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My last 2-3 weeks at CCC (Kontum, RVN) I spent de-dudding the range!!! We had a bunker full of 2.75 FFs, that had failed to fire from the Cobras, and a bunch more damaged or otherwise corrupted ordinance. This stuff was everything from 60, 81, 4.2 mortar rounds to 40mm, hand grenades, and damaged ammo.
The Viets were tasked with the disposal, so they loaded up the Deuce & a Half + trailer up with this stuff to get rid of it. The LAST THING they loaded was the C4 and Det-Cord. Of course the FIRST THING off of the vehicles was what was loaded LAST!! They primed the C4, set it on the ground and then ubnloaded the vehicles, stacking all of the above ON TOP OF THE C4!!! Needless to say, when it went off, it was all scattered over about 10 thousand squre meter area 100m X 100m. Since I was a short timer, opns were slow, I had had a propensity to mess with the demo and I was also qualified as a 12 (Combat Engineer) I was assigned the task of de-dudding!!! I started off blowing everything in place. Then, after Billy Greenwood told me that I was not going to leave till it was cleared, I started moving anything that had a "Safety Device" still installed. This whole thing turned from being WOW THIS WILL BE FUN..to OH SHIT what have I gotten myself into. All went well and I even recruited a bunch of the Viets to help collect the UXO because they had to stay camped out on the range guarding the stuff until it was all gone. Still amazed every day, that I ever saw my 23rd birthday!!! |
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AM: The day I took over Ben Het I grabbed my team sergeant and we started to walk the perimeter and went down to check out the Corps 8" and 175mm batteries that were inside outr perimeter for cross border support for you all. As we headed down the grade we saw someone running a firing wire back from this large crater left by 122 rocket fire and before we could find out what was happening they detonated it. Come to find out it was a variety of small arms, 8" and 175mm rounds, and associated UXO which shot a fire ball at least 100 feet high, a smoke column three or four times higher than that and sent a concussion wave strong enought to make an incoming chopper damn near fall out of the sky. UXO, now supersensitized, went everywhere. The only good thing about all of this was that the chopper belonged to the feckless fourth division brigade commander who was ripped. Of course he thought we had done it and wanted us to find every UXO and destroy it-to which I replied in my normal tactful and respectful manner that he could get his own troops to do it. I did volunteer to have my demo guys give his weenies a class on proper disposal of duds-both metallic and two legged. |
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18 Series: only in designated hazardous duty operations, in peacetime (and I read that as not in a combat zone) call EOD. Let me know Goat! QUOTE] Well by the Reg... it doesn't matter whether your in Combat or in a training environment you must meet certain conditions. The biggest one was you had to be OCONUS. State side you should be calling EOD from the post your on to clear the range. Most Post that SF Groups are on have an EOD Company that they can train with. Hell on Bragg we have a EOD BN now, so there will be four EOD Comanies. The UXO had to be smaller than 120mm and for COL Moroney, the biggest one is you fired it and it duded. You clean it. From the mouth of Mr. Knight; it came from USSF going on MTTs or JECTs and leaving XUOs on a farmers field during the winter. Then he comes back to have a goat or sheep blown up in the summer. In Combat we don't have EOD TECHs embedded with ODAs, as do the SEAL with their SEAL Platoons. So the 18C is the TECH - clear the way!! |
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Name the below on this UXO.
1) Type by function of UXOs. 2) Safety Hazards for them. 3) BIP method? 4) How do you Charlie's move thisUXO for Disposal? |
PMN-2
This is the Soviet PMN-2 AP landmine. I'm not an 18C so I'm out of my league here. Because the fuse is blast resistant, I would guess that it requires a special charge to BIP. Something like a shaped charge.
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1) Type by function- Soviet PMN-2 Anti-personnel/Blast Landmine
2) Safety hazards- HE, FRAG, C/S, BT, Movement 3) BIP- I would use a small EFP if it was available, or depending on location/terrain shoot it with the barrett. 4) I would not attempt to move this mine. |
Since an opinion has already been rendered, as far as moving it goes, I do not think that it was emplaced on that stack of bags, so I suspect that someone has already moved it.
An anti-handling device would appear to be unlikely in that location, but in the ground, I would be highly suspect and would look to BIP. TR |
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I BIP with C-4 bent into a "C" shape as to bridge the mine over the top, I used more C-4 for some bulk explosive items in the room. PMNs were placed trying to "trip" us up or local (HN) forces upon entering buildings. Hotshot - As far as the moving..DON"T!! Its best to BIP everything. If U think or know that munitions or mines has some type of AHD or BT why would U have a local move it?? U have to work within the area and U telling a local to move something to end up with a hand missing or even an arm.... think about your action and the impact they have on your team and the local option. Why make a HN Solider do it, then U have to deal with treating them and MEDEVACing them, usually an hour wait time. Its a double edge sword and a thin line to walk. No AHD as far as movement on the PMA, but a AHD as far a disarming. once armed you must blow in place. Just like the Yugo PMA (AP Mine), its all in the Fuse. Quote:
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Looks broken, and I follow the rule. "You break it, You bought it." :munchin |
Gentlemen
Gentlemen,
IF it blows and you were too close, I get to visit with you. Some times I can help but sometimes I can't even find you. A SF Medic, Sends.;) |
WWII era UXO
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Sounds like a cool job. When I asked the 1st Group guys about souvenir hunting they said it was illegal. I have no idea about the shell in the Picture thou. |
Looks like a 5"/38 caliber HE shell to me, with a mechanically fused nose.
Could be the Japanese equivalent, or possibly a piece of land based artillery in the 5"-6" class. TR |
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If I had to guess, I would call it a stick grenade, small mortar round, or rifle grenade. Appears to be less than 50mm in diameter, and judging from the corrosion, at least partially copper. Could be a 37mm or 40mm projo. FYI, WP rounds are normally base ejecting, if you can see the bottom and it is still closed, the round is likely not a WP. TR |
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The Japanese also had some small "Knee Mortars" in the 52mm range that had lots of copper on the bottom of the Projo, of course in that condition, there is no way of knowing.
Cool Pics Gladan!, Keep em coming. Good times, Blake |
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Yeah, but his pic does not appear to have the safety pins in it any more.:D TR |
If your EOD folks haven't already warned you, the Japanese used a LOT of Picric as the explosive filler!! That stuff, when combined with the metal casings, turns into some un-Godly sensitive explosives!!!
Take care. Martin |
We were on a demo range in Okinawa, EOD runs those ranges so they have to be there when we used them.
We're setting up and EOD walks up with a few " WWII satchel cherges" they had "found" in a bunker. On close inspection the bags were leaking clear liquid......:rolleyes: EOD asked us to be "gentle" in handling them.......:rolleyes: We tried to get the Jr. Weapons man to take one, run onto the demo range, pull a fuse igniter and throw it, fuze burning, while we took pictures, he wouldn't go for it.:D TS |
[QUOTEWe tried to get the Jr. Weapons man to take one, run onto the demo range, pull a fuse igniter and throw it, fuze burning, while we took pictures, he wouldn't go for it.:DTS[/QUOTE]
LOL - It was more than likely the fear of Ernie T finding out and kicking whats left of his ass........ |
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I would not be moving that stuff around if it were not my job, but you are the one who has his ass on the line. What do you think usually causes the UXO to blow and injure civilians?
Grenades that have been activated and dudded are very bad, as are any munitions with a pizeo-electric type fuze (usually PIBD fuzed rounds). The 5"/38 round in question does not look that much different from the previous one, other than placement, what made it so dangerous? One M-112 Charge Block of C-4 should be sufficient, if properly placed, not sure why the first did not work, unless it were misplaced or not directly in contact with the UXO. I have seen several 155mm rounds blown with single blocks, and the 5"/38 is smaller. What it above the smoke plume in the last photo? Looks like a tire carcass. Did they put something over it as a tamp or damper? Maybe a bomb blanket? TR |
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Neither you, nor I, are competent to make a visual determination of what is inert, versus what is a very sensitive item. The problem here is that you can make 50 good decisions, or be lucky 50 times, and the next one kills you. Since handling ordnance is what kills civilians, it may be what kills you as well. I would take photos, give them my opinion, and keep the curious away, but I would not be moving items on my own that may have a 65 year old explosive filler and multiple triggers. Not your job, IMHO. That is why they get the extra money. There is either a typo, or a miscount in your charge list above. There are FOUR, not TWO M-112 charge blocks in the photo, that is a NEW of 5.0 pounds of C-4, NOT 2.5. It is also not configured as a counter-charge. Curious. Thanks for sharing, very interesting. TR |
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First three pics appear to be a Jap frag grenade, pin intact.
The lineup looks like a stripper clip of Jap 7.7mm rifle rounds, next looks like a portion of a cartridge case (could tell more easily with close-up or other end), the grenade, two fuses, a nose cone (may contain a fuse), and the last two items are beyond my photo analysis capability. Nice shots and great history lesson. TR |
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UXO Site
This is a good site with a program to ID UXO and Ordance.
ORDATA II Must 18Cs where getting CD-ROM as "Take-away" but from what I can tell not anymore. We passed this out to students as one of them. 18Cs can't get the 60 series so this is the next best. I guess :confused: Ask your Post EOD units and you'll be surprised Charles of what they will "pass" out to you. Just have to ask. Join training is great too!! :lifter |
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I agree with your assessment 100%! No attempt to move this item should have been made and absolutely no attempt at a high-order detonation since civilians were in the area! While a low-order det with a Baldrick could have been attempted, the SAFEST method would have been a low-order det using a Vulcan Disrupter. A magnesium disk is shot into the explosive cavity at its weakest point. The disk begins a slow burn on the explosive fill. There would be a requirement to build a surround encompassing the target just in case there is an unintended high-order det. After the explosive fill is burned, a Baldrick could then be used to detonate the fuse of the device. We used this technique with great success in the Balkans. There are other ways to remove this item, but IMHO, this is the safest under peacetime conditions. BTW: Gladan, did you know your name means "hungry" in Serbian? |
:rolleyes:Sorry - duplicate post. I can't figure out how to delete it.
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