I agree with your introductory premise.

Unfortunately, the POTUS and SecDef tried to do it on the cheap, and failed to prepare the American public for the long war, address the post-war reconstruction period, or place the right people and forces in country to get the COIN and transition done quickly. Like it or not, we are drawing people to Iraq who hate us, want to do us harm, and need to be killed. If you want to see an American city looking like Fallujah, then by all means, pull back and let them come here.

The last time the NKs and Iranians cooperated was right after we went through the Iraqi forces like crap through a goose. They were very accomodating then. The NKs are not just sponsoring terrorism, but they are also attempting to undermine the US economy by counterfeiting, as well as distributing WMD and delivery system knowledge and material in a blatant proliferation campaign.

We need to show them the stick again, especially in the middle of a hard Korean winter.

TR

Steel on target!

A lesson not-so-well learned from Desert Storm. It took us four times longer to redeploy than it did to deploy.

As to Libya.

A few years ago I had a conversation with a couple of Irishmen, who happened to be IRA sympathizers. They both stated that after we dusted off Khadafi's tent, he started funneling more money to the IRA. His monies may not have matched what was contributed by individuals in the US, but it was significant!

Well shoot, what's another year, right? What's another two? What's another decade? The leadership techniques I was taught said that every time you ignore someone doing the wrong thing, you give tacit approval to everybody else to do the same. We may not have engaged immediately, but the circus-like UN negotiations and on again/off again weapon inspection permissions were overtly flaunting the rules set in place not by just the US, but also the "world community". I don't know if you have children, but when my kids decide to not only ignore my rules, but also make a show of it, they quickly learn the error of their ways.

Maybe, but then again maybe not. I guess I'm a little more forgiving of the leadership as I'm not accustomed to having perfect information (intelligence) before making my decisions. Surely, there could have been a better post-invasion plan, but as you said, we had political capital, and sometimes timing is everything. A good plan executed today is far better than a perfect plan executed after the fact.

Again, I don't think 12 years falls into the impulsive category, or even 2 years for that matter. Also, as I mentioned above, you plan as well as you can and then act on what you have, even if its not perfect. Do you really believe that plans to invade Iraq were built from scratch in 2002? It would have been nice for some COIN-savvy folks to have had more input into the OPPLAN, but the reality is that COIN wasn't a priority to planners until it was staring them in the face. Welcome to the wonderful world of conventional military strategic planning. We could have refined the existing plan for another 10 years and you wouldn't have had any more post-invasion COIN content in it than it had from the get go.

Perhaps its because on this board there are a few folks that understand the difference between planning and execution, and that taking more time in the former does not always guarantee flawless execution in the latter. Hell, you see that in any professional sport; regardless of time and money spent planning and practicing, in the end someone goes home the loser.

Maybe you're privvy to better information than I, but it seems to me that "The Plan" has been modified (to varying degrees) several times over the last 5 years.

Political capital and goodwill based on ignoring issues that benefit the illegal acts of others (the corrupted oil for food program, Germany and France selling chem and bio technology to Iraq, etc.) has no true value, and is totally dependent on your continued complicity. I'll pass on that, thanks.

When? Today? Next Month? This summer?

Problem I see with your synopsis is you want everything now. Show of force now.

We're already strong now. China and the Islamist's show patience.

When are you going to show patience??

.

JMI,

Ever hear of the Safwan Cease-fire?

The UN didn't sign it. General Schwarzkopf did. Two Iraqi Generals did. A number of other Generals did. None of them wore a blue helmet.

How about HR 4655? Passed and signed into Public Law 105-338 in 1998.

Does the President of the United States have a responsibility to enforce the laws of the United States?

Yes, and it should damn well take more than planes flying into our buildings to enforce those laws.

9/11 all of a sudden made those laws more enforceable?

(*here is where most insert the "Clinton is to fault" rule*)

JMI, perhaps what it would take for you is a plane flying into one of your high-rise buildings in Las Vegas, with you in it. That would certainly give you a much different perspective.

Again, you offer criticism without offering an alternative.


Here, you claimed to have knowledge of an alternative.
Do tell.

I'm still listening.:munchin

Hiller...I mean JMI, let me guess--you also have a great plan to provide health care insurance to everyone in the country, you just don't want to discuss it in detail, right?

The sad thing is that this thread has gotten a whole lot more interesting since Thompson left the race!

(I liked him but think he may need to consider a Provigil Rx)

Thanks Broadsword. Great recap. Unfortunately, most of the people in this country are focused on something else, like the latest sit-com, reality TV show, or the mall. Many who do talk politics regurgitate the crap spewing forward from the left wing press.

Now it's off to the gun show to do some serious trading. I'll be the one behind the table wearing a red "Support the Troops" sweatshirt.

After some research, I have to agree with JMI on some points.

So, here it is:
/rant on
THE PRESIDENT IS AN IDIOT.
HIS LEADERSHIP IS PATHETIC.
THERE WERE NO WMD'S, THE PRESIDENT DECEIVED THE PUBLIC.
THE PRESIDENT IS A WALKING EXAMPLE OF SOMEONE WITH NO IMPULSE CONTROL.
IMPEACHMENT WOULD ABSOLUTELY BE JUSTIFIED.
/rant off

Here is evidence to support my criticism of the President:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2iOVqYBqME

We wanted to? Then when things get ruff we all of sudden decided we didn't want to? You sound just like all the politicians who voted against the War after they voted for the War.
Call it what you want. At least we have an Administration willing to take action. If the Iraq War showed the Enemy anything. It showed we have the Guts to meet them head on instead of just throwing a few Cruise Missiles in their direction.
The overwhelming number of Enemy dead in Iraq came there from other countries. Whats your plan on how to kill them? Getting them to show up at the Woodstock of the Jihad so they can die seems to be working so far. The age and experience of the average Insurgent seems to be decreasing.
How many terrorist attacks against US Citizens here and abroad have taken place since 911. How many country's think twice before letting Terrorist operate freely inside their Borders?
A LOT LESS THEN BEFORE!

Glad that I watched the video before commenting.

TR

I've been wanting to ask this of you guys for awhile.

Don't you think we would have had all the Islamic fundamentalists drawn to Afghanistan once we ousted the Taliban there? Much the same as when the Soviets occupied that country? I am not military and don't claim to be, but would like your opinions as I agree that something needed done after 9/11. Everything I've looked at both before the Iraq war and since then has only shown one piece of possible evidence linking Iraq to Al-queda (medical aid for a terrorist from AQ).

I just think that anyone with a beef with the US would have readily went to Afghanistan as they would to Iraq. I think we had every right to go to Afghanistan to track down our attackers, but now we've seen the highest opium production on record and the Taliban is making somewhat of a comeback. We had world support with Afghanistan but pretty much stirred up a hornets nest with Iraq. Not trying to argue Iraq too much, just think Afghanistan would have accomplished similar things.

I just feel we could have done everything in Afghanistan that supporters of the Iraq war use to justify that war (except oust Saddam).

On a side note, with the Axis of Evil speech, we seemed a bit hypocritical since we know North Korea has nukes but we aren't about to attack them directly with them being so close to Russia and China.

I don't have a time machine, I doubt the government has one in hiding somewhere.

Hindsight is 20/20.

What would you suggest we do now.
:munchin

In recently released press, the chief interrogator of Saddam Hussein stated the Hussein “acted” as if possessed WMD’s for two reason’s; The first, To dissuade Iran from invading , and two, to keep the image of being strong. When view in that light, I have to give the current administration a plausible pass.
I also believe, that regardless of the deception, it was necessary to place our forces in Iraq to counterbalance Russia in its continuing drive to assert itself as a rejuvenated world player. Russia is now stronger that it has ever been. In December they turned the gas off to the EU for 18 hrs and they went crazy. They delivered missile to Iran, we could do nothing, and they have just completed a deal to build a pipeline across Serbia countering the EU southern route. Russia will control the energy to the EU. Russia has won this round and Putin deserves the title of Man of the year.
Iraq was not about WMD in hindsight, it was, and is about the future of oil and access to it. Bush was right to go in.

They also provided new anti-tank guided rockets to Iraqi forces during the invasion...

Superbowl...

If they had just run a 3 minute commercial hosted by Carman Electra in skimpy clothing saying "We were justified in going to Iraq, We're winning the war on terrorism, Clinton is fascist" as fast as she could the whole country would be reciting a whole other story now. (As opposed to those of us who actually read instead of being glued to our tv sets)