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LE MAS
 

I came back from the range yesterday evening and talked to Stan about how his Land Warfare .223 performed at longer ranges. I was shooting a factory built DPMS, 20" AR-15, Jewell trigger, 1-8 stainless , free float tube, with a 10X Leupold Ultra M1. Back in July I chronographed this ammunition in the 20" gun and got readings from 3764-3856 fps in 80 degree weather. I had only tested this ammunition through barriers but I had not tested it for accuracy.
I noticed that Gene Econ had requested accuracy testing past 300 yards so I gave it a shot. I only had 10 rounds to shoot so the test is not conclusive, but it gives us an idea. The above rifle shoots sub MOA out to 800 yards with Factory 75 grain Black Hills and reloads. Stan did not think the Land Warfare bullet would be stable in my rifle so we were both surprised.

The following was shot prone with a bipod.

100 yards 3 shots 7/8" group


400 yards 3 shots 8" group

500 yards 3 shots 9.5" group

What would you expect from a guy that thinks an 11" barrel is a "long-gun".:rolleyes:

TS

Did I miss something?

When did he say that?

I can see that only in comparison of an SBR, SMG, or the like with a buttstock in comparison to a handgun.

TR

TR,

It was a "pun" aimed at Stan.

TS

APD281:

Thanks for the feedback. Although not perfect it is something. If I had known you just had ten rounds I would have asked you to shoot all ten for group at 300 if 300 was available. If not then 500.

Why would a 1/8 twist not be enough to stabalize these bullets I wonder? Obviously these bullets are lighter than 75 grains or at 3700 + FPS, your rifle would be in small pieces.

Gene

Under 50 grains, IIRC.

TR

TR:

So what? Unless these bullets are very long for their weight. A 50 grain 5.56 using conventional components is pretty short so a 1/13 or maybe a 1/14 twist is probably sufficient for stabalizing the bullet in air. An 1/8 will only overstabalize and in terms of military ammo for military purposes this is probably a good idea as it means a better ability to penetrate things harder than air. Unless the bullet jacket is too thin. They the bullet blows up in flight.

BTW -- the Fulton Uppers we bought for 1/25 SBCT SDMs all had a 1/9 twist. They killed folks pretty dead using the M-855. Why? My guess is that the 1/9 twist was sufficient for stability in air but not in much else so the issued M-855 bullets yawed and pitched faster when penetrating Martyrs and thus had a higher Pk given a hit. Also, these were 20 inch barrels that is (IMHO) the ideal length to inflict the best possible terminal effects at combat ranges using the 5.56.

Gene

My apologies, I thought you were asking for information about the weight of the bullets.

TR

Gene Econ,

The Land Warfare .223 bullets weight 45 grains and appear to be moly coated. I just received some .223 CQB, Harp II, and OTM loads today from Stan. I plan on doing some more barrier tests with them soon. At the end of this month or in November I'll test what is left at 300 if that is the distance you are interested in. Stan doesn't claim MOA accuracy. I shoot up close and at long distance so I understand your interest. The bullet's forte is hard armor penetration, massive soft tissue destruction, no overpenetration, and acceptable combat accuracy. I have not tested any other .223 that can offer these 4 things in 1 load.

Our department SWAT team currently uses Le Mas in 9mm, 45, .40, .223, and 308. We also use conventional ammunition as well.

I'll keep you posted.

TR:

Sorry, misunderstanding. It was due to the twist rate question. My 'so what' was in terms of their questioning a 8 turn twist for such a light bullet.

The question of twist rate and speed seems to come up with the Le Mas ammo many times and I am not sure why. The ammo should be depended on to function as long as the bullet is stable in flight and in a very wide band of speeds - or am I missing something?

Gene

Howdy Gene,

The question of bullet stability is effected by both rotational velocity and linier velocity. We estimate 365,000 as the rotational velocity where potential instability may occur for most of the Le Mas 5.56 product line. The twist rate and length of barrel affects both the RPM and launch velocity of a particular bullet. The Remington 26 inch bolt rifle with a 1/10 twist will produce less bullet RPM's at 4100 fps than a 16 inch 1/7 barrel that provides 3650 fps. We use both long barrel propellants and short barrel propellants. The short barrel propellants are used to optimize performance for dedicated short barrel weapons. When the optimized short barrel propellant ammunition is fired from fast twist long barreled weapon the maximum RPM’s for stable flight will be exceeded. When the optimized short barrel fast twist (1/7 twist) ammunition is fired from barrel lengths longer than the standard M-4 (1/7 twist) 14.5 inches, the rotational stability limits for a particular bullet can be exceeded. Additionally, many 5.56 barrel twist rates are not accurately labeled with just a 1/7, 1/8, or 1/9 barrel marking.

Of additional note, is that the Le Mas optimized short barrel, fast twist ammunition will also create greatly different pressure curves when fired from longer barrels with 1/7 twist rates. Some folks like Gary Roberts, can’t seem to get this information through their brain housing groups as they attempt to measure the short barreled ammunition case mouth pressures from inappropriate non ported test barrel lengths and twist rates. Le Mas uses long barrel dedicated propellants compatible from barrels which exceed 14.5 inches with a 1/7 twist.

The biggest lack of effective lethality from currently procured US Military 5.56 weapon systems occurs in the short barreled weapon systems. Le Mas has designed specific ammunition which optimizes effective combat lethality from either short barreled 1/7 twist barrels or long barreled 1/7 twist barrels.

Hope some of this explanation helps, standing by,

Stan

Which is correct for a 16 inch 1 in 7 twist barrel?

The 16 inch 1/7 is a gray area for the short barreled Le Mas 5.56 NATO LW, CQB, and OTM rounds. Some 16 inch 1/7 government agency AR's have shot the ammo well, while the Knight 16 inch 1/7 barrels 1/7 have demonstrated unstable trajectories. We advertise the short barrel 5.56 rounds to be optimized for the 10.5-14.5 inch 1/7 twist barrels.

There are some 18 inch 1/8 twist barrels that shoot the short barrel rounds well, and some which do not. The Le Mas short barrel 5.56 ammunition performance is optimized in the 11.5-12.5 inch 1/7 twist barrels with velocities around 3400 fps non suppressed. The same11.5-12.5 inch short barrel ammunition when fired from the 1/9 twist barrels are usually more than 200 fps slower. The 10.5 inch 1/7 barrels with Le Mas short barrel ammo will deliver 3025 fps, while the 10.5 inch 1/9 twist will average 2750 with the same ammo.

The 14.5-16.0 inch 1/8 or 1/9 twist barrels usually begin to accelerate the Le Mas 5.56 ammo faster than the same length 1/7 twist barrels. The optimum 16 inch 5.56 barrel twist rate would be 1/8 or 1/9 with the short barrel ammo. The optimum 20 inch barrel length using the same Le Mas ammo would be 1/9 twist.

The 16.0-20 inch long barrel Le Mas 5.56 ammo which is suitable for 1/7 twist is a separate product line form the short barrel ammo.

Clear as mud yet?

Standing by

OK Stan, I am sort of simple minded, are you telling me I need to buy the RBCD version or exactly what are you telling me?

Stan:

Makes sense to me although it is kind of peculiar. Fast powder for short barrel and slower powder for longer barrel. Normally we do such things due to bullet weight but in your case I guess you are doing it to control the rate of spin through velocity, without blowing up a rifle or carbine.

Thank you

Gene

What is your question?

You said it was a separate product line, so are you saying it is the RBCD line or what? Your post was not very clear to me, as I said I am sort of simple minded. Which product suits a 16 in barrel with a 1in 7 twist...that is what I have...

The Le Mas 5.56 product line is divided into either short barrel or long barrel product lines. The long barrel 5.56 ammunition will work just fine in your 16 inch 1/7 twist barrel.

There are 4 different 5.56 bullets we work with, which one flavor are you interested in?

Stan, this is my personal home defense carbine the need is for effective performance in flesh butwith out the risk of over penetration at modest ranges. I do not expect the range to exceed 100 yds and that would probably be very rare.

PM sent

I know it has been mentioned in passing a couple of times, but nothing deffinitive has been stated. According to the Geneva convention would we be allowed to use this ammo?

If someone answered this please post the link and I'll elevate. :D

The Deputy JAG, US Army has allegedly issued a decision paper that the round is too destructive for our military forces to use.

Curious, since some of his associates argue that the round is ineffective and does not work well at all.

IMHO, since we are not fighting Geneva protected opponents (no uniform, no recognized leadership, no compliance by them with the Conventions), then terrorists can legally be engaged by any ammo we desire (as some units have had long had exceptions to do with commerical hollowpoints).

OTOH, I think that the POTUS recently stated that we would afford full Geneva and Hague protection to our GWOT opponents.

I do personally not see why we cannot send our terrorist opponents to their just rewards as quickly and efficiently as possible.

TR

Thanks for the response, and I agree 100%. If it kills someone more effectively, who cares, they're just as dead.

A couple of months ago I got a call at 3:00AM from one of my comrades. He was excited to tell me that he had put down a deer that had been struck by a vehicle with the .40 Le Mas round I had given him. I grabbed my knife and went to his location to check out the internal damage. Upon arrival I saw a very large buck. I would estimate his weight at over 160 lbs. He had a hole in his upper left chest close to his neckline. My co-worker Mike told me that the deer had been hit by a vehicle and walked away. He found it laying on the ground 100 yards away. He appraoched the deer and he raised his head up. Mike shot the deer from about 15 yards out. It was lying down with it's head up. The shot entered at about a 45 degree from left to right. I was not impressed with the shot placement at first. After he described the deer's position, it didn't seem too bad. According to Mike after the shot the deer tried to get up, stumbled, and fell down. Mike approached the deer in order to check it's status. The deer raised it's head slowly and Mike shot it in the back of the head. Mike said that the deer could not get up. I began tracing the bullet path from the entry point. The bullet went through a rib and into the lungs. I put several fingers of my right hand into the chest and pulled out shredded lung and blood. I could not tell if the heart was hit or not, but at least 1 of the lungs was destroyed. My fellow co-workers and I have shot numberous deer in similar situtations. I have never seen this kind of internal damage from a conventional JHP .40, .45, or 9mm. I still haven't found a 2 legged volunteer to test these round on, but our SWAT team is loaded up with Le Mas for entry work.

Edited.

BK