees the opportunity to spend money, she'll take it.

School Choice
Rudy says yes on vouchers, Hillary calls them gimmicks.

Civil Rights
Rudy believes in water boarding and whatever means necessary to get the bad guys and interrogate them. Hillary has a 60% approval rate by the ACLU and is pushing hard to get tighter privacy restrictions in place. I've clearly glossed over this one - but they couldn't be more different here.

Health Care
Hillary believes in socialized health care. Rudy thinks the poor should get vouchers. Glossing on this one [but there are stark differences]...

Immigration
Hillary voted yes on everything she could get her hands on this past May. She's all about handing out the social security benefits, the guest worker program, citizenship, etc. Rudy seems a lot more lukewarm on the idea saying they can have ID cards and be allowed to work although in 2006 he said he supported the guest worker program.

War on Terror
Giuliani seems like he'd be rock solid on this but he has in the past waffled a little calling the war in Iraq misdirected. If we overlook a few of his past comments, he's generally of the direction that a timed departure is a very bad idea and that we need to fight this out to the finish, etc. He has been moderately aggressive in his wording on Iran and nukes. He's softly hawkish - not McCain, but McCain-lite. You can't be running as "America's Mayor" and not be fairly strong on this whole thing. Hillary doesn't know what she wants here - on one hand she hates the war, on the other hand she "loves the troops" (just doesn't want to see them in uniform). On one hand she wants to pull out and on the other hand she votes for funding and is unrepentant about doing it the first time too. She's trying to play both sides. But while they've both waffled a bit - you can't say they are the same person because they aren't - it is two ends of a spectrum of waffling.

I'm sure there are nuances of their positioning I've missed because neither are 100% clear on all their issues, but that's my take on what I've read.

Edited because when I read it again I realized that I mistyped a few things that made it sound like they were going to ban partial birth abortions and that Rudy was for taxes... clarified...hopefully it makes more sense now.

I'm probably the most left-leaning person here. I'd categorize myself as a "conservative Democrat" and I'm going to probably vote Biden in the primary for what thats worth.

I don't 100% loathe Hillary like I used to (its like 95% now), but I'm not going to vote for her if the Republican candidate makes any attempt at centrism. Guliani, Thompson, McCain, Romney, and Huckabee would all probably get my vote over Hillary but I'd take a decent look at a third party candidate too in that situation.

In anycase, I still don't think she'll win the nomination. Dean had a commanding lead just like this last year and where'd he end up? The woman has such a lack of charm that its a complete void. Even light can't escape its gravitational pull. Thats going to catch up to her eventually just like Dean's temper did him in.

Shar that was a great post!!! Right along my thoughts...there is no real difference.

If all we have to pick from is Rudy or Hillary were all screwed! :(

At their core both are politicians doing or saying anything right now to get elected. Rudy is only slightly better than Hillary in the personality department IMO!!!

Not much unless your preference is for lying, scheming, two faced plagerizing nepotists! Then what do I know I just live here. The land of the liberal...'tis silly place!

Despite my vehement disagreement with them on many issues, I'll vote Libertarian. I see very little difference between Rudy and Hillary in deed.

In a nutshell: I'm not a Republican/Democrat/Libertarian. I'm a classical liberal. I believe we need the minimum government necessary to provide for the common defense of the nation and the protection our inalienable rights as annoted in the US Constitution. Unlike the Libertarian Party, I believe this includes a secure border and crushing those who would do us harm. I won't even start with my belief that the military has an obligation to ensure the elected representatives don't usurp our Constitutionally protected rights.

RL, it will be interesting to see the differences between the Republocrats when you have a chance to post them. :munchin

Double-tap. Sorry about that.

Doesn't that describe all polititians?

The Republican field ain't exactly pocket aces either. ;)

SHAR,
Thanks for the post, you have given me a basis for some of my own homework.

I think this thread is evidence of that. But I believe Goggles was referring to Joe Biden. I concur with his assessment.

I know he was. I was responding more to the "land of the liberal" jab than the critique of Biden, which certainly has some truth to it. In anycase, no candidate is perfect, but you've got to order off the menu and he's the one I like best so far.

Honestly, whoever wins, my greatest hope for the election is just that it be an honorable and thorough debate rather than the sideshows we've had the last couple of runs. At this point regaining some integrity in the political process is more important to me than a partisan win.

Just one dude's opinion...

Tax Revenues
 

Maybe I've been asleep for a couple of days but what Independents are their to even consider ?

Guiliani, while as socially liberal as Hillary at least understands that tax revenues driven by a loose money supply to the consumers (tax payers) balances budgets and in fact creates a surplus. Democrats have alway's championed their ability to create a budget surplus but have yet to actually spend the suplus for any of their social pet rock projects. They, democrats have alway's left the surplus in place for the Republicans to spend it on necessary endeavors and then use this spending as a talking point on the Sunday morning talkshows. Hillary has promised to raise the individual tax rates and to repeal the Bush tax breaks to the highest income earners and yet each and every one in the crowd that she engages applauds loudly as if she is giving them gifts like Oprah Winfrey. :rolleyes: Sheep following the herd without any clue that they are being lead to the edge of the cliff. It's actually hard to watch so many Americans with so little understanding of how their new "free health care" is going to be funded. And let's not forget that Hillary wants a national data base of all your medical records. Just in case your on vacation and have to visit the nearest ER for a sprained ankle. If you happen to take a anti depressent for sleep then your going to part of the data base that disallows you to purchase firearms. Tricks of the trade without ever having to mention the "gun control" issue.

As of today at least on poll has Fred Thompson neck and neck with Rudy Guiliani. Of course the democratic strategist interviewed this evening on H&C and O'Reilly dismiss it as a fluke. It's no fluke.

In all the reading I've done today you've nailed where they are the most different - and I'd say 100% opposite. Rudy is about tax cuts and being fiscally conservative, Hillary will take them away at the quickest opportunity and spend ---- because it takes a village people!!!

A few other interesting tidbits...

Giuliani is credited for creating the "perp walk"

Hillary isn't really human :eek:

Regardless of who wants who or don't want who, this is still early. Go back four years and see who was top dog this time of year, and see who made it, or go back 8 years. Ten months from now we will have a better picture on who will run.

A small note" 4 years ago, on the D's were slugging it out for top dog.

Hillary
 

At this point I'm convinced that Hillary is in fact the Democratic nominee for POTUS in 08. The Clintons are an evil pair, willing to fight dirty, corrupt to a point of stomach sickness and have the backing by George Soro's and other large contributors to her compaign. She also has the benefit of a left friendly media. Interesting is that of those polled female college graduates can't stand her while non college gradutes are the ones blinded by a false sense of loyalty to the first female POTUS concept regardless of the corruption that Hillary that is capable of.

The immigration reform bill is not about being friendly to Mexicans it's about gaining extended family absortian into the registered voting landscape. Estimated that another 40,000,000 extended family members would flood the U.S. and they are most certainly going to vote democrat. They dont know any better and they dont have too. Just getting them registered to vote provides the democrats with an estimated 52,000,000 votes in at least the next election cycle. Hillary is all for this as are Chuck Shumer, Harry Ried and every other liberal bobble head in congress and senate. It's sad that the only way democrats can see socializing America is to force a major infiltration of immigrants. They seem to be unable to forcast long term consequences of their legilative action. As if I should have been surprised. :rolleyes:

Personally I think Fred Thompson is not nearly as strong as I'd like him to be in the few interviews that I've witnessed. He needs to brings the claws out and it's not happening. At least not yet. Perhaps he'll throw them out once he's announced he is actually running.

I cannot vote for Rudy but I can vote for Fred.

82nd, I agree the Clintons are a force to be careful with. There is some speculation that in last election B. Clinton had his operation when he did so he did not have to really campaign for Kerry. I think it is probably a strong desire of Hillary to become the first female POTUS. If Kerry would have been elected the D's candidate for president could have been tied up for at least 8 years or longer.

Probably between now and Jan. 2008 will determine how well Senator Thompson will do. One advantage of being in Oregon, our primary is later than most.

I think this will be a very interesting election. With both parties open as to whom will run. The D's tend to be very good at bleeding themselves in the primary, especially when the stakes are as open as they are. That could help any Republican candidate.

Currently, as with other here, I feel Senator Thompson is the best choice. A lot can happen between now and a year from now.