Are SF Soldiers Biologically Different?
 

Molecular Secret of Special Forces toughness
11:06 18 February 2003
NewScientist.com news service
Shaoni Bhattacharya, Denver

Special Forces soldiers have neurological differences that make them more resilient to post-traumatic stress disorder than the average soldier, say researchers.

A study of soldiers based at Fort Bragg, North Carolina, found that Green Berets were much less likely to suffer symptoms of PTSD after a week of gruelling exercises that simulated being captured and interrogated by the enemy.

The elite soldiers produced more of a molecule called neuropeptide Y in their blood than regular soldiers. This molecule is generated by the body to help calm the brain in times of extreme stress, says Matt Friedmann, director of the US National Center for PTSD in Connecticut, which carried out the research.

"The Special Forces types had a greater capacity for mobilising neuropeptide Y than ordinary soldiers, and they were also able to sustain it for longer periods," he told a session on PTSD at the American Association for the Advancement of Science's annual conference in Denver, Colorado. Furthermore, neuropeptide Y in Special Forces personnel returned to normal levels within 24 hours, whereas it dipped below normal in the others.

Bottle it
The greater the capacity to mobilise neuropeptide Y, the lower the likelihood of PTSD, says Friedmann. "If we could bottle this, or if we could train people to mobilise their own neuropeptide Y, that would be primary prevention for PTSD - a very exciting approach," he says.

Although the work has been going on for several years, the researchers are still uncertain whether the Green Berets' enhanced capacity to endure trauma was genetic or had been acquired through Special Forces training.

Another study discussed in the conference session revealed the extent of PTSD in the general population, following the terrorist attacks of September 11. The new work by researchers from the New York Academy of Medicine shows that 7.5 per cent of New Yorkers had PTSD symptoms in the 30 days after the attack, but that this dropped to 0.6 per cent nine months after.

The study also showed those people who lost a family member or friend were just as likely as those who did not to recover from PTSD. The researchers found that age, employment status and life stressors were more important factors in determining recovery.

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn3402

Perhaps, perhaps not...
 

The study compared SF Soldiers against other soldiers in SERE, including Rangers, aviators, etc.

The question is, were the SF guys some how conditioned to better handle the stress through training or were they biologically superior, as the article suggests.

Perhaps the "stress inoculation" we used throughout our training (crawl, walk, run methodology) better prepared them for what to expect and/or how to handle stress - just as a runner can condition himself to handle longer distances at a faster pace and recover from them quicker.

Somehow, I suspect it's a combination of the two...conditioning (training) and biology. Biologically, as we are drawn to this type of environment/work. Someone naturally adverse to risk (a librarian?) would take much longer to build up to that level, just as a couch potato would take much longer to get into shape.

I was just about to post the same question, but you beat me to it.

Man, I hate it..
 

Man, I hate it when they start messing with our heads and claim it's just a chemical.

Next thing ya' know all the herb stores will have bottles of "Green Beret" pills.

And "NO" you young guys, they will "NOT" help you get through SFAS.

Pete

LMAO! :D

That's hilarous!

But I guess if you break it down to the most basic element those AAA personalities might just have a slightly different chemical makeup than other folks. But I think there is a lot of heart and soul that can't be "analyzed" to define the make a QP!

I thought that's what the Green M&Ms were for...wait no, that was something else! :D

You guys are like the Jedi.

We were the ones that sent an MTT (Mobile Training Team) to teach the Jedi. That was centuries ago. (I think QRQ30 was on that mission......)

TS

Ouch! :D

:D :D The answer is in the anatomy not the biology -- bigger balls and morebrains!!:lifter

.

Dammit!!!! Some 6, 8 or so months ago, I posted a similar article, maybe the same study. There were replies from Med folks and all, that said the brainwave stuff, chemicals, electricity was BS.
OK
There was another reason I posted that article. I didn't follow up on it, cause I hate to type. The reason wasn't about brainwave nuero stuff. It was about mindset!

Great!, I now I have to go search some more.

I dont believe the instructors at JSOMT-C (now Special Warfare Medical Goup (A)) got that memo... :D

Crip

They need to do a study on our "sense of humor!"

That screws up a bunch of people...LOL:D

Take care.

Will that be the little blue M&M? opps, no that was something else too! ;)

Doc

This is really nothing new, as there is another book titled "Men, Stress and Viet Nam" that came to a similar conclusion. It is a small book and follows a one year study where they went from location to location taking blood and urine samples. They had just created a repeatable, confimed, matix of how the human body reacts to stress. They then made the mistake fo going to an A Camp for a study and then had to change all of their "confirmed data". Seems that the guys on the camp reacted a tad differently.

I will have to dig into my old library adn see fi I can find that book. Very interesting read and it is a quick read. I am sure some of the other guys will have read it.

I'm not sure if I fully buy the 'biologically different' argument. It kind of brings up the whole controlled breeding thing in my mind, or the Dorsai argument. I think there is a difference in mentality more than anything else, a lot of the muscleheads didn't make it through prephase, or phase 1 (old system), because they were weak in character, mind, and focus; while skinny little runts with heart, and a desire to prove to themselves that they could accomplish what the average soldier would never even dream, overcame the obstacles and earned the beret / flash / tab.

Is it biology or is it heart / mind / character - I'll go with the latter 3, how many would agree?

Can you say with certainty that biology isn't responsible for the differences in the latter 3? :)

Is character biological or learned? I believe it is learned.
Intelligence is part both.
Desire to prove to oneself, is inherent in a person, whether it is truly biological, I plead ignorance (remember ignorance impies choice, I have not looked into it, and therefore have not chosen to know)

So is the ability to run better than others, ie top world class sprinter, biological or learned. I say biological and, yes, the individual is superior in running to me. I do not see it as a slam, put down of politically incorrect observation. I see it as fact.

The same can be said of the ability to control certain dody functions that allow a higher mental survival rate than others. Are they superior to the others? Yes in that area, but they are still inferior to those tht can sprint faster.

This BS phobia of declaring something superior because it may hurt someone's feelings is poppy cock. Each indiividual has superior and inferior abilites and traits, it really is what makes the world go round.

If this has upset some folk then good, it needs to be brought out to the light that humans are diverse and some can do some things bettter than others and much of has to do with genes, not race, not religion, just plain old building block genes. :munchin

Longrange-
I was not arguing that SF Soldiers are not better than the average joe -we most certainly are - I was arguing the point that it can be dissected in one way - there are myriad biological, mental, social, emotional, and character differences between us and most people. But how is this difference to be measured except by those who have been there, and understand what is being asked of the candidates? We know the difference, a test does not. some of the best scoring candidates, test wise, still bolo, nothing against them, they are outstanding soldiers - just not SF. Remember that the last things in the Q are evals (or at least they were) you aren't a grad unless the instructors and your peers agree you are.

It's the hat.

For what I have seen over the years it is not so much of being better than the average joe but being better suited for SF. SF requires a commitment and you can only get a commitment to any organization when those qualities, aspects, performance standards, and goals that make up the organization mesh completely with the qualities, aspects, performance standards and goals of the individual. Unquestionably there is a biological component that enables performance standards to be met but there are also physchological and learned components. Whatever it is folks have been trying to bottle it since the inception of the program and we have yet to discover the "secret formula". There is no SF template. This business is, after all, nothing like making corn flakes but all about producing the best soldiers with whom I have ever had the priviledge to work.

Jack Moroney-biologically hampered, psychologically flawed and learning impaired I served in the shadows cast by many in whom I will forever be in awe.

COL M-
Not that I believe:
Jack Moroney-biologically hampered, psychologically flawed and learning impaired
at all.

But AMEN to:
I served in the shadows cast by many in whom I will forever be in awe.

MSG Gary Gordon is one of them. (he was an E6p - E7 when I served with him)

Being as PC impaired as I am. In more than one way. :D I found it!! NO, not that. Here..........

http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/...ead.php?t=6291

Back then. I brought this up, more for another reason. I have NO clue about nueropeptide Y things.

Some of the posts then and now, touch on along the lines of what I had in mind.

Forget the nuerological, brain wave crap.

What about, the mind, heart, soul, the drive, desire, motivation.....? Can keep typing adjectives. Put it simple. The mind set!

The mind controls the body and drives it where one never thought possible. In some of the responses to this thread and to that older one, you can see some of that. The Colonel, above this post hit on it, so did Longrange.

Start when you were a kid. Did you take chances? Could you sit still for long? Did dumbasses piss you off, even if you were only 4 and up?

What stupid things did you do as a kid? Things, that you should have not even gotten to the age of graduating Grade school, let alone HS. Things that make you dead.

Also. even as a youngster and you were 'pushing the envelope'. Did you feel then, that you had thought it through, to the best of your know nothing/experience mind? To you? No matter what age, from there on up? Did you feel it as a 'calculated risk' to the best experience and knowledge you had, at whatever age?

LOL..... so did NDD. To an extent. So did Guy. I'm still misunderstood and tired of fighting. Try to be nice and somehow, someone takes it wrong. I dunno. ;)

Ahh yes the 4 cinder block bike ramps as a second grader... numerous scars, bumps, and bruises. A sort of PRE-selection as it were.

All of my fellow second graders... never made it past three cinder blocks high. Heck maybe it was the hair!

LOL Longtab. Yeah. That kind of stuff. Biological/mental/feeling the rush of adrenalin. I did that stuff allllllllll the time as a kid and growing up. Of course, I had nooooooooo idea what an adrenalin rush was, nor what adrenalin was. I just felt and liked it.

Across the street from the house was a Forest Preserve. In the winters, we would all head over there, when it seemed like the water had frozen over. Also called the Lagoons. This was a project that was dug by hand to put men to work during the depression. Anyway, there was an island out there, that we could never get to. Then and now, you do not swim in that water. Sometimes the ice wasn't all that solid. I NEEDED to get to that island! There was an old comic strip in the newspaper back then called ' Jim Trails' I believe. I learned from one of those, if you lay down on ice covered water, your weight is distributed. I was the only kid that tried. Made it by the way. Still hear the crackling sounds of the ice in my head. :)

That kinda crap, I continued to do growing up and into SF, during SF and to some extent now. HM..... calculated risk.......

AHHHH, the idiocy of youth - as preparation for SF - never really thought about it, but yes - the bike jumps, the dirt bomb fights, running around the wetlands preserve (swamp), woods, and swimming in the winter if the air temp hit 65, climbing sand cliffs, climbing trees - building field expedient rafts from flotsam... backpacking the Appalachian trail at 12, sialing as often as possible, and being on a war canoe team

Yeah, x_sf_med. Isn't that the truth? I figured by all rights, I should have been dead, before I got to SF. Hmmmmmm, just calculated risks. :D

12B
I probably should have been dead by 12 - but the universe had other plans - Bob Howard, Nick Rowe, and Bo(sr & jr) Gritz made me want to die when going through the "coarse" (intentional sp. error) - in order to attone for my errors as a child.... and teenager... and college student.... oh, hell I'm doomed.

One thing I used to use when expalining SF to outsiders. IT'S THE MIND!

I always told them physically I didn't find the training that challenging (I grew up in Alaska. Sheep hunting, moose hunting, fighting forest fires.)

But I tell people that SF wanted a "near criminal" mind that could be controlled and that the body be in good enough shape to deliver the mind to the target!

After playing the "Ultimate Chess Game" for a while with the NVA counter recon folks, I can still say "IT IS THE MIND" but being able to carry 120 lbs of gear helped too...

That's 120lbs of light weight gear:D

High speed lightweight low drag gear - all in the TOE, some of it never used, unless you leave it out of the ruck.... murphy strikes again ... never thought I'd need that [insert common item left out of ruck] in the [insert season]

Ya mean like your parka on a seven to ten day trek on XC skis across some countrie's Alps? ;) Who needs a parka. All you have to do... is volunteer to break trail.

Besides, One needs room in his ruck for beer and wine. We loved hot Gluhwein out there. The spice packs and cinnamon didn't way all that much. Alllllll those bottles did though. The silver lining was...... everyday, the ruck was a bit lighter. :D

Agreed!!! That is always what I have told people and several times out here in the various threads. I always figured, it was what got me through.

Think back, to just Phase 1. For some of us that is a long way back. ;) I remember guys dropping out. Could have been the runs, could have been anything. Land nav. What I remember most was on the obstacle course.

I went through toward the end of the summer in 1969. It was hot, humid, miserable. The cadre told us as we prepared to run the course, that we would be the first class through the COMPLETED course. I guess, the class before us ran it, but it wasn't completed at the time. OH joy!!!!!!

We were all assigned a number. Thing was, the instructors would open one of the flaps on our fatigue shirts and write the number inside the flap with something like yellow magic marker and button it. As this was being done. One instructor was explaining, with a combination... serious,evil, I'm gonna enjoy this shit look and grin. ;) Basically. The reason for writing that number under the pocket flaps as he explained, was this. If and or when you get through this obstacle course, you won't even remember your name, let alone a number. :eek: Looking around, one could easily spot the three to four meat wagons waiting for customers. Sort of gave you the impression, this isn't going to be good at all. Ugh...

We were already soaked with sweat. It was around 90 degrees and about the same humidity. then, off we went.

On that first run through the course, I saw guys quit. Saw guys to afraid to negotiate some of the obstacles. The 'Tables' sucked. ;) Saw guys pass out. helped a few guys that just seem to give up, somewhere up on some obstacle. Thing I'm getting at is this.

A good majority of the guys that quit, passed out or froze on some obstacle, looked like they were born in Gold's Gym and have been working out since thier umbillical cord was cut. I was 6`4, weighed around 175 lbs. But helping mesomorphs with chisled muscles.

It was the MIND. They could out bench press me to no end. All I could do was walk, hump a ruck, run, do pushups, situps, whatever til the cows came home. But only cause of the mind. I'm not able to define it beyond that.

BTW. The obstacle course as we were told that day.

Get back to this. Some interruptions. Plus I still have to edit this post.

From what we were told back then.
Mentioned being the first class through the completed course.
We were also told, how the obstacle course came to be. For SF training, they wanted the best/toughest. In short. That course came to be, because the powers to be, spent a few years touring and examining other Military obstacle courses around the globe. They chewed it all over and came up with Nasty Nick.

Which by the way wasn't what it was called when I went through. I don't believe it had an official name back then. It DID have a slew of unofficial names that we gave it while running it and after. ;) Even if I could remember all of them, I wouldn't be able to type them here.

Another couple recollections. The meat wagons were busy. Quite a few guys in them and next to them on stretchers, getting saline injections and whatever. When those guys came to, whether there or in the ambulance on the way to the hospital. Thing is......... when they regained conciousness, and asked....... well, they were told that they were terminated. Don't know if that term is used today in that situation. Was then.

One more memory.
Those of us that got through that day. This was just the first time. And could remember our name and some of us even our number. :cool: The victory and elation was short lived. After 20 or so minutes of rest, water and salt tabs, The instructors decided that there wasn't enough attrition. Nooooope Just 15 or so. Isn't life grand? We got to run the course AGAIN!!!!!!!!!

Seems they were fairly satisfied after the second run. They about doubled the casualities from the first.

One or two classes before mine, someone had fallen off one of the high obstacles and hit his head, so we had the pleasure of running the course in bright yellow Hi-Tec helmets. Of course, as there was a smaller number of helmets than students (by about a third), the real pleasure was in taking a sweaty, mud-soaked helmet from a recent finisher and sticking it on your head a few minutes before getting to the start line.

Ahh, yes, the obstacle course - I remember a gym rat who completely froze up at the sewer, quit on the spot was afraid of the dark, and afraid of rats.....

I've wondered if that section of sewer pipe was still part of the course. As I remember, it was existing from back when Mackall was active. Just conveniently was incorporated into the obstacle course. I remember the first time through, I wanted to go through it. It was nasty hot and humid, figured it would be great to be in some shade. ;) Yeah, it was shady, but the air was nasty foul and hot. The guy or guys in front of me, just weren't going fast enough. Once in there, I changed my mind and thought it was better to breath the topside thick air. :)

After seeing Razor's post, I realized at least we didn't have to wear those helmets.......