Why Do Some Army Recruits Fail?
 

Atlanta Journal-Constitution
November 15, 2006
Pg. 1

Why Do Some Army Recruits Fail?

The science of the 'right stuff'; Researchers seek to understand -- and overcome -- the biology of stress that makes some men and women fail to complete basic training.

By Bill Hendrick

Fort Benning -- It's a sunny day on Malone Range 11 and more than 200 fresh-faced recruits are sweating in the dust of aptly named Sand Hill, preparing to fire their M16-A2 assault rifles for the first time under the gaze of bellowing drill sergeants.

Someone else is watching too: a soft-spoken scientist, 63-year-old Dr. William "Hawk" Reeves of the Atlanta-based Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

He's part of a team of researchers enlisted by the Army to find out why so many young men and women who want to become soldiers wash out of basic training and get sent home.

The Army, fighting wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and with commitments elsewhere, is stretched so thin that this year it raised the maximum enlistment age to 42, the highest since at least World War I, according to military historian Donald Goldstein of the University of Pittsburgh. During the Vietnam War, men could sign up until age 34.

Now the Army has signed up Reeves and a half-dozen other scientists to find ways to reduce the 15 percent basic-training attrition rate and keep the ranks from thinning more -- and to keep from wasting the $20,000 every washout costs taxpayers.

Sergeants may be tough on the recruits, but they work hard to turn every one into a soldier. Some of those who run into trouble get "recycled" -- forced to repeat training. Some who get sent home are found to have lied about mental problems such as depression, or about previous injuries or medical conditions like asthma.

Some just decide they want to quit, and are sent home if counselors can't convince them to give it another try, said Maj. Roger Bannon, 48, of Fortson, one of the researchers. A few can't cope with the battery of probing questionnaires that can dredge up bad memories of childhood. Some go into counseling.

Search for 'biomarkers'

Reeves and Dr. James F. Jones, both experts on chronic fatigue at the CDC, are studying the blood of trainees for stress "biomarkers" they hope will predict which ones are most likely to have trouble. Jones was recruited to work for the CDC four years ago after 20 years at the University of Colorado.

Psychologists from a handful of universities, including Emory, are also participating in the study, focusing on signals as to who's likely to get pushed over the edge by stress.

From the time the recruits pour off the buses that bring them to Fort Benning, the stress is unrelenting.

They're greeted with screams. Their heads are sheared. They're told not to talk or lean against walls, that they can't go to the bathroom without permission. They're yelled at during close-order drill, while running, in mess-hall lines, and when they're tear-gassed (to prepare them for gas attacks).

The first do-or-die test of their susceptibility to life's stressors comes on the rifle range, where the trainees are told they must learn to shoot straight or they'll either fail or start all over again, which could be psychologically disastrous, said Army Col. Richard Gonzalez, 52, the study's principal investigator.

Gonzalez dreamed up the project after returning to Fort Benning from a 14-month stint as a front-line surgeon in Afghanistan.

"In Afghanistan, soldiers were constantly fatigued," said Gonzalez, a physician and chief of the Departments of Surgery and Warrior Care at Fort Benning's Martin Army Community Hospital. "When I got back here last year, I saw the same kind of fatigue [among trainees]. I wanted to look at soldiers from the beginning, wondering about stress-related problems."

As a scientist and 30-year Army veteran, he began a search for answers in medical journals, and found peer-reviewed studies indicating CDC researchers had isolated stress markers in the blood that correlated with extreme fatigue.

The markers are proteins and hormones in the blood, and they can reveal how much stress a person has endured during a lifetime, Gonzalez said.

A rush of stress hormones or proteins, said the CDC's Jones, not only can trigger mental problems, but also can weaken a soldier's immune system and bones, leading to stress fractures that are common in basic training.

Constantly frazzled

On Malone Range 11, the men can see their sergeants, but also observers like Reeves, an energetic man who on one recent day walked up and down behind the firing line, dressed in black uniform, black boots and a black boonie field hat that made his snow-white beard stand out.

Pvt. Michael Jaramillo, 23, of Madison said the firing range is nerve-wracking "because nobody wants to fail."

It's a no-brainer that the recruits are constantly frazzled, but Gonzalez wants to look for under-the-skin signs of life's accumulated stress that he hopes will provide clues about which soldiers may have problems in combat -- or sooner.

After finding studies that seemed to describe illnesses in troops he'd seen firsthand, both in Afghanistan and at Fort Benning, he applied for and won a $250,000 grant from the Army's scientific arm and contacted the CDC, which embraced the idea.

Gonzalez said his hope is that blood markers found in recruits will give the Army the information it needs to make training less stressful. A change in diet, or vitamins and medicines could bolster their health.

When the recruits of Echo Company got off their buses in early September, they not only were greeted by sergeants bellowing orders, but also by Bannon, a wisecracker who calmly explained to the privates that a study was about to start and that they could volunteer to answer a few extra questionnaires and give a little more blood than other rookies. Most volunteered and agreed to give more blood and answer more questions on sick call visits and at the end of training in December.

"We have the blood and urine before training starts that should tell us something about their stress," Bannon said. "We'll have that to compare with the same markers if they wash out or get recycled or sent to medical rehab. And then we'll test it all again after the ones who make it graduate. It's a perfect laboratory."

Bannon said, "Our hypothesis is that those who get through will show fewer biological stress factors than those who don't or those who get hurt or go on sick call a lot."

In the spring, Bannon said, a similar study will be done at Fort Jackson, S.C., on female recruits, who wash out at three times the rate of men. Then the scientists will try out various interventions on new recruits, hoping to see if small changes in routine or diet can help.

"It's a good bet that people with a lot of stress markers will have more trouble than those who don't," Bannon said.

Body stores stress

Stress, Bannon said, "is permanent but it's also dynamic. From the time you were born, your central nervous system started experiencing stressors. If you had an abusive stepparent who drank Budweiser and whenever he drank, he got very violent and hit you with his red shovel over the head, the stress is stored in your body."

Psychological tests, he said, can reveal whether a soldier came from a bad environment at home and is just looking for a new home in the Army.

Jones, 64, isn't as flamboyant as Reeves, who is given to shooting any kind of weapon he can get his hands on and even crawling around under live rifle fire in the dark with recruits.

Reeves also fired an M16-A2 right alongside the recruits, and did as well as an expert marksman.

Inside the CDC, he's just known as an expert on physiological markers of cumulative wear and tear on the body caused by inadequate adaptation to accumulated stress.

"No study has specifically evaluated these variables as risk factors for injury, illness or heat exhaustion following acute stress," Gonzalez said. "Once we find that elevated [stress levels] indicate a soldier at risk, you can train him differently, smarter, employ relaxation techniques. This is what we hope."

U.S. Army demographics

2005 -- White: 66.9%, Black: 14.5%, Hispanic: 13.2%

2001 -- White: 60.2%, Black: 22.3%, Hispanic: 10.5%

Average age of recruits -- 2005: 20.8 years, 2001: 19.8 years

Source: Chicago Tribune

Probably could have saved them a lot of money and time with a simple summary statement:

"Like most everything in life, it ain't for everyone..."

"Bellowing" drill sergeants is the reason. 99 percent of them are morons who would urinate or soil their trousers if they were ever forced to prove their marksmanship ability in front of those recurits.

Threatening recruits on a rifle range is moronic beyond description. Treating recruits as morons who can't be soldiers until they prove themselves by doing stupid things that require no thought or common sense is worse.

You want a professional force? Breed a professional force through leadership and action based on intelligence as opposed to ego building intimidation.

This goes for SFAS as well as Basic IMHO.

Gene

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Why Do Some Army Recruits Fail?
 

This is stuff I have given alot of thought to in the last 40+ years. I have no problem smoking their ass.

BRM or WTF it's called now is best taught by a committee of QUALIFIED instructors. Ain't no way in hell each BCT Co. has the same standards of training for BRM.

I think back to my time as a DS. Our range time was taken very serious. If we had a trainee on the zero range having problems, we pulled him off the line and explained to him how to correct that problem. Some just don't understand what you are trying to teach them.Maybe they think breathing, trigger squeeze is BS. Sarge I never had a problem shootin' my Granddaddies shotgun!! ;-)

I wonder how many trainee's have NEVER fired a weapon??

I could go on an on but I'll stop for now and let someone else comment.

BMT

"Bellowing" drill sergeants is the reason. 99 percent of them are morons who would urinate or soil their trousers if they were ever forced to prove their marksmanship ability in front of those recruits."

You don't like Drill Sergeants?????

I do not know how it is today, but since the Army has become a "kinder and more gentile place" when dealing with trainees.......I doubt range week is different from when I was a Drill Sergeant. In my day there was no screaming on the range. Drill Sergeants spent days with poor shooters reteaching and practicing sight picture and trigger control exercises.

I would classify very few Drill Sergeants as morons. And all of us could take a trainee's weapon and qualify with it. Each of had to qualify annually and if you didn't qualify in the expert range..... you had remedial training and re-qualified.

Jim

Why Do Some Army Recruits Fail?
 

This is the first time in their life they have EVER been on a schedule.

Think back most of us here are from a diffirent era.
1. Did you have a bedtime?
2. Did you eat 3 meals a day?
3. Did you have certain chore's to do after school?

Majority of today's trainee's never had or did any of the above!!

Another failure of Mom and Pop to properly raise their children. New babies do not have a owner's manual stenciled on their ass when they are born. :munchin

BMT

Is stress the reason for trainee failures? I don't think so. How we view things is what raises or lowers stress levels. A weak willed and weak minded individual is a weak ass and does not belong in the military.

If a trainee can not handle the stress of basic training and weapons qualification how is he or she going to handle a firefight, getting ambushed, or seeing friends die? If the wheat can no longer be separated from the chaff in basic, where is the point at which it should be done?

Jim

I could not agree more. Mental toughness is hard to imbue in those that have hid behind mommy's apron strings all their lives.

Gene, I don't agree with you on this. I think basic should be as stressful as we can make it in order to weed out the sissies before we place them on the battlefield. I would rather a kid go home and flip burgers than be sent home to his mom in a flag drapped box.

Why don't we have a SFAS for basic training? A stress test to seperate those that would be warriors from those that should never face an armed enemy?

I agree with all of the above, but would like to add a few things -
Discipline - from the 'rents and self discipline is lacking.
A sense of entitlement - kids aren't asked to work for anything, (see discipline) and therfore have no value to place on what they get.
At home, I want becomes I get - and upon joining the service - the culture shock of I want, therefore I must work in order to excel and prove that I am worthy to get, is so foreign that the mollycoddled wusses scream unfair. Soldiering is not for the faint of heart, the weak of spirit, nor those unwilling to work for it - soldiering is stressful, requires commitment, requires work, requires discipline, and requires integrity. Those kids joining the military that think it's just a job, that scream when sent into harm's way, that desert for the same reason - aren't soldiers - soldiers realize that even if you are a clerk you are an American Fighting Man, and may be called upon to go to battle, that is your job, first and foremost.

***rant over*** now back to our regularly scheduled discussions.....

In my mind stress is critical in the formation of a dependable warrior. USMC has been turing out a good product with high stress fast paced training environment. While the idea that every Marine is a rifleman is a little far flung you have to appreciate the intent and mentality of that philosophy. Keep stress levels high and if the recruit can't take it kindly show him the door and give him a t-shirt for his efforts.

BMT,
I'm fully convinced that you've hit the nail right on the head!!! (for what its worth)

It seems to me the Army is getting really desperate. We have a new soldier in our platoon, and his explanation for being late to our first formation was that he had a wild night last night. Apparently he had to go to the commisary--then he dropped a friend off at Blockbuster, and then he babysat a neigbhor's dog, and he wasnt used to a dog sleeping in his bed, it was wild-- so he didnt get any sleep. A wild night sleeping with a dog. Personal Responsibility. Loyalty. Personal Honor. I dont think the military really champion those virtues anymore, things seem to have transitioned over to the corporate schema. Risk assesments popping up for every possible activity is also de-emphasizing personal responsibility. But, honestly I cant even understand what kind of household raised these children, maybe that's because I had an overbearing military father. If I wanted something I always had to work for it by doing household chores, or getting a summer job, etc. Even at eleven, as insane as it sounds; I wanted to quit the Boy scouts, and my father made me honor my commitment for that final year. I resented that at the time, but I relish the opportunity he gave me now as I have not degenerated into the type of person I regularly see around me. Sighs.


Jorje

I think we are back to statistics again. Commanders looking to achieve 100 percent in all things. That is how they get graded. Therefore it is more important to graduate as close to 100 percent of a company of trainees than graduate those who show the potential to be good soldiers and eliminate the weak.

Jim

I have never been associated with basic training or basic traninees so I can only assume you must be talking about your own experience and knowledge here because it certainly does not measure up to my meager experiences in other environments. We all sort of went throught this zero defeck mentality back in the 70's where everything had to be perfeck. But speaking as a person who has been a "commander" I have never allowed myself to be measured by nor have I measured my subordinate "commanders" by their ability to achieve 100 percent in all things. While some things were invioable in my book they had more to do with qualities and not quantities. That is not to be confused with holding folks accountable for meeting standards of performance for particular tasks and under specified conditions.

Touche!

As I was leaving the Army in '89 there seemed to be a lot of statistical information put on evaluation reports (officer and enlisted). And it didn't seem to matter the cause or reason for the high or low stats; something I attributed to over inflated evaluations Army wide.

Jim

Why Do Some Army Recruits Fail?
 

When I was a DS in the BCT Reg't at Gordon '63-'64 the only thing we taught at company level was DD.
Someone got the bright idea to start writing OER's based on the end of cycle proficiency test and range score's.

You have never saw so much lying, stealing and cheating in your life.
Co. Cmdr starting making us stay an extra 2 hours 4 night's starting in the fifth week of training. We had copy's of the test. You can belive he went home at 1730. I got the asshole shipped to Alaska. :D
That's when I decided to pack my bag's and head to Bragg.

BMT

TS:

An assesement and selection process is a good idea.

My comments on the qual issue is because the intent is to qualify to Army standards in order to pass Basic. Harassment as the soldier is trying to qualify hardly assists in meeting the intent as it stands today. If the intent is to see who can qualify with someone harassing the shooter as he is trying to qualify, then I won't argue with it as long as the harassment is part of the conditions and is evenly distributed.

IMHO, Basic and AIT are intended to conditon the soldier to the Army system and culture. Unfortunately, the system and culture they are being prepared to assimilate into is sometimes radically different than the system and culture of a TOE unit. This may sound weird but TOE units are generally grossly inefficient in all aspects of time and resource management while Basic and AIT absolutely must be perfect in these two things. However, TOE units by an large show a degree of common sense leadership that probably surpasses Basic and AIT. Basic and AIT follow strict doctrine and most DIs will admit that much of the time spent doing things in Basic or AIT has no value when it comes to the soldier becoming part of a TOE unit. There is no leeway to change the doctrine and in many cases, a DI has no choice but to train guys in a manner that itself may be ineffective or inefficient.

Two summers ago we spent about ten days of every thirty training replacements for the Brigade. These replacements ranged from soldiers just out of AIT, officers out of the Basic Course, and NCOs and Officers who had been to Iraq already and were going back for a second tour. Bottom line is that Basic and AIT did not prepare soldiers for combat. This varied between the combat arms. The 19Ds were the best prepared. Then the 11's, then the Artillery. We didn't get any tankers as we hadn't fielded the MGS Stryker. The CS and CSS were experienced with weapons to the degree that can be expected even though these branches knew absoloutely that their CS and CSS troops had a very high probability that they would have to use those weapons. Put it to you this way, we bought twenty M-68's so we could train the Infantry AIT replacements on a sight that has been general issue to the Infantry for several years. The Brigade CSM sent us twenty sets of Oakleys from Iraq so we could train with eye protection. There was such a total difference between the ideas and concepts these guys brought from Basic and AIT and the reality of a TOE unit in combat that it was scary. I am thankful that we were given the time with these guys to do what we did before they deployed.

Conversely, it was very apparent that the Combat Arms OBC's did do a good job of preparing the LTs for combat -- from individual skills through leadership. From what I understood talking with these LT's, the OBC courses seem to have an easier time when it comes to changing what is being trained and why.

I don't envy Drill Sergeants. Many of them get slammed for things that don't make sense to me. They really have to be totally aware of every potential thing that can get them in serious trouble. Very high stress IMHO. One thing about them is that the ones who last through a tour seem to have a desire to go back "On the Trail" as they say.

Gene

Very true. Ours tell us daily how much they can't wait to get off Sand Hill and get back to the real Army.

About an hour left on pass. One month to Infantry school graduation, then another step forward in the pipeline. I can't express how much I look forward to getting into a class of 18 candidates instead of 11-series trainees. Thanks again to those here who let us candidates enter the process somewhat forewarned.

BMT this is very well said. This maybe off, but my .02

I teach my kids to say Yes & No Sir/Mama, thank you, and Please to welcome. Very few if any parents do this.

I think if we as parent teach our children the right and wrong along with the values that the Greatest Generation was brought up with, maybe America would have a better chance in the World arena. We fail as parents because we are looking at ourselves and not looking at those kids. American’s are more worried but Dick and Jane than there kids.

Our Cities make laws for a city that kids can’t play football to baseball in the streets, but the city fails to make parks for the kids to play in.

Why do kids fail in the military training center. To me it’s all about America failing as a parent and/or a teacher.

I did a year at Ft Lost in the Woods, Leonardo Wood, not as a DS. While I was there I had two guys that were with me back in 27th ENG that were now DS. They hated just about every minute of it. Why, because of the “rules” to protect the Trainees. BCT was to break them down and make the as a unit not as an individual.

I remember the “rules” put on us non DS NCOs. I remember be counseled about having told a soldiers to fix their uniform and head gear. I told two soldiers (trainees) that were walking back from a chow hall to fix their top because it wasn’t buttoned right and one at all. They had they caps kicked back like most all wear Ball caps now. When I walked up to the Chow hall the two DS outside ask me, me in uniform, what Company I was with. I told me basically I couldn’t talk to the Trainees. Long story short, it made its way back to my Company 1SG. He was cool with it and just told me don’t talk to the trainees just tell their DS. This Post has it rule and we, NCOs can’t use our General authority to correct a Suck-up (with a F). Living on a BCT base sucks because of the rule, at that time I was single so the few bars I would go to I had to look hard to ensure the chic I was talking to wasn’t a trainee.

I just got back from tdy at Ft Jackson a week ago, and it's the same way. Part of the initial briefing when we got there was "don't talk to the trainees". One of the DSs I talked to told me that now they get to keep their cell phones, weekend passes every weekend, they can smoke and chew now, in BCT. The only time they really feel any hardship is the first two weeks, if then. Our billets were right next to a shopette used by all the AIT soldiers, and we'd constantly see them walking around jacked up, I saw one kid walking around with his winter PT jacket unzipped, one pant leg rolled up to his knees, like he was back on the block, it was an excercise in self restraint if ever ther was one.

The Spartans are gone. So are open bay barracks and physical counseling in the latrine. The task at hand is to get the job done with what you have.

Even with all the changes indicated in the postings, I can not believe that a drill sergeant would be dumb enough to harass a trainee on a firing range during qualifications....... I also don't believe there were stress cards or stress circles.

Jim

Guys:

What ever else Mtngoat may say on this list, :cool: I will personally attest to the fact that he teaches his kids to be respectful.

Gene

What is Mangudai?
 

My 2 cents - go w/a stress test for all enlisted and OBC personnel - model it after GEN Granges' Mangudai.

"He had a selection process that he put potential leaders of his force through," Grange said in early December, 24 hours into the most recent Mangudai exercise. The Mangudai commander would take his troops out into the wilderness for several days, deprive them of food and sleep, and then present them with physical and mental challenges to wear down their bodies and their brains.

"It had to do with inducing stress, and then watching how those possible leaders adapted to those conditions," Grange said, seated in his Spartan quarters in this Belgian military camp where the latest Mangudai session took place.

By Sean D. Naylor

Link to article: http://www.geocities.com/air_mech_strike/training.htm

Did you know some of these new recruits don't even have to PASS the APFT before they graduate and arrive at their unit???:confused:

Absolutely unacceptable! Why have a standard if you don't enforce it?

Since it was already brought up I thought I would weigh in on the relative efficiency of Marine Corps recruit training. I went through in 1994, and I was 27 years old. I am now considering joining the 20th NG SFG and this is how I found this board. I have not posted before. USMC boot camp has not changed much since I went through save the addition of "the crucible" at the end of the 13-14 week cycle. This is a team problem solving event, about 50 hours long, one meal per day and very little sleep. It marks the transition for recruit to Marine and during this short time the relationship between the drill instructor and recruit changes demonstrably. The DI is now a teacher and mentor, and the recruit is now a developing professional warrior. Boot is harder and longer now than when I went through but the Corps has fewer isssues meeting recruiting goals and a lower attrition rate. The reason for this is simple and obvious to anyone who was a Marine. Only the best Marines are offered a tour in recruiting. Only the best are given a spot in DI school. DI school is very demanding and the washout rate is very high. So here is where it becomes obvious. From the first experience with a recruiter, a motivated young man thinks - I want to be just like this guy. Not "I want to work with computers, or get money for tuition". This guy is hard, and tough and I want to be him. Then you get to boot camp, and you get off the bus and stand on some gold colored footprints in formation and the most physically imposing and completely squared away person you have ever seen is screaming at you from a distance of two inches away. He tells you that men who stood in those same painted footprints before you have died in battle serving their country. He explains that you may be asked to do the same. From the first moment 99% of the recruits on the bus want to be that Marine and will do anything asked of them to acheive that. They wake up daily to the bellowing of DIs who are already squared away and perfect. The recruits take a beating mentally and physically from reveille to taps. They develop the ability to process stress, and then more is given to them because they are being trained for combat. No interaction is allowed between male and female recruits. During two weeks of basic marksmanship training no DIs are allowed on the firing line of the known distance course. Honestly, the stress level has been so high for a month at this point that it is feared a recruit may shoot a DI in retaliation. Recruits are taught to shoot by Primary Marksmanship Instructors and watched over on the line by coaches, one per pair of recruits. There is no doubt in the mind of any recruit that any DI could punch holes in the ten ring at 500 meters at any time. I could go on and on, but my point is this - when a young man survives Parris Island it is only because he gave much more than he thought he could. Does not matter if he was rich, or spoiled, or raised by a crack addict mother. He wants it bad, he wants to be that Marine that is screaming at him every day because that DI is extracting a level of performance from him that he did not know existed. He learns to live by a warrior code, that the phrases "lead by example" and "always faithful" mean something within his new brotherhood. "Every Marine is a rifleman" is not a stretch. Yes, an admin guy might need a quick refresher on how to strip and clean the bolt carrier group, but you can stick him in the field and know what he knows because you came from the same horrible place. If the training on the Island was not this tough you could not possibly have that same confidence in the guy who is supposed to be watching your six. Bottom line, you want to wear my uniform, you better be willing to suffer for it or you have dishonored those who have died wearing it. I better know you were not given a free pass or an easy time earning it. I must have in you that "special trust and confidence" when things go bad. I don't care what was in your blood the day you got off the bus so long as you bleed green now. I think making boot easier and shorter to attract more recruits, and reducing stress while in training is not combat effective, and does not produce the esprit de corps necessary to develop a culture of excellence. You fail mentally long before you will fail physically. The objective should be to develop a culture that does not allow the individual to fail mentally because he is truly motivated to become the soldier who is training him.

Frogman_Jake, thanks for joining. Please go to the "Welcome" forum and introduce yourself to everyone in the "Introductions-Your first post goes here" thread. Also, please read all the "sticky" posts at the top of each of the forums to give you a better feel for how we run this website, and to familiarize yourself with our rules.

Roger that. Thanks for the direction.

Bayonet14:

This sounds a-lot like an average ARTEP from the late 1970's. Three or four days without sleep or much food, going from one mission to the next. Very similar to the old SF ARTEPs as well.

Gene

It's also similar to the Tzahal's Gibush for the Sayeret units.

RS:

Well, if you had stayed with 2 CR through the unit it is today (4/2 SBCT), guess where you would have been two months ago? He, he, he. Mangadi in Alaska for a couple of days.

The way I look it is this. If you want someone to walk until he hallucinates due to fatigue and lack of food or rest, put him through an ARTEP of thirty years ago or send him to Ranger School of thirty years ago. Neither proved a damn thing about a man or leader. The conventional ARTEPS of that era ended in a Nuke simulator -- thus showing the end of the world. The SF ARTEPs of that era normally ended with the Team having to walk another ten or twenty miles for exfil when the Air Guard refused to launch the exfil mission.

Is it a good thing? I like Grange immenselfy so won't criticize his intent. I also know how the rest of the Army will view his intent -- then bastardize it until they kill ten or fifteen guys because they didn't know the difference between a smoking and a leadership exercise.

It will happen now that it appears to be another bullet on an OER.

Gene

I thank whomever the personnel "managler" was that removed "Tact" from the OER. That was always a "no go at this station" for me :D

Basic
 

It was 1995 when a private who was working as a pit puppy in SOTIC showed me his stress card from Basic. If it was a fake he did an excellent job. The other privates working the detail verified it. I swear I am not joking.

Bayonet14-
You should have read your history - the Mongudai were origibnally led by a Mongol named Yasutai - they were the famed wolf warriors so effectively used by Ghengis Khan. And they would starve themselves for seven days before battle in order to be as hungy as the wolves they emulated - only the best were initiated into this elite force.

I would beg to differ with these statements, having just returned from BCT at Ft. Jackson 24 hours ago. There are no cell phones, passes of any kind, tobacco products or caffeine. Smoking by the DS's is alive and well, and I can personally vouch for that after being in a platoon that was kept in Red Phase for six weeks straight. Average sleep is about 4.5 hours per night, not the 7 widely advertised.

Is the the stress level at BCT still high? Yes. Recruits still experience the cumulative effects of sleep loss, constant exertion, and DS-enforced discipline and attention to detail, as they rightly should. Not everyone makes it - we had 3 AWOLs in my platoon and my battle buddy is being chaptered out of the Army after suffering from a complete breakdown in week 8. Everyone still has to pass the APFT - I had to complete my final run on a broken foot so that I could graduate. However, there was no intimidation on the firing line in my Company, and BRM was probably the most professionally-run part of the training that I experienced. It was impressive to see the gains that brand new shooters made in only ten days, and we received some very good follow-on training during the MOUT, team and reflexive fire ranges from our Combat Arms DS's.

Next stop: BAC and OCS at Ft. Benning, GA. :lifter

You say that BRM was the "most professional", by that I can surmise that you equate Professional with not being yelled at. Most folks that I have run across seem to do the same. My question is it any less professional to "dig off in some one's ass" when warranted ie., basic training with a bunch of slack ass civilians who have never been ask to do something to standard, or say if your 'jundies' are shitting every damn where? The true measure of the Professional, IMHO, is not weather he yells alot, but what he is saying while he is yelling, and if he knows when it will work to solve the issue, or just make things worse. Just my .02, have a good un'

Bubba, I used "professional" to note their effectiveness at reaching the desired end result - a platoon of qualified shooters. The Army was very, very systematic at teaching BRM, starting with dry fire drills in the bays and continuing all the way through grouping, zeroing, pre-qual and qualification, in addition to three very beneficial days spent in the EST 2000 simulator. The approach to most other events was not as comprehensive or organized, and thus my comment.

BTW, my Drill Sergeants would never use a curse word or shout, and if they had done so, I certainly wouldn't be posting about it on the Internet! :D

There has to be a standards disconnect somewhere. I know several Soldiers that graduated from BCT in late 2005 who related incidents of peers not passing an APFT, but graduating anyways.

I personally witnessed recent graduates of a Ft. Leonard Wood BCT fail an APFT conducted at BAC. Also, the majority of these PVTs were lacking in proper respect to NCOs, failing to come to parade rest, ignoring orders, etc. Many of the same PVTs from FLW that were able to pass the APFT went on to fail the longer runs conducted in Tower week. Perhaps this is just an isolated problem with a single training Bn. at FLW or maybe its more widespread than we know.

The only squared away PVTs I encountered during my time at BAC were Sand Hill graduates heading to RIP. I can relate more examples of recent BCT graduates miserably failing to qualify on paper targets, I'm talking 8 hits out of 40 and they graduated from Sand Hill. Another PVT who recently arrived in my Bn. clearly did not meet Height/Weight standards. The fact of the matter is I know there are many PVTs out there that are being allowed to leave BCT without meeting basic Army standards.

Somewhere in TRADOC there's a lack of standards enforcement between the various units conducting BCT. I have a couple new PVTs coming to my PLT next month who've just completed BCT, I'll let you all know what they have to say about their experience.

Stress, Bannon said, "is permanent but it's also dynamic. From the time you were born, your central nervous system started experiencing stressors.....the stress is stored in your body."

Morning Gentlemen, first post on site after intro.

late 20's...heading off to BCT for 18x contract soon. Aiming for 18D.

Finding thread very interesting and am wanting to ask a question.

Having been brought up by an Infantry Officer, I have always been thankful for the oldman being such a hard arse when I was a kid. Didn't appreciate it then of course :boohoo . (lol)

The 'training' the old man has given me has generated a kind of love for stress that makes me often push way beyond my physical boundries. Have burnt right out a couple of times, but always keen to go back for more.

QUESTION: I have always had it in the back of my head that the amount of 'massive' pressure situations one puts oneself through over the years may have a longterm detremental effect.

Is this Shrink saying that every bit of stress we go thru is stored and that we only have so much room to store it before we overload?

I've always had it in the back of my head that this sought of thing existed...and am honestly concerned that I may have used alot of my room up already.....I push myself harder than most civilians I know....apart from the old man that is(lol)....he's a machine, even at 62:cool:

I guess what I'm saying is I'd hate to think that I have some sort of Phsyc weakess, that will ultimately make me less usful to SF just becuase I've busted my arse and put myself under high levels of stress these past 10 years?

Yes, you store up stress, but you can also process it?

Thougts?