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frostfire 05-01-2011 00:44

treadmill, treadmill, treadmill
 
Due to pollen invasion, I've been confined to running on treadmill. Itchy/watery eyes are not conducive to healing, and I'm sure the drivers/motorists/other runners won't appreciate my running half blind.

I've been noticing significant improvement. No fancy training, no fartlek, 30/60 etc. Just plain sprinting. Pick a pace that's borderline uncomfortable, then hold that pace as long as possible. Just 0.1 mile more or just one more minute: Trick the mind by dividing large goal into smaller, more managable pieces ie. "if you have to eat a sh*t sandwich, eat one slice at a time." This may seem pathetic to some, but I finally got a 6:27 pace down. Keep in mind this is from someone who used to huff and puff only after 500 yards, and thought 7:00 as unfathomable. I also recall that I used treadmill to get the shuffle-run 13min pace for rucking down back in college. By shuffling, there isn't much pounding on both the knees and the treadmill. It easily transitioned to the Matta mile terrain, so it was good training.

Tons of critiques out there against treadmill: boring, monotonous, not representative of "real" running, and so on. Well, it's just another tool, and IMHOO just like marksmanship, it's the user, then the tool. Make it work. Like this lady for example:

"Women's winner Carrie Pustilnik, of Delray Beach, is a mother of three daughters who works two jobs. She does virtually all of her training on a treadmill in her garage, waking up at 4:30 every morning to put in 8 to 10 miles before getting her kids ready for school.

Pustilnik, 33, was happy to get her breakthrough win in Fort Lauderdale because she made her marathon debut in this race three years ago on a whim. She has since channeled the same tenacity into running that made her a star in tennis at Spanish River High and the University of Tennessee as Carrie Spinner.

Considering her daily schedule of training, working in the morning as a sales representative and in the afternoon as a fitness trainer for kids at The Gymm Zone, plus tending to three daughters ages 3 to 8, winning the marathon may have been the easiest part of her week.

Pustilnik said confining her marathon training to the treadmill is easier on her body than running on roads. It's effective, as her winning time of 2:58:29 was almost 11 minutes faster than runner-up Shelby Speno of Parkland.

"When I run a marathon, I'm like an animal let out of a cage," Pustilnik said. "This is a peaceful three hours for me. It's a pleasure."

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/201...marathon-debut

As mentioned once, I only used one kind of drug: Audio drug. Playlists like the following: youtube.com/watch?v=lOJqicM6x84 , youtube.com/watch?v=2kxJ7UjDqO4 , youtube.com/watch?v=BQMpRWuT6hk, youtube.com/watch?v=dWWPJo0vq_Q .....usw. Take your mind right off that small gym corner to your epic/colossal movie :D

Again, the critiques will say no one wears mp3 player during unit run, APFT, at SFAS etc. Well, borrowing from WM A. Robbins stuff in Get Selected and Master Gene Econ on mental conditioning: How do you achieve goals? By having assured confidence. How do you get assured confidence? By winning, and achieving goals. It has to start somewhere. When you surpass physical goal even with the aid of music, you know your body is capable of such feat. That serves as a mental anchor that you can pull from when it's starting to suck. "I can do this. I've done it before. Just another mile, just another minute...etc."

Masochist 05-01-2011 09:08

Just another tool in the toolbox
 
Not a fan of the treadmill either, but sometimes it's a necessary evil. Tough to run outside when it's single digits and you have a couple feet of snow on the roads. Saw a CPT do a figure 8 with his leg last year on a snowy ruck march, and have begrudgingly gone indoors since when Mother Nature doesn't want to cooperate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by frostfire (Post 389204)
As mentioned once, I only used one kind of drug: Audio drug. Playlists like the following: youtube.com/watch?v=lOJqicM6x84 , youtube.com/watch?v=2kxJ7UjDqO4 , youtube.com/watch?v=BQMpRWuT6hk, youtube.com/watch?v=dWWPJo0vq_Q .....usw. Take your mind right off that small gym corner to your epic/colossal movie :D

Again, the critiques will say no one wears mp3 player during unit run, APFT, at SFAS etc. Well, borrowing from WM A. Robbins stuff in Get Selected and Master Gene Econ on mental conditioning: How do you achieve goals? By having assured confidence. How do you get assured confidence? By winning, and achieving goals. It has to start somewhere. When you surpass physical goal even with the aid of music, you know your body is capable of such feat. That serves as a mental anchor that you can pull from when it's starting to suck. "I can do this. I've done it before. Just another mile, just another minute...etc."

As for music, I too use the audio drug sometimes during training. I've found it works well for those with trouble pacing themselves, and comes in handy when you finally have to take the headphones off and do an APFT or ruck. I would sing (to myself, of course) the songs whose beat I know would keep me on a certain pace. Just make sure to diversify what sticks in your head. Four hours straight of "SexyBack" can border on insanity. :eek:

Xamine 12-16-2011 23:17

I actually came across something new (To me at least) called "Horsemen Training Program", It looks pretty interesting so i might give it a try in the near future.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/55818603/H...ng-Program-i-1

Sarski 12-17-2011 08:16

After hitting a wall about 10 years ago, I started jogging again. Started jogging as a kid around 11 or 12 years old. Been doin it all my life. Even out at sea I would run 3 miles a day on the steel decks just to stay in shape. On land 8-10 miles a day, 5-6 days a week. Then around 30 years old I hit the wall.

I just stopped. There were a few times I'd be motivated and go out and do 1.5 miles, feel good and all ready to start again, but the next day would come around and nada.

Well, it's been two weeks now and I have jogged a couple days a week now, and feeling good about it. It has always been something that I missed, because I used to enjoy it so much.

I'm just taking it light an easy, a couple days a week now. I am enjoying it just fine, and it is the most consistent jogging I have done in 10 years.

Burn out, and hitting the wall are some real bummers. It's not the same runners high that I used to get, but it's a great feeling to be re-exploring something that I used to love doing so much.

Also, I have kept up a physically active lifestyle w/o the running, doing other activities and exercise. But for now at least, it seems that jogging is back on my plate.

Buffalobob 12-18-2011 14:59

Well being 63 YO and retired I concentrate on exercises that helps my two hobbies which are: hunting and then some more hunting. :D

I jog slowly about 3 miles of up hill and downhill some few days of the week and if my knees or the weather gets bad I will just hike around for an hour or so on other days. I do some upper body exercises so I can pull my 70# bow and hold it for three or four minutes. I have an old bow that I use for exercises some times but I find an old bicycle inner tube cut for a stretchy device to be a good substitute for it. It is also good exercises for IPSCA or IDPA.

DevilSide 12-19-2011 04:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buffalobob (Post 428325)
Well being 63 YO and retired I concentrate on exercises that helps my two hobbies which are: hunting and then some more hunting. :D

I jog slowly about 3 miles of up hill and downhill some few days of the week and if my knees or the weather gets bad I will just hike around for an hour or so on other days. I do some upper body exercises so I can pull my 70# bow and hold it for three or four minutes. I have an old bow that I use for exercises some times but I find an old bicycle inner tube cut for a stretchy device to be a good substitute for it. It is also good exercises for IPSCA or IDPA.

I must say that's very good, better than me actually, I would hate to run hills.

GratefulCitizen 04-19-2015 18:44

Posting this so that it may help others get ideas for their own training.

Decided to return to the gym, and also needed a program for my 14 year-old.
Considered the various training programs done in the past, their efficacy, and researched why/hows of various results before making a plan.

Goals/considerations/restrictions/principles/etc.:

-Simplicity
-Improves general health/ joint stability, etc.
-Low risk of injury
-Maximum results for training time invested (Pareto principle)
-Self-adjusting to changing fatigue levels, etc.
-Doesn't cause undue stress or fatigue which might interfere with work or other activities.
-Increases strength and speed (always finish strength goals before moving on to endurance)
-Validated by results in others

What I came up with is basically what I did while in the best shape of my life 14-15 years ago.
It's based on techniques and research used for athletes in the former Soviet Union (they measured/tracked EVERYTHING).

Workouts consist of 2 compound exercises designed to hit everything in the body.
I chose power snatches and flat bench.

Other combinations which would work might be: clean and press/weighted pull-up or deadlift/flat bench.
It's more difficult to combine something with a squat program, and would likely require 2 other exercises to avoid imbalances in the internal/external rotators of the shoulder.

The way I run mine they're really just 2 programs run in parallel, they are normally done on alternate days for a 6 day per week workout schedule.
Each exercise is done 3 times per week with a day rest before hitting the same exercise again.

Raw 1RM was determined/estimated (no belts, wraps, etc.)
Workouts should be done without belts, wraps, etc.

If you can't do it without aids, use a lighter weight.

"Core" workout weight intensity (% of RM) was chosen to maximize power output in the lift.
For these lifts, I chose 80% for the core workout weight intensity, it could vary by person and movement, but shouldn't be over 85% and generally isn't less than 70% except for maybe deadlifts.

The weight should be light enough that you can move it quickly, but heavy enough that you're not "throwing" it.
<edit> Technically, you are "throwing" the weight in power snatch /power clean, but these are fairly self-adjusting because of the large amplitudes.

Training cycle runs 6 weeks then a rest week is taken.
New 1RM is determined somewhere during rest week.

Cycle is repeated using new 1RM to determine workout weight intensity.
After 2-3 cycles, a two-week rest break is taken.

The same exercises can be used from cycle to cycle.
They can also be changed, particularly if plateaus are reached or if different effects are desired.

Core workout should have a workout "volume" of around "1000%".
Workout volume is determined by total workout reps x intensity, warmup doesn't count (In my case the core workout is 80% x 12 reps = 960%).

The number of reps done in a set is up to the individual, but sets should NOT be done to failure.
Decent form and good bar speed (going up) should be maintained every rep, reps in a set should be few enough to serve this purpose.

Rest between sets should be until you feel subjectively "ready".
You don't have to push it, but you can so long as performance doesn't significantly degrade.

I never do more than 6 reps in a set, and found that more than 2 isn't really necessary, except for saving time in the gym.
Generally have seen better results using fewer reps and more sets, especially with the core workout.

Every rep should be a 100% "effort", moving the bar/weight up as fast as possible (allowing for safety...).
Fred Hatfield calls this "compensetory acceleration".

18 workouts in the cycle.
The intensity (% 1RM) doesn't change for the first half of the cycle.

It looks complicated, but it isn't.
Just get out the pocket calculator.

Workout schedule:
1- Core (around 1000% volume)
2- Core x 1.5 volume
3- Core
4- Core x 2 volume
5- Core
6- Core x 2.5 volume
7- Core
8- Core x 3 volume
9- Core
10- Raise intensity to core + 5%, volume should be around 2100%.
11- Core
12- Raise intensity to core + 10%, volume should be around 1500%.
13- Core
14- Raise intensity to core + 15%, volume should be around 900%.
15- Core
16- Raise intensity to core + 20%, volume should be around 400%.
17- Core
18- Raise intensity to core + 25%, volume should be around 200%.

The core workouts start to become very easy towards the end of the cycle, and you might be tempted to do more or skip ahead in the schedule.
DON'T.

Just like with medications, there is a therapeutic dose.
The easy days are there by design.

I'm in my second cycle right now, and have found the program to be highly compatible with the variable and unpredictable workloads associated with my manual labor job.
My son is in his first cycle, and things are working well for him.

Strength levels went up by about 20% after the first cycle, and this cycle is looking to get similar gains.
Much of these rapid gains are just a function of "retaking old ground" and will soon diminish.

Haven't had much soreness, though I did notice some CNS fatigue symptoms while volume was peaking.
Joints are feeling better, except for the wrists, but they aren't any worse.

Body fat is slowly dropping, and there is visible general hypertrophy (though that isn't a goal).
Practical day-to-day strength is much higher, and there's a new "spring" in my step.

General energy levels/ fatigue resistance/ recovery/ mood are much better.
Healing a little more quickly from minor wounds, too.

Back when I did this (and a few other minor things) at age 29, I could bench 325lbs for 2 reps, standing broad jump almost 10 ft, run a sub-6 minute mile at high altitude, and crush some decently long road bike rides without any specific training.
Never trained push-ups, but tested it and got 93 reps, so training muscular endurance proved to be unnecessary.

The point of the program is to improve general strength and fitness while leaving enough in the gas tank to pursue other things or more specific training.
It worked for me.

YMMV.

GratefulCitizen 08-22-2015 15:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by GratefulCitizen (Post 580813)
Goals/considerations/restrictions/principles/etc.:

-Simplicity
-Improves general health/ joint stability, etc.
-Low risk of injury
-Maximum results for training time invested (Pareto principle)
-Self-adjusting to changing fatigue levels, etc.
-Doesn't cause undue stress or fatigue which might interfere with work or other activities.
-Increases strength and speed (always finish strength goals before moving on to endurance)
-Validated by results in others

Been at this program 7 months now.
Getting ready to start another cycle.

Status on goals:
-It has been simple to implement and sustain.
-Joints are all doing fantastic, general health is doing fine.
-No injuries.
-I'm satisfied with the results relative to training time.
-It has been very effective in terms of self-adjustment.
-Has been completely compatible with long work weeks and a manual labor job, fatigue and soreness haven't been excessive.
-Strength has steadily increased, haven't tested speed.
-Proving effective with my son as well.


Starting out, I hadn't done any serious weight training for more than a decade.

At the time: just shy of 43 years old, not quite 6'2" barefoot, weighed about 170 lbs.
-Would've been lucky to put up 190lbs for a single on flat bench then, and did 95 lbs for the core weight in high-catch power snatches.

At the end of this cycle: weigh about 175 lbs, body fat is a little lower now.
-Put up 280 lbs on flat bench (with room to spare) for 4 singles last week, barely missed 295 lbs.
-Used 135 lbs for the core weight on power snatches.

Recently, I haven't been trying to make the catch on the heavier power snatch workouts within a cycle (too hard on the rotator cuff muscles) and just did high pulls instead.
There's some technique/skill issues to address, but I'm still getting the bar 5 1/2 - 6' off the ground for the 150-160 lb pulls, probably enough for a high catch.
In terms of powerlifting, the deadlift is normally about 3x your high-catch power snatch.

Back strength and grip strength have come along well (I don't use the "hook grip" on power snatches, but may need to if the weight keeps climbing).
Hands-only rope climbs are easy, haven't tried pull-ups, but there's probably similar transfer.

Overall functional strength is doing well.
Helped a bar back change out a full keg (half-barrel) last month.
Could pick it up, put it on my shoulder, duck through doorways, and handle it like it was a toy.
Similar stunt was quite difficult 2 years ago.


My son is 15 years old, about 6' 3" barefoot, around 145lbs, hardly any body fat.
He has a 6' 6" wingspan, with most of it coming from arms rather than shoulder width or hand length.
He's been doing this about 6 months.
Starting out, he couldn't quite get 95 lbs on flat bench, and could just barely catch 65lbs on power snatch.
He put up 140 lbs on flat bench last week, and catches 100 lbs (way up there...) on power snatch with room to spare.
Subjectively, he's observed dramatically improved quickness/explosiveness on the basketball court as well as significant improvements in everyday functional strength.


Gonna keep on the program for a few more cycles, and see how much the progress continues.
Seems to be working.


Some things learned:
-Taking a long, hot shower just before working out (especially in winter) has made a HUGE difference in preventing soreness, particularly with joints/tendons.
-Erring on the side of picking lighter weights/shorter sets for/within a training cycle is better than picking heavier weights/longer sets.
-When doing 2 workouts the same day (different exercises) it's better to separate them into 2 sessions than doing them in one long workout session.
-Tend to get better progress when the workouts are kept under 45 minutes.
-Resist the urge to change the programmed lifts during a cycle. Just see it through to the end and adjust weight levels in the subsequent cycle (recycling the same weight if necessary).
-Don't worry about how you "feel", follow the programming.
-Don't do extra stuff in the gym, follow the programming.

GratefulCitizen 05-08-2016 14:26

My return to weight training has been going for a little over a year now.
Happy with results thus far.

My father got back into pretty good shape several times after age 40.
He said it takes about 2 years when you're older, and pushing too hard to get it back faster than that just results in injury or burnout.

Tried substituting heavy snatch-grip high pulls off the blocks (using straps) in place of power snatches last August/September.
Along with the heavy flat bench, it turned out to be too much.

Was hitting all my lifts that cycle through the first month.
Had a workout near the end programmed for 9 singles at 285lbs on bench, and could only get the first 3.

The burnout was obvious.
Took a month off from the gym, and reassessed goals.

Decided to look for weaknesses and found them in leg strength, core strength and mobility.
Got a proper pair of weighlifting shoes and addressed them by working on ATG high-bar squats and standing strict barbell presses.

Had to do all sorts of mobility work, especially with the ankles, and started going to a massage therapist regularly.
Squatted (form work, not much weight) 4-6 days per week most weeks from some time in late November until mid February.

Strict presses came along well.
Used the programming described in an earlier post, hit 175lbs easily on New Year's Eve (was pretty happy with that, as it was within a few pounds of my body weight).

Did one more training cycle after that with a mix of strict presses and later push presses for the heavier loading.
Hit 205lbs on push press in mid February.

With the newly won mobility, exploring the benefits of the Olympic lifts had some appeal.
Checked my ratios (power snatch/full snatch/squat/press) and made a plan.

Squat strength was way behind explosive power and pressing strength, and technique was seriously lacking.
On the good side, that explosive power normally falls behind strength as you age, so it's not a bad place to be.

Programming now is similar to the previous method, but 3 exercises are done in one workout now.
Programming is based on full snatch, adding clean and push press at 125% of the workout's snatch weight and squats at 150% of snatch weight.

Normally go to the gym 3 times per week now (not counting scheduled rest weeks).
Been making sure to get the workouts done in under 60 minutes, including warmup.

Very happy with current training results.

Consistently weighing about 180lbs (at a little under 6'2" barefoot).
Not sure about body fat %, but waist is small.
All of my joints joints have plenty of mobility and never suffer any aches/pains, other than thumbs (still conditioning to hook grip).
Never feel fatigued or challenged physically at my manual labor job.
Have plenty of strength to do pretty much anything I want outside the weight room.
Usually get marvelous sleep.

On the down side, it's actually difficult to eat enough calories to maintain or gain weight (should still be slowly gaining, given the stage of training).
The good side, beer consumption is only limited by alcohol processing abilities.
:D

Two things learned in the past 6 months:
Mental intensity -relax, save the "psycho strength" for the last few heavy workouts of a training cycle.
Food -supporting this training takes calories. Lots of calories.

Probably have another 9-10 months before being fully "in shape".
Definitely going to keep this as a lifelong habit.

Abu Jack 05-08-2016 14:45

Expanded my bicycle racing from cyclocross to doing an every other week critireum on Tuesday nights. They are alot of fun. The good thing about this course is that it's in the state fairground parking lot, so, no curbs. If you have to leave the course to avoid something there's room.

xollie316 05-09-2016 00:53

I've been doing Stronglifts 5x5 for about 15 months and have really enjoyed it. Basic weight lifting routine with Workout A: bench, squat, bent over row. Workout B: overhead press, squat, deadlift. All done for 5 reps x 5 sets with the exception of deadlifts which is 1x set of 5x reps. There are additional exercises I supplemented with after about 6 months: weighted dips, pull ups, and chin ups.

I do some accessory lifts after I've completely the heavy lifts just to add hypertrophy and get a better pump :lifter

5x5 bench weight has gone from 185 --> 265 lbs

5x5 OHP weight 95 --> 145 lbs

5x5 row weight 135 --> 215 lbs

5x5 squat weight 95 --> 235 lbs

1x5 deadlift 185 --> 335 lbs

3x5 weighted dips. body weight only --> 120 lbs

Noting my starting weights weren't my 'max' when I started but a weight I knew I could do and not break myself or get overly sore so I could let the progression do it's work.

No secret or anything ground breaking to it. The app is simple and creates graphs and charts for all your progress so I enjoy it.

GratefulCitizen 05-11-2016 22:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by xollie316 (Post 608361)
I've been doing Stronglifts 5x5 for about 15 months and have really enjoyed it. Basic weight lifting routine with Workout A: bench, squat, bent over row. Workout B: overhead press, squat, deadlift. All done for 5 reps x 5 sets with the exception of deadlifts which is 1x set of 5x reps. There are additional exercises I supplemented with after about 6 months: weighted dips, pull ups, and chin ups.

I do some accessory lifts after I've completely the heavy lifts just to add hypertrophy and get a better pump :lifter

5x5 bench weight has gone from 185 --> 265 lbs

5x5 OHP weight 95 --> 145 lbs

5x5 row weight 135 --> 215 lbs

5x5 squat weight 95 --> 235 lbs

1x5 deadlift 185 --> 335 lbs

3x5 weighted dips. body weight only --> 120 lbs

Noting my starting weights weren't my 'max' when I started but a weight I knew I could do and not break myself or get overly sore so I could let the progression do it's work.

No secret or anything ground breaking to it. The app is simple and creates graphs and charts for all your progress so I enjoy it.

That's an awesome program.
From what I've heard, given consistent hard training and sufficient food, most healthy men of at least average height hit 1RM of about 300/400/500 in bench/squat(low bar)/deadlift within 2-3 years on that program.

After taking the winter off, this is exactly the program my son is starting.
He's working on squat mobility right now (high bar ATG squats), once that's grooved, he'll be on it.

The 5x5 program is similar to what I used during foundational strength building back in my mid 20s.
It was 5x5 for workout A and 5-3-2-1-1 escalating weight for workout B.

Did them for squats twice per week (A/B) and bench twice per week (A/B).
Progression was based on whether lifts were made on the B workout.

Did back work on bench days (or the day after) and shoulder work on squat days (or the day after).
Took my bench to a 1RM of 320lbs and my squat(low bar) to a 5RM of 385lbs in about 2 years, at a body weight in the low 180lbs range.

Plateaued there and had to change things up to simultaneously maintain different training goals.
5x5 barbell compound lifts make for an awesome foundational program.

xollie316 05-12-2016 23:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by GratefulCitizen (Post 608568)
That's an awesome program.
From what I've heard, given consistent hard training and sufficient food, most healthy men of at least average height hit 1RM of about 300/400/500 in bench/squat(low bar)/deadlift within 2-3 years on that program.

After taking the winter off, this is exactly the program my son is starting.
He's working on squat mobility right now (high bar ATG squats), once that's grooved, he'll be on it.


Plateaued there and had to change things up to simultaneously maintain different training goals.
5x5 barbell compound lifts make for an awesome foundational program.

Nice! Yea the 5x5 compound lift routine is certainly not new or complicated, just a great base. Helped me a lot in the transition from 'running, rucking, push ups, pull ups' of the infantry / old army PT mindset to becoming bigger, stronger, faster.

If I extrapolate out my 15 months to 3 years I should be roughly at the 300/400/500 splits even given the diminishing returns. Bench and dips sky rocketed way past everything else just due to experience with push ups, chest workouts in the past. I had really never done anything but body weight squats (and all wrong, I've re-worked my form with a weight lifting coach to go full high bar ass-to-grass now. Feels way better but definitely took a couple months of form and mobility practice) so my lower body has definitely progressed slower but I enjoy it.

That 5x squat max is extreme! Repping twice your body+ is a great goal. I'm definitely working towards it.

Not surprisingly, when I'm deployed and deprived of alcohol and other distractions my lifts make the biggest gains. Strange...

Good luck to your son! Once the form and mobility are there, the weight increases easily.

GratefulCitizen 05-13-2016 01:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by xollie316 (Post 608640)
Nice! Yea the 5x5 compound lift routine is certainly not new or complicated, just a great base. Helped me a lot in the transition from 'running, rucking, push ups, pull ups' of the infantry / old army PT mindset to becoming bigger, stronger, faster.

If I extrapolate out my 15 months to 3 years I should be roughly at the 300/400/500 splits even given the diminishing returns. Bench and dips sky rocketed way past everything else just due to experience with push ups, chest workouts in the past. I had really never done anything but body weight squats (and all wrong, I've re-worked my form with a weight lifting coach to go full high bar ass-to-grass now. Feels way better but definitely took a couple months of form and mobility practice) so my lower body has definitely progressed slower but I enjoy it.

That 5x squat max is extreme! Repping twice your body+ is a great goal. I'm definitely working towards it.

Not surprisingly, when I'm deployed and deprived of alcohol and other distractions my lifts make the biggest gains. Strange...

Good luck to your son! Once the form and mobility are there, the weight increases easily.

Nice thing about ATG squats and strict presses is that you're able to make big strength gains (which also transfer to other heavier lifts) while using lighter weights.
Safer, more real-world transfer, and you can train harder; it's good that they're included in that program.

IIRC, for someone who primarily trains high bar squats, and has good thoracic strength, the ratio of high bar/low bar is around 90%.
The ratio tends to be farther apart for those with weak upper backs.

Leozinho 06-23-2016 09:10

I'm currently "Greasing the Groove" with pull-ups, as made popular by Pavel Tsatsouline.

I tested my max pull-ups then took that number and divided it in half. Then I perform a set of that number of pull-ups through out the day, every day. The key is never going to failure. I might do 10 or 15 sets during the day.

http://breakingmuscle.com/strength-c...t-work-for-you

We shall see. I'm only doing it because I can't get to the gym for a few weeks but do have a pull-up bar.

frostfire 06-24-2016 03:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leozinho (Post 611144)
I'm currently "Greasing the Groove" with pull-ups, as made popular by Pavel Tsatsouline.

Lot of merit in that theory IMHO. A lot of the 100 push up prog. etc follows the principle. Also, one of the beneficial side effect is injury prevention. I do the same with dry fire/holding exercise, replacing the pistol with 15lbs wt

tim180a 06-24-2016 06:19

I started Brazilian Jiu Jitsu about six months ago. I get a fantastic workout and it help me deal with mobility issues. Fun stuff!

Love the Strong First website. I do Pavel's kettlebell workout several times a week. Also started swinging the mace once in a while...

I will not grow old gracefully.

Leozinho 07-01-2016 14:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leozinho (Post 611144)
I'm currently "Greasing the Groove" with pull-ups, as made popular by Pavel Tsatsouline.

I tested my max pull-ups then took that number and divided it in half. Then I perform a set of that number of pull-ups through out the day, every day. The key is never going to failure. I might do 10 or 15 sets during the day.

http://breakingmuscle.com/strength-c...t-work-for-you

We shall see. I'm only doing it because I can't get to the gym for a few weeks but do have a pull-up bar.

Two weeks or so in and I have a little tendinitis in one elbow (never had it before.). I suppose its easy to go overboard with the volume. I've certainly done more reps with GTG than if I would have done a more typical pull-up program of 3 sets of 10 reps threemdays a week.

I've voodoo flossed it, which makes the elbow feel great but I'm not sure if flossing actually cures the tendinitis. If the tendinitis doesn't clear up I'll drop GTG. No sense developing a bad case of tendinitis.

Voodoo flossing = wrapping a bicycle inner tube very tightly around the elbow and then working the elbow through the range of motion. No one knows why it seems to work. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GZG_9O_mAgM

Leozinho 07-01-2016 14:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by tim180a (Post 611205)
I started Brazilian Jiu Jitsu about six months ago. I get a fantastic workout and it help me deal with mobility issues. Fun stuff!

Love the Strong First website. I do Pavel's kettlebell workout several times a week. Also started swinging the mace once in a while...

I will not grow old gracefully.

I've done a 180 on Pavel. I read some of his stuff 12 years ago and couldn't stand the "Comrade" and "Russians know best" shtick. Now I think he is the master of getting more out of less - which is great because the sad fact is that some of the masochistic workouts I did at age 30 are counterproductive at age 43. (And were probably counterproductive then too, but I really can tell now).

GratefulCitizen 07-01-2016 16:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leozinho (Post 611733)
Two weeks or so in and I have a little tendinitis in one elbow (never had it before.). I suppose its easy to go overboard with the volume. I've certainly done more reps with GTG than if I would have done a more typical pull-up program of 3 sets of 10 reps threemdays a week.

I've voodoo flossed it, which makes the elbow feel great but I'm not sure if flossing actually cures the tendinitis. If the tendinitis doesn't clear up I'll drop GTG. No sense developing a bad case of tendinitis.

Voodoo flossing = wrapping a bicycle inner tube very tightly around the elbow and then working the elbow through the range of motion. No one knows why it seems to work. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GZG_9O_mAgM

Cut the volume in half for about a week.
Week three is where most overuse injuries happen.

Another strategy employed by the Soviets/Russians with great success was volume variation.
I use it with everything and have no joint/tendon soreness or issues anymore.

In the case of my weight training, it's just alternating a low volume "core" workout with a progessive workout (progressing in volume and/or intensity).
Scheduled rest weeks (every six weeks or so) seem to help, too.

A way to do volume variation with pull-ups might go like this:

Figure out the total number of pull-ups you'll be doing over a period of training (say 4 weeks) allowing for progression by the end.
As an arbitrary example, call it 4000 pull-ups (number is probably more appropriate for a push-up program, but it makes the math easier).

Divide that volume into 4 unequal parts, with a zig-zag progression.
An example would be 700 for week 1, 1100 for week 2, 800 for week 3, and 1400 for week 4.

Then, within each week, do the same thing (except here, you can repeat the same volume on light days).
An example would be for week 1: 70 on days 1, 3, and 5, 140 on day 2, 160 on day 4, 190 on day 6, rest on day 7.

Do something similar with each of the remaining weeks.
This assumes all of the sets are of the about same size (IIRC, it's half your max on that program).

Take a rest week, test your new max somewhere near the end of that week, and program a new training schedule.

The Russians found that this volume variation was much easier on athletes' bodies and helped to avoid "staleness".
It's worked well for me in avoiding joint/tendon issues.

HTH.

GratefulCitizen 10-22-2016 18:29

Started a training experiment about a year ago.
Quit doing serious bench press training in late September 2015 (heaviest lift: 285lbs) and haven't done bench press at all since November 11, 2015.

After addressing various weaknesses and playing with the O-lifts through the winter and spring, it was back to somewhat standard training.
Did standing strict barbell presses, weighted chin-ups, and high bar squats using the progression scheme outlined in an earlier post.

Neglected direct stimulation of the lower chest (no bench presses of any sort, no flys, no dips, and fewer than 100 total push-ups in the last year).
The chest did get some indirect work from strict presses and chin-ups.

After taking several weeks off from the gym, decided to check the results of the experiment.
At nearly 45 years old, 6'2", 185lbs, and about a year of neglecting direct training, bench pressed 255lbs without much strain.

A six week dedicated training cycle would probably push that number much higher, due to neural efficiency (skill).
Basically lost no real foundational strength in a year, and probably gained.

Conclusion:
Not convinced the bench press is a required primary exercise for strength training, though it's certainly a useful accessory.
The push press, strict press, or weighted dip provide most of the same benefits plus other benefits.

MOO, YMMV.

jw74 10-30-2016 10:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by GratefulCitizen (Post 618258)
Conclusion:
Not convinced the bench press is a required primary exercise for strength training, though it's certainly a useful accessory.
The push press, strict press, or weighted dip provide most of the same benefits plus other benefits.

MOO, YMMV.

I'm with you. I have found that push ups and dips maintain my chest strength really well. I bench occasionally to see where I am at but I have taken long stretches of time off of benching and found that I am around 90 % of my max by just doing body weight exercises. Usually now I choose dumbbell press over traditional bench anyway because I dont workout with a spotter.
A side benefit is I can do a lot more sets of dips in the time it takes to rack bench up. more intensity and less time spent at the gym.

GratefulCitizen 05-14-2017 18:24

Been back in training for a little over two years.
Pretty much "in shape" now.

Training is no longer quite as structured.
I'll still use the 6-week training cycle listed in an earlier post if there's something specific I want to develop.

Worked on standing strict press some through the winter.
Have strict pressed 185lbs on a few different occasions without much trouble (at a body weight of 180-185lbs).

Squat mobility is fantastic, and there is no pain in any joint in my body.
I don't ever max in the squat (or very often in other lifts), as the risk/reward ratio usually isn't worth it.

Boiled down training now to high-frequency volume accumulation doing power clean/push press and weighted chin-ups at an estimated 80% max.
Along with continued squat mobility work, this works the entire body quite effectively.

What I've learned:
-Most training should focus on compound exercises which use the largest possible safe range of motion and work the desired muscle groups.
-Intensity (weight on the bar) should usually be between 70-85% of 1RM for the given exercise.
-Do not train to failure except on rare occasions (always leave a rep or 2 in the tank).
-A break down in form/technique is failure.
-The most important training "measurement" is probably weekly training volume.
-Spreading out training volume over more days (i.e. 6 half-volume days vs 3 full-volume days) is more effective.
-If you usually feel great after training, and you're not making progress, do a little more volume.
-If you usually feel crummy after training, and you're not making progress, do a little less volume.
-Given sufficient training stimulus, the most important factors are food and sleep.
-Taking up to 3 weeks off at a time doesn't seem to affect long-term progress.
-If you can afford it, a good massage therapist is a wise investment.


Pretty happy with the journey thus far.
Have to decide how far to take it.

Even at this age, there's room for further strength gains (only weigh 180-185lbs at 6'2").
Just have to decide how much weight I'm willing to gain.

For the older guys out there, here's a pretty good link to some age-rated general strength standards:
http://lonkilgore.com/freebies/freebies.html

tonyz 05-14-2017 20:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by GratefulCitizen (Post 627554)
Been back in training for a little over two years.
Pretty much "in shape" now.

Training is no longer quite as structured.
I'll still use the 6-week training cycle listed in an earlier post if there's something specific I want to develop.

Worked on standing strict press some through the winter.
Have strict pressed 185lbs on a few different occasions without much trouble (at a body weight of 180-185lbs).

Squat mobility is fantastic, and there is no pain in any joint in my body.
I don't ever max in the squat (or very often in other lifts), as the risk/reward ratio usually isn't worth it.

Boiled down training now to high-frequency volume accumulation doing power clean/push press and weighted chin-ups at an estimated 80% max.
Along with continued squat mobility work, this works the entire body quite effectively.

What I've learned:
-Most training should focus on compound exercises which use the largest possible safe range of motion and work the desired muscle groups.
-Intensity (weight on the bar) should usually be between 70-85% of 1RM for the given exercise.
-Do not train to failure except on rare occasions (always leave a rep or 2 in the tank).
-A break down in form/technique is failure.
-The most important training "measurement" is probably weekly training volume.
-Spreading out training volume over more days (i.e. 6 half-volume days vs 3 full-volume days) is more effective.
-If you usually feel great after training, and you're not making progress, do a little more volume.
-If you usually feel crummy after training, and you're not making progress, do a little less volume.
-Given sufficient training stimulus, the most important factors are food and sleep.
-Taking up to 3 weeks off at a time doesn't seem to affect long-term progress.
-If you can afford it, a good massage therapist is a wise investment.


Pretty happy with the journey thus far.
Have to decide how far to take it.

Even at this age, there's room for further strength gains (only weigh 180-185lbs at 6'2").
Just have to decide how much weight I'm willing to gain.

For the older guys out their, here's a pretty good link to some age-rated general strength standards:
http://lonkilgore.com/freebies/freebies.html

Yup, thanks for that link.

GratefulCitizen 05-14-2017 20:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brush Okie (Post 627556)
Thanks for the link.

What about stretching? Are you doing a good post workout stretch?

Work through necessary ROM as part of the warmup.
"Warmup" is really more of a nervous system thing than it is a temperature thing (though this matters in cold weather).

Hit the bone limit on squats, and shoulder ROM isn't a problem, so I don't stretch much anymore.
Flexibility and FUNCTIONAL mobility aren't the same thing.

If someone isn't able to apply meaningful force at a specific joint angle, there are few reasons (perhaps performing arts) to have flexibility which exceeds mobility.
It's just asking for injury.

Your body will stop at a certain range of motion in order to protect itself.
Strength should be present through the full range of motion.

I could probably use a little more hamstring ROM, but tight hamstrings are protective of the knees, and I'm not prone to hamstring pulls.
Might be different if I was running (fast).

Leozinho 05-31-2017 20:41

I'm doing Pavel's Simple & Sinister kettlebell program.

10 one arm swings x 10 (50 each side for a total of 100) followed by 10 Turkish Get Ups. Time standard is 5 minutes for the swings, one minute break, and 10 minutes for the getups.

You can do this 5-7 days a week.

But you don't go all out every workout. Maybe you test yourself once a week. The rest of the time you take enough rest between sets of swings so that your heart rate stays down and you don't go glycolytic.

It's a very minimal program and that you can do everyday. Not what I would do for SFAS, but would be a good deployment program since it doesn't leave you depleted and worn out. You could finish the workout and get straight on the truck without having to worry about being fatigued.

I'm closing in on doing this with a 32kg/70lb pound bell, which is the 'Simple' standard. Sinister is doing it in the time standard with a 106lb/48kg bell.

I plan to move to something else when I reach Simple, but I can see coming back to this.

apmarek 01-28-2018 19:55

What I'm Working on
 
Though it's not "new" to this thread or me, I'm doing the Horsemen Training Program again. However, this is the first time I'm aiming to complete it with a 20% calorie deficit. You feel the pain more that way, and I'm loving every minute of it.

CTEDT 02-13-2018 22:02

MTI
 
I've been doing the MTI 8wk ruck based selection program mixed with some crossfit.

I tend to avoid my gyms barbell strength programming and instead run through the daily metcons

MTI's program mixes in weekly paced ruck work (2mi repeats) and a longer ruck (up to 18mi) with 60lbs. Also has a lot of running (distance and pace work) and sandbag PT

Anyone else try it? I found out quick that I had some foot issues that I took care of with some insoles. Curious what some of you think about the volume of rucking.

Thanks

its_just_loo 02-21-2018 14:02

Conjugate Method
 
I started doing a conjugate method style for my big lifts(deadlift, bench press, overhead press, & squat) 3 months ago. I was on a 5X5 program, but I was plateauing. It's a rather in depth program that requires some creative thinking to make it effective. I've blended it with supersets of calisthenics while I wear my kit. Usually I do sprints or rucking later in the day. I've become much stronger while being able to put on a some size, increase speed, & improve my endurance. I would go more in depth on here, but it'd look like a college research paper. And, I don't think it would be very well received to take up that much space. However, a quick YouTube or Google search could provide all of the information you'll need.

Dimethylamine 04-23-2018 22:08

I am currently doing 863 which is a variation of Jim Wendler’s 531 program. I augment that by running 1-1.5 mile with each workout and on the off days, I go on a 3 mile run. I need to do more cardio and ruck more, but I’m trying to get stronger and a bit bigger so I have a good foundation for strength, because I found this plan netted good results when I went to BCT and OCS. I ended up maxing push ups and sit ups, and remaining injury free throughout training. However, the run, I still need to focus on!

After I get to my strength/weight lifting goals, I’ll probably cycle weeks where it’s more cardio and ruck heavy and lift once a week just to maintain.

MR2 04-25-2018 20:55

Working on my biceps. Refrigerator is new so the door sticks. :lifter

GratefulCitizen 03-28-2021 21:58

Gradually let training slip in 2017.
Was spending a ridiculous amount of time on commute and work.

Quit my unused gym membership and bought a nice barbell and some bumper plates in the spring of 2019.
Didn’t do much other than occasional cleans, presses, and barbell rows.

Bought a platform from my former gym when it closed in the fall of 2019.
Made it safer to drop the barbell.

Bought a power rack, bench, and more weights shortly before the pandemic in 2020.
Suffered from a case of fuckarounditus and didn’t really get much done in the gym until late spring.

During late spring and early summer, tried to do something resembling Mark Rippetoe’s Starting Strength program.
Wasn’t getting enough sleep and stalled, but did manage a 200lb standing strict barbell press in early August.

Transferred back to the little UPS trucks at the end of summer.
Was getting plenty of sleep, but had to get back into shape to do manual labor after sitting on my ass driving tractor trailers for 3 years.

Finally got serious and started training again 10 weeks ago.
Bought the ebook “Practical Programming” and started a novice linear progression.

Did one non-programmed workout to see where I was at, then started at week 2 of of the example program in the book called “Well-Executed Novice Linear Progression”.
I didn’t want to try to make judgements without a coach, so I decided to just follow this for as long as I could.

Basically, the program is 3 workouts per week where you squat every workout, alternate press/bench press each workout, and alternate deadlift/power clean each workout.
Weight is added every workout until you can’t anymore.

Squats/presses/bench presses are done for 3 sets of 5 reps, deadlifts for 1 set of 5 reps, and power cleans for 5 sets of 3 reps.
There are some other minor details, but that’s the basics.

Lifts at the beginning:
-Squat: 3 sets of 5 at 165lbs
-Bench press: 3 sets of 5 at 165lbs
-Press: 3 sets of 5 at 105lbs
-Deadlift: 1 set of 5 at 235lbs
-Power clean: 5 sets of 3 at 115lbs (started a couple weeks later)

Lifts after 10 weeks:
-Squat: 3 sets of 5 at 310lbs
-Bench press: 3 sets of 5 at 240lbs
-Press: 3 sets of 5 at 160lbs
-Power clean: 5 sets of 3 at 185lbs
-Deadlift: 1 set of 5 at 375lbs

Tweaked my back pretty badly in the first few weeks because I wasn’t keeping it properly in extension.
This made work and everyday life quite miserable, but I was still able to do the workouts.

Each time I go to lift, I’m convinced there’s no way I’ll be able to complete the workout, particularly the squats and deadlifts.
The designer of the program says to ignore how you feel and just do the workout until you actually fail.

So far, I haven’t skipped a workout nor failed on a single rep.
This program is absolutely miserable to do, but it works.

I’ll keep doing it until the weights quit increasing.

oldbandit 04-23-2021 04:46

Recently I was fired from my job and I decided to do something for now, which I had been putting off for many years. My wife is into handicraft and DIY and has tried many times to get me involved. So we bought her a new sewing machine, a new embossing machine, and since last Monday she has been teaching me needlework. I began to spend more time with my child. And I understand that this is cool! Now you need to create permanent passive income and not worry about layoffs

GratefulCitizen 10-31-2021 17:21

Did a pretty aggressive training schedule last spring (detailed in previous post)
The linear progression stopped after 12 weeks.

Was averaging 55 hours per week at work that spring (manual labor).
All that work, all that training, and being 49 years old found the limits of my recovery abilities.

Linear progression topped out that week at:

-3 sets of 5 squat at 330lbs
-3 sets of 5 bench press at 250lbs
-3 sets of 5 standing press at 165lbs
-5 sets of 3 power clean at 200lbs
-1 set of 5 deadlift at 385lbs

Plinked away for another month after that on an intermediate program.
Lifts topped out there at:

-1 set of 3 squat at 350lbs
-1 set of 4 bench press at 260lbs
-1 set of 5 standing press at 172.5lbs
-5 sets of 1 power clean at 222.5lbs
-5 sets of 1 power snatch at 157.5lbs
-(reset deadlift at a lower weight to facilitate recovery in other lifts)

Quit serious training after that, but occasionally plinked away in the gym.
Surprisingly, power cleaned 240lbs in August.

After the big power clean, went down to the basketball court to see if I could still jump.
At almost 50 years old, weighing 200lbs, and not having jumped in over 6 years, I had a no-step standing vertical jump of 23”.

Been plinking away again with a little more frequency now.
Just working up to 1 heavy set of 5 twice per week on squat/bench and once per week on press/deadlift.

Will keep doing this until progress stops, then might start another intermediate program.
Being strong has made my life much better in many ways.

Strength has proven to be a persistent adaptation.
It’s definitely worth it to dedicate 4-6 months to a linear progression at least once in your life.

My personal recommendation for anyone interested in health and strength would be to buy Mark Rippetoe’s “Starting Strength” if you’re younger, or Jonathan M. Sullivan’s “The Barbell Prescription” if you’re older, and do the programs.

GratefulCitizen 11-05-2023 22:15

Here’s the bottom line up front for those who don’t want to read my meandering post:

-Strength is a persistent adaptation.
-Getting strong gives you a fantastic return on investment.
-Mark Rippetoe has figured out what works to get you strong.
-Recommended training books are: Starting Strength (Mark Rippetoe), Practical Programming (Mark Rippetoe), and for old farts, The Barbell Prescription (Jonathan M. Sullivan).
-Recommended YouTube channels: Starting Strength (Rippetoe’s channel), Greysteel: Fitness after 50 (Sullivan’s channel).


************************************
Boring self-indulgent part of the post follows
************************************

My training in early 2021 was detailed in previous posts in this thread.
What follows is the journey since, for context concerning the persistence and benefits of strength training.

In late 2021, I was going to try to eke out some overall strength progression, but my job tended to interfere.
Was working as a package driver for UPS and Christmas season doesn’t leave much time or energy, especially at 49 years old.

Decided to just focus on bench press 3 times per week to do some ego lifting.
Made it up to 295lbs for a single on bench press by mid-December (2021) but never got the big 300lbs.

My shoulders had started complaining.
Decided discretion was the better part of valor and accepted that the big bench presses were probably a thing of the past.

In January (2022) another ego lift goal beckoned: a 1000lbs powerlifting total on my 50th birthday (one month away).
Just did an accelerated linear progression to prepare with some practice singles near the end of January.

On my 50th birthday, lifts were: 285lbs bench press, 335lbs squat, 380lbs deadlift (at a body weight around 200-205lbs and height of 6’1.5”).
Satisfying enough to continue training.

Picked a program out of Mark Rippetoe’s “Practical Programming” and started doing it in early February.
Plateaued in early April, missed a squat rep for the first time in over 20 years, and went back to occasional plinking away in the gym.

During those couple of months, high points were:
-1035lbs powerlifting total in a workout (squat 350lbs, bench press 280lbs, deadlift 405lbs).
-255lbs power clean
-960lbs strengthlifting total in a workout (205lbs standing press, 370lbs squat, 385lbs deadlift).

Since April of 2022, the plinking workouts have become less frequent and less intense.
In February of 2023 I was involuntarily promoted (permanent tractor-trailer driving), so work and commuting have all but eliminated useful training, as well as most physical activity.

The benefits of getting stronger:
-Working as a package driver was much easier.
-Been injury free when working or recreating.
-Free of any chronic pain in muscles or joints (though my wrists and shoulders can get irritated from too much bench pressing or power cleaning).
-Increased absolute endurance
-Very resistant to fat gain (though careful food choice and intermittent fasting certainly plays a role).

Absolute vs relative endurance is worth explaining.
Absolute endurance is moving against external resistance whereas relative endurance is moving yourself.

Occasionally, I will help loaders unload package cars so they can get my trailer loaded in time.
I can always unload faster than these kids who do it every night for hours, without getting as tired as they do.

These kids are younger and in much better shape.
I am 51 years old and lead a very sedentary lifestyle, including at work.

To be fair, over 20 years of handling packages results in more economical movement.
But, just being bigger and stronger makes the work much easier.

Now, concerning the persistence of the strength adaptation:
I have plinked away for a few light workouts every few months over the last year and a half, but haven’t lifted in over 3 months.

Just went out to my weight room to see what was there.
Did a standing press of 175lbs with plenty of room to spare and a power clean of 225lbs with a little room to spare.

Not much loss considering the level of inactivity.
Those months of hard work in the winter/spring of 2021 are still paying dividends.


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