This for your "religion of peace". http://www.wral.com/lifestyles/healt...story/8103708/.

That is tragic news.... they were good people doing important work. It's a terrible loss that they were killed.


I still believe that some do want peace though. For example...

Palestinian's organs go to Israel

The parents of a Palestinian boy killed by Israeli soldiers in the West Bank have donated his organs for use in Israel, in the hope of promoting peace.
Twelve-year-old Ahmed Ismail Khatib was shot in the town of Jenin by troops who mistook his toy gun for a real one.

His organs were transplanted into five Israeli children and a woman aged 58.

His father, Ismail, said saving lives was more important than religion, and added: "I feel that my son has entered the heart of every Israeli."

Ahmed died in hospital from his injuries after being shot in the body and head while throwing stones at Israeli soldiers who were hunting suspected militants in Jenin.

The Israeli army expressed regret over his shooting.

'Gesture of love'

Israel's parliamentary speaker, Reuven Rivlin, praised the Khatib family's action as a "remarkable gesture" after decades of conflict between Israelis and Palestinians.

Mr Khatib said he was very proud that his son's organs would help six Israelis.

"I have taken this decision because I have a message for the world: that the Palestinian people want peace - for everyone," he told the AFP news agency.

"We have no problem whether it is an Israeli or a Palestinian [who receives his organs] because it will give them life," added the boy's mother, Ablah Khatib.

Ahmed's kidneys, liver, heart and lungs were transplanted into Israelis including Jews, Arabs and a Druze girl, medical officials said.

The girl, aged 12 and from Israel's Arab minority, received Ahmed's heart, bringing to an end a five-year wait for a transplant.

Her father, Riad Gadban, called the donation a "gesture of love" and said his daughter was regaining strength after the operation.

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/h...st/4417354.stm

No.:mad: Let's not.
Baseball is too beautiful, too pure . . .
Haberdashery is another funny word

Sky Hook
 

Fascinating, I suppose Captain Ahab felt the same way. I must confess like many American boys growing up, there were Muslims I admired. I had posters of them on the wall, cheered their exploits with passion, admired their courage and dominance, and hoped to emulate their achievments. One in particular was a hero for a great many Americans. There were two of the them, you might have heard of Muhammad Ali, or Kareem Abdul Jabar? If what you say hold true, that every Muslim is the enemy, as a patriotric American I'm in quite a quandry, all this time I just thought of them as gifted athletes who dominated their respective sports and were Americans of a particular faith. Since both of them are wealthy and could contribute significantly to Zakat, perhaps we should monitor them just in case, since by definition there is nothing else in their lives of greater importance or identity? I guess I have to root for the Celtics going forward...:eek:

Sky Hook
 

The following is an interesting read > http://www.nefafoundation.org/hlfdocs.html Zakat...

Edited to add:

My neighbor, knowing the killers endeavor, willingly gave bullets to the man who shot my wife - Is my neighbor guilty?

Unless those Muslims view attacking the U.S. as a false jihad. You seem convinced that because some Muslim clerics advocate attacking the United States, all do. I fail to understand that logic.
You would make a pretty good extremist cleric, given your conviction that being a good muslim requires attacking the United States.

There are over a billion Muslims in this world. An Estimated five to seven million living in the United States. If all these people were supporting jihad against the United States, I think there would have been more attacks against us in the last 10 years. It appears most muslims disagree with your belief of jihad. MOO.

Why are so many Islamic Charities implicated (and often shut down) for supporting terror finance?

Supporting jihad is required by Sharia law. Where the jihad takes place is up to the zakat workers discretion. Clearly much of that money is going to funding jihad against the United States and certainly the rest of the Western world as well.

And just because shit isn't blowing up, doesn't mean it's not jihad.

Whether the individual Muslims like where the money is going or not is irrelevant.

We are our own worst enemy. That's a Dhimmi administration (yes both 43 and 44) paying jizyah.

Quran 9:29

009.029
YUSUFALI: Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

PICKTHAL: Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.

SHAKIR: Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

LINK:
http://www.thespiritofislam.com/text/Q14.html

Is that a fact or an opinion?

Richard

h1.1 Zakat is obligatory

(a) for every free Muslim (O: male, female, adult or child):
h8.17 The seventh category is those fighting for Allah, meaning people engaged in military operations {Jihad} for whom no salary has been allotted …

(Reliance of the Traveller, pages 244-274)

For the Sunni, 80-90% of the Muslim world are required to pay, unless they're MINO's :D

For Shia, that would be Khums, the first category which go to the Imam, lets hope he's nice... :D

Nisaab PP 11-12.

http://www.zikr.co.uk/books/Zakaat.html

This article also lists a number of exceptions - is that true? :confused:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zakat

Richard

I see your scrimshaw and haberdashery and I raise you "zakatability".

MOO, there is clearly a misunderstanding going on here as to who is paying for the bulk of --Islamist efforts in the west including peaceful and non-peaceful efforts-- I was hinting at Saudi Arabia and Iran and their fellows.
:munchin

ETA: oops- had zakat on the brain and mistyped. All Muslims do pay zakat when they are not under hardship themselves, which Richard referred to. But not everyone is a great Muslim, either, especially the rich international Muslims.

Are ALL Muslims required to follow the 5 pillars of Islam?

“It is not correct that Shias avoid paying Zakat as prescribed by the Holy Quran.
Zakat is one of the five pillars of religion. It is mentioned in the traditions that, Prayers will not be accepted from those who do not pay Zakat. And if someone avoids giving one carat of Zakat, he will die a death of Jew or Christian”

I think it would be a misconception to think Shia didn’t pay Zakat, nevertheless, The Five pillars of Islam in Sunni schools of Fiqh have this to say:

Hanafi Fiqh:

9.2.1Those Who May Receive Zakat
7)In the Path of Allah: are the stranded fighters. (Jihadists)
http://www.ummah.net/Al_adaab/fiqh/saheefah.html

The Hanafi books mention that the way of Allah refers to those fighting as well as those wanting to offer the Hajj.

Maliki Fiqh:

The soldier (Mujahed): Those fighting for the sake of Allah
In the Maliki school of thought a person fighting for Allah is given Zakat money even if he or she is considered affluent.
http://www.rahima.org/zakat.htm

Hanbali Fiqh:

Those fighting for Allah…
http://mac.abc.se/~onesr/h//#_Toc50551565

Shafi'i Fiqh:

See the Reliance of the Traveller.

80 percent of 1.2 billion is quite a large number…even just 20% - let us hope for MINO’s :D

Raymond Ibrahim discusses how Islamic charitable contributions often end up in the hands of Islamic jihadists in the videos below:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BRGG-BhlY4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Voff1QJVzIM

Bostom discusses Sufism:
http://www.americanthinker.com/print...ufi_jihad.html

I think this thread has some more mileage in it- especially in regard to nmaps proposition.

The idea that is us or them- dying or fundamentally changing- has come up before. The solutions have been, one the one side- it better be them either way. On the other, it is 'we have more options than just those two and one of those options or several will come to light and save the day'.

Neither of these approaches take grasp of the factors driving the region. Overpopulation and Saudi Arabia are two of those.

There is a business theory about "influentials"- that finding a 10% section of the population that influence the other 90% disproportionately will be an effective way to influence the entire population of consumers. That same theory is applicable here, but perhaps not to people.

What are those 10% factors in the region, and are they being addressed?
:munchin

Influence would appear to be what the terrorists tactics are all about.
Their strategy is long-term.

They cannot reverse the battlefield decision.
Their actions are directed at influencing the political will of the American voter.

"Useful idiots" in this country further the terrorist agenda in the hopes that they may be perceived as wise philospher kings, above the fray; as if they're breaking up a fight between misbehaving children.
Meanwhile, the infiltrations and alterations of society continue.

The terrorists' agenda may take decades or much longer to achieve.
They are fine with this timeline.

The useful idiots care not what happens to posterity.
They just might get to enjoy "peace for our time".

That's an interesting idea. Use the influentials to modify the value system, and you modify the overall group.

By the way - you mention overpopulation. I agree. Combine water issues with population pressures and add some poverty, and it seems likelihood radicalism of some sort will follow.

Although it doesn't address the Supremacist Ideology of Islam, or Taqi ad-Din Ahmad ibn Taymiyyah, meet the influentials :D It's short & sweet, most of what you already know...

(Part 1) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zp4yHd0tCRQ
(Part 2) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQn5yahsCBM

Don't leave out Fetullah Gulen or Tarq Ramadan...

Look, T Rock, to be frank, most Muslims on the street are not aware of the people you reference. They are influenced by imams on the radio. I looked through them and some of the things your references mention match up-- and some of them don't. Arab Muslims care about Gaza, and most edicts are in reference to that.

There is apparently a culture of academia which studies Islam in the M.E. and another in the ME which seeks to counter. Having met with reps of both, I have to say neither is connected to the street reality significantly.

I met an Egyptian high senator (they do it british house of lords style) who insisted that Iran needs nukes to stabilize the ME-- and an Israeli who insisted that nuclear war was upon them-- and Palestinians who didn't have anything against Israelis. There are all kinds of people.



NMAP-- I met a CA officer attached to SF in Djibouti (sp?) who was convinced that water wars are what my generation will face in Arabia and North Africa and South America. Good thing to know some Spanish too huh?

What influences the Imams on the radio, where do they get their source material ?

BLUF: Saudi Arabian style governments that have an interest in creating another billion Muslims in the next decade.


Not the what but the WHY is the important point. Where? the holy Quran. Why? Very important question, one we have all danced around.

MOO-- Why I am hearing dictates to slaughter Westerners-- I pretty much attribute the whole thing to Saudi style Muslim Brotherhood types.

Another thing-- There is no free media in the ME. There is no independent journalist who would report you were captured, tortured, and killed, if that happened. There is only state media, and only what Mubarak wants to hear comes on the air. That's a fact, Jack.

So the entirety of this imamish advertising is very much supported by governmental powers (MB), although Mubarak would send them all to Mars if that would keep him in power for another 30 years.

I heard a joke in the East once--

God is reading a newspaper and realizes Mubarak has been in power for 30 years. He sends Gabriel down to bring him home. Gabriel says, It's time to part ways with your people Hasni. Hasni says, "Really? Where are they going?"

I saw this in the Economist eventually and it is a real joke! But it's illegal. Consider yourself part of Arab culture.

I'm thinking the influentials, liquid gold, and the general goals of Hizb ut-Tahrir, which is an Ikhwan entity, as well as what you are alluding to...
http://www.hizb-america.org/multimed...onference-2009

Not unlike people in the U.S. who listen to various radio and television shows. Limbaugh does influence people in the U.S., so I can see how some imam might do the same. However, there is a deeper level - for example, the Republicans gained Limbaugh's help by giving him a certain amount of recognition. So we have a case where someone influenced the radio personality.

To change values...to introduce a sort of computer virus of the mind that subtly modifies the target audience...we would need to find the core of influence. They exist, surely - but I don't know who they might be. Of course, I don't really need to. Hopefully, someone does.

Rhetorical observation: perhaps the drug gangs, with their offers of "gold or lead" provide a notion of how to address specific elements. It does not matter how the centers of influence are turned, only that they are turned.


Water is likely to represent a global phenomenon. Take a look at the book "When the rivers run dry" by Pearce - there is a remarkable correlation between conflict and water. Pakistan, their floods notwithstanding, is a case in point. Combine population growth with more volatile weather patterns and limited water resources, and you have a formula for resource wars. In my opinion, we will see them. This is not the time to cut the Pentagon budget.

It isn't just Spanish that we'll need. I strongly suspect that we will enter a period of general warfare - with the enemy, perhaps, being innocent men, women, and children who seek only to survive. Yet make no mistake, if we suppose a limitation of essential resources, including food and water, those hypothetical innocents may constitute quite a deadly enemy.

The above paragraph may imply that our own culture - Western civilization, for lack of a better term, or group A if you prefer - may face its own crisis of values and beliefs. Thus, the underlying value system of our own culture may be destroyed and reformed, purely in the interests of survival. For examples, see Diamond's book "Collapse", with particular focus on the failure of rains in Central America several hundred years ago. As I recall, casualty rates approached 99%.

Is this confusing the difference between the doctrine and it's requirements (IDEOLOGY) and the PEOPLE who are under it's influence?

I'm referring to people I met who are active participants in US institutions and also hold positions of influence in the M.E.

One that sticks out was a guy who was just educated as all hell and insisted the entire M.E. needed nuke technology. Each country. For nuclear energy, of course. :rolleyes:

There is a very influential Arab faction, the rich internationals, who are not under the influence of Islam in the same way as the poor. But, their loyalties still lie very strongly on their own side.

1785.
 

Overpopulation is an issue because of increased life expectancy.
The world fertility rate has been in decline.
http://www.google.com/publicdata?ds=...fertility+rate

Worldwide, the replacement rate is something like 2.3 children per woman.
The world could be below that rate within 20 years.

What happens when there are a bunch of old people depending on a bunch of young people and resources are limited?
What happens when old people and unborn children become disposable?

With socialism, nobody needs kids to take care of them in old age, they'll just borrow the labors of someone else's kids.
Tragedy of the commons.

Don't think overpopulation will be the problem.

Japan is suffering from demographic implosion.
The EU is suffering from demographic implosion.

China is a demographic time bomb.
What happens when all those boys grow up and want wives?

As you love to say, Nmap, "demographics is destiny".

At least that one is easy:

Soylent Green!

(Chuckle) Will be? I'm of the view that we are presently in population overshoot, and hence that the overpopulation event has already occurred. The consequences remain to be experienced. All MOO, YMMV.

Full agreement there.

I suspect so....

So much better for you than Soylent Red too.

This fraction is the power elite, all their power is vest in the belly of the beast, they use it as a weapon:the uneducated, dirt poor, religiously suppressed masses. Decapitate this structure, and the entire culture implodes. MOO

Interesting. Would this not imply that there is no real way to influence them, leaving only more traditional approaches such as worked in previous wars?

And, might it be to their advantage to excite and export their undesirables - much as Europe did during the Crusades? Relief of population pressures just might be their hidden agenda.

They're educated in the West, and then return home to take positions of influence, in business and in the government.

Perhaps influencing immigrants deliberately during the educational period is the main opportunity our society has to work positive changes into the mentality of the international power group of Muslims; but, that's a thin hope. We have already had their educations for a while, and the university system here hasn't produced any pro American 'International Muslims for America' support groups.
Instead, we have the reverse, with Americans on convoys to Gaza. :munchin


And, to the relief of population pressure/colonization/cultural invasion-- that's a tried and true strategy for them. It's right there in the manual, and in their history, and in their current preaching. Europe is getting flooded with them. The US is just starting to see the front of a tidal wave.

Well...I guess I'm not surprised. The U.S. University has lots of people who are remarkably critical of the U.S. and its policies. According to many within the university system (them, not me!) the U.S. is a racist, brutally unfair, fascist society that is designed to exploit persons of color around the world. (Again, that's NOT my attitude!) So if Islamic society says the the U.S. is evil, and they come over here and are told exactly the same thing, it's hardly surprising that they believe it.

And, too, the U.S. seems to be in a period when it questions (denies?) all the old values and assumptions. In fact, for the general population, it almost seems that there are no values. But I think people yearn for values and standards, and Islam seems to supply that. If the above is true, then we face an uphill fight.

I go back to my theory. We're group A, they're group B. Either A will be destroyed and B will win, or vice-versa. Perhaps both A and B will be destroyed. By destruction, I do not necessarily mean killed - the elimination I speak of could be the ruin of their culture. I do not think the West should be sanguine about victory.

It is important to remember that the war on terror is not about anger at muslims.

The warriors of this nation are not driven by anger or hatred.
Their motivations and thoughts are much higher.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nr7Dc...ayer_embedded#!

Thank you to all who have sacrificed so much.

War On Terror's Other Cost: Undeserved Anger At All Muslims
 

+1. Thank you.

Sincerely,

This is the wrong headline, it has nothing to do with Asian men, it's not racial, its Muslims and their world view.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/...dCU_story.html

9 men sent to jail in UK for raping, abusing girls in case that stirred racial tensions

D - I don't think it's as simple as that.

• Based on their ancestry, I think Islam may be a contributing factor for a number of this group, but we don't know that all of these men are, in fact, Muslim.
• Geographically speaking, they are Asian men.*
• Such racially motivated behaviors remains a factor amongst groups where social alienation and the latent effects of various international policies (e.g., colonialism, slavery, religion, etc) continue to be used as perverse justification for people's misbehaviors throughout our modern world.

And so it goes...

Richard :munchin

* South Asia - Afghanistan, Pakistan, India, Sri Lanka, Nepal, Bhutan, and Bangladesh.