No man left behind?
 

I recently read the article on page 16 of this issue (Two SEALS win Navy Cross) and was left with a question that I would like to put before you all. I did some searching first but can’t find where or if the topic has been covered before. The question is this: When is it okay to leave a wounded teammate behind?
I firmly believe that all of the men on this team are heroes. The man that E and E’d has accomplished far more than I will ever come close to and I would never denigrate his service. That being said, as a former 11B the thought of leaving a wounded teammate behind is not an option. Having never been SF or even SOF, Is there is doctrine that I’m ignorant of that would require such a difficult decision? Any thoughts?

While I am sure that many can come up with all kinds of scenarios I can only answer that in no case would I, nor would any of those for whom I ever was responsible ever think that I would, leave anyone behind. If it is nothing else, it is a matter of honor, trust, and sacred responsibility to those you are charged to lead.

You think it any different with us? Leaving a wounded soldier behind is not an option with us either.

TS

Leave a wounded team mate behind? Never. It has been my experience that other soldiers and airmen have died trying to get wounded soldiers out! Friends and strangers volunteer to make the effort.

And by the same token, I would never think of leaving a wounded cop in harms way!

Jim

I am nearly convinced that there is a lot of information not being included about the action of these men. At least, I'd like to think so. On the face of what I have seen - limited to what PAO has cleared regarding the awards to these sailors - it left me scratching my head. I viewed the film of these men being discovered by their foes and their equipment being exploited. At the time, I did not think much of the "why" of the situation. But, with further thought into it, it does not add up: One team mate seems to have been killed either upon the first portion of the engagement, or certainly before the others. That leaves three very lonely warriors trying to push back the proverbial "Mongolian Horde" until the QRF arrives. Originally, I believed that the reason one SEAL lived was that while the last three were fighting for their lives, the other two were killed by enemy fire. This left one man who, I believed, subsequently evaded out of the area successfully. But, reading the PAO release regarding these awards, the survivor left as the other two continued fighting. This does not make sense to me. There is definitely information missing here - or, something went seriously wrong. I can't see myself, or any of my own, leaving the others to fight to the death like that.

Again, I have to default to the faith I have in our fellow SOF warriors and I am compelled to believe that there is information missing here. At least, I sincerely hope so.

Another lesson for that particular event is never, ever, take a hard drive loaded with "classified" information with you unless you definately can't memorize what's on it and what's on it is mission essential. Heck, the school house teaches to memorize everything and burn all the planning "scrap", save for the mission folder which is left back with the AST, or a team mate. But, that's another discussion for those that have seen the footage I'm referring to.

I was wondering about all that, too. The only thing I could think of is that they realized they were going to get overrun and they decided, "Hey, not all of us need to die. You lost the toss, buddy. Haul ass and E&E out of here. We'll hold them off for you."

Certainly a plausible scenario.

No one should ever attempt to critique an op beased on an unclassified PAO release.

No one should ever attempt to critique an op without having been there unless there is a compelling reason for doing so and unless you can get as close to the bottom of it as humanly possible.

No one should ever attempt to critique an op on the open internet.

I agree with Base:
Well said.

I agree with the other gentlemen, wounded or dead you never leave family behind. I know for a fact having a few friends in or out of SF that if there was an SOP on that subject they would never follow it. And GOD bless them for that.

I do not believe we were discussing the dead. That's a whole nuther can of worms.

While large conventional units usually have the ability to immediately recover the dead after a battle that is not always the situation with Special Forces operations.

TS

Agree 100%.

I don't want a brother paying with his life to come get my body after I am done with it.

Leave it, or pick it up next time you are in the neighborhood.

I also do not want to be writing several more letters to families because I sent people out to recover an obviously dead soldier while under fire. We'll pick him up after we win the fight.

TR

Perspective
 

I was apart of the recovery effort, I inserted a team to recover the bodies of the QRF and I also saw to the recovery of Marcus (the sole survivor). Another part of my job besides recovery is the reintegration of isolated personnel so I was also privileged to conduct his debrief and subsequent investigation (not a criminal probe but an initial tactical debrief with a dual role of looking after his medical and mental health). As some of you have correctly guessed there is a whole lot of information not being released.

Here's the picture I want you to understand. You are being engaged by an enemy who has the high ground, he has fire superiority and is maneuvering on you. There is no CAS available. So, imagine breaking contact with four teammates running downhill in terrain so steep that you all essentially have to throw yourselves off small cliffs and outcroppings. As you can see this situation makes it hard to do a lot of things. Can you imagine how hard if not ridiculous it would be for me to attempt to rescale a small cliff I just threw myself off of when I'm already running downhill with a persistent enemy who is engaging me effectively and still outmaneuvering me and now I have less suppressive covering fire because I'm down a teammate or two by now. The one teammate that is close to me I saw get shot and the only thing I could do was throw him off the cliff with me until his body goes into a tumble into ground that I dare not follow him into.

I'm the first to admit that I know I don't know $hit about much but none of us would want to leave a wounded man behind, but could I ever be in a position that will force me too... Yes, maybe... But I sure hope I'll never see that day... We all do.

I hope this helps with perspective,

JLF

Thank you JLF, for the perspective.

And thanks JLF for doing what you do, where you do it, and when you have to do it.

I don't do much posting here, I mainly just read. I showed this thread to another vet I know. He's an old crusty Sergeant Major that comes into my place of business alot. He said, and I quote:

"You weren't there son, so don't worry about it. Only one person knows what happened-unless you know something [he] don't fugetaboutit!"

I thank you all for what you do.

Merry Christmas to you all where ever you are.

Never leave a fallen comrade,
to fall into the hands of the enemy!!!!

I think Leaving a wounded soldier behind is not an option. How many of us it abandoned one of our brothers in the hand of our enemies????

Mace, you might want to read the rules again...especially before you post again.

Team Sergeant

I think that about a unit as of the special operations the this is not an option, all forms one team, in set leaves and comes back together, never to leave one of our brothers stops backwards.

This is my perspective

MACE!!!!

Pull you head out of your 4th point of contact and do as Team Sergeant advised!!!

#1 Fill out your Profile!!!

#2 Make your next Post AFTER FILLING OUT PROFILE in the Introduction Thread!!

YOU WERE TOLD ALL OF THIS WHEN YOU REGISTERED!!!

Comply or BE-GONE!!

Have a Very SF DAY!!!

LOL, I don't know Ambush Master you think he/she understood that?:D

Was that even English? Maybe Esperanto, or some language twins teach each other....

It forgives had not read the message of the sergeant, will not come back to happen again itself

WTF? :confused: :confused: :confused:

Option seems to imply one has a choice.

Cases that I know of.

July 3rd, A 1/9 was clearing a road out of Chu Lai. They started to be hit by random fire. Thinking it was snipers, they swept for snipers. What turned out was 2 battalion of NVA reinforced with heavy artillery.

The critical wounded who could not be moved was propped up to return fire and the rest of the company pulled back to re-group.

What followed the rest of the day was about 150 Marines KIA, 2nd and 3rd Battalion reacted. At the end of the engagement 1/9 was pulled from the field and 1/3 was used to reinforce 2/9 and 3/9.

Early August 1969, Echo 2/3 was overrunned and lost their position though being reinforced with the rest of 2/3.

My battalion 3/3 replaced 2/3 in the field. L 3/3 assualted the old position of E 2/3 to recover bodies of 5 Marines. L 3/3 lost 9 Marines KIA in the assualt.

Could we be accused of leaving a fellow Marine behind? It was out goal to never do so. Some goals are not achieved all the times.

Generally critically wounded was priority 1 Med-Evac, then the KIA, then others. If we had to, we would hump our dead to a better LZ. I think we did everything possible to "never leave behind", but that sometimes under heavy fire, a very difficult task to accomplish or maybe impossible at the time.

From Mace's IP address he's is from a European country.........

Mace you get a second chance.

TS

And when you have complied with that, fill out your profile.

Hark!!!

I hear an echo!!!:D

TS, I think you're about to be in the next Borat movie...:eek:

To answer the original question, "When is it ok to leave a wounded man behind?" I would have to say Never. I simply can't imagine turning my back to any of the teammates I have spent time TDY with. If I ever get in that situation, I'll be sure to post and let you know what happens. But I can give you a great example from yesterday:

There were kids in VT that had the chance to jump from a window to save their own asses after the killer left their classmates bleeding and in mortal danger. The killer moved onto another classroom. While many students ran, some did not. They stayed in the kill zone. They blocked doors, slapped bandages, and comforted their friends. They didn't run though. As a direct result they saved the lives of their wounded classmates by denying the shooter a second chance at the wounded. All this without the benefit of basic training too.

I for one have been inspired by some of the stories coming from VT.

In the know...
 

Two weeks ago I was involved in joint services training with other members of SOF to include MARSOC and NSW. I met two SEALs that personally know the surviving operator in the incident that sparked this thread. One of the men I spoke to was in the very same platoon with that man. The explanation I received was that the surviving SEAL was blown off and away down a hill by an RPG during the ambush. The fact that he survived that is a miracle. He did not leave his comrades behind; after all, he's a US SOF member and we don't do that.

EOM
BAS SENDS

Thanks BAS. As Paul Harvey would say, now we know the rest of the story. Good day.

Thank you for your patience!!

Thanks for second chance, I'm glad to be here!

Thank you, sincerelly!!!

Follow up..
 

I found the link below on SOCNET, but it's an article posted on Newsday.com. The article goes into detail about the Navy SEAL Lt. who lead a team of SEALs on Operation Red Wing where only one SEAL survived. JLF's account of what happened is reflected in this article and I thought anyone who was interested in hearing about their mission would like to read this.


http://www.newsday.com/news/local/lo...5.storygallery

Take it easy gentlemen, back to more PT.

As I can obviously tell, this topic has been covered ad nauseam, but I thought I would put my two cents in regardless. Though I have never been in the field myself and have never been in a situation where it would call for my decision, I would like to think that my team mates would bring me back regardless. At least for my family's sake.

I once heard about a Delta force guy who carried his dead partner on his back along with his and some of his partner's gear over 5 miles out of the war zone with 3 bullet wounds, a knife wound, and third degree burns over half his body.

It may not be true, but regardless. I believe no man should be left behind.

-Will

You should have followed your own advice in your intro, and kept your mouth shut.

Read my comments following your Intro post and stay out of these grown-up discussions. Your input is not needed on this sort of subject. You have no war stories, nor any facts to share. Once you have risked you life, and the lives of others, you MIGHT have some input. Till then, you live in a protected fantasy world, where talk is cheap.

When we get to Pop Culture, you can jump right in. Till then, stay in your lane.

TR

Was that the one staring Chuck Norris and Lee Marvin???
Admin Edit: You bumped a month old thread with this? Be part of the solution and not the problem. NDD

Washington Post frontpage feature on the surviving SEAL from Operation Redwing. I heard its excerpted from a future book.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...061001492.html

The book, The Lone Survivor, was released just about a week ago. I'm half way through it.

/hijack

Wow.
What an utterly miserable situation to be in.

My $0.02
 

Quote "No one should ever attempt to critique an op without having been there unless there is a compelling reason for doing so and unless you can get as close to the bottom of it as humanly possible." end quote.

DITTO! Wow, can't believe I'm entering this kill zone.

For some more perspective, read Plaster's books. Many had to leave bodies and/or split team members, and many died going back to get them. I did several "Bright Lights" in SOG. In fact, I was on the bird that was shot out when we tried to get Fat Albert's body - it's in John's last book were he ID'd me as the chase medic. BTW, I wasn't a medic - I was on another RT waiting for infil and volunteered as an extra gun for the Bright Light Team.

Been there - done that!!!

I agree with the crusty old SGM in one of the other posts - No one has room to criticize unless they were there.

Signed,
A crusty old SF CSM(R)