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NousDefionsDoc 03-18-2005 21:23
Ok, first of all everybody quit saying "fair" - there is no fair in business. Anymore than there is in combat.

Quote:
My concern is that this nation is not doing the things that keep us competitive and fear is that it is going to hurt us.
This I can agree with. We have to quit bitching about the Chinese and the EU and do what we can do here at home. US workers are simply not competitive on anything but quality. Look at California and all the problems they have with workman's comp etc. You've got the UAW kicking the Marines out of their parking lots and ruining the car industry. When I was roughnecking as a kid, the steel workers unionized themselves out of business, then came to Texas to work in the oilfield and tried to do the same thing (should have heard the toolpusher's answers to that one).

The old rules don't apply anymore and we've got to change them. When I was a kid, everybody's goal was to get on with a Exxon or Texaco, work until 65 and then enjoy retirement. Now you're lucky if you stay with the same company for 3 years. It has changed.

Are we still the world's inventers? I don't know anymore. Look at our school system. Instead of teaching the 3 Rs, we have teachers telling kids to protest and write hate letters to soldiers. And that's where it all starts. Go to anyone of these growing countries and you see their kids sitting at their desks like little soldiers - learning, competing. The Kid is in the 4th grade and is already into Algebra and Calculas, computers, etc. He has already passed my ability to help him in two or three subjects. Are US kids in public schools the same way? I don't see the results of that in the teens when I go up there.

In Texas, I see a lot of people drawing unemployment, bitching about SS and complaining the Mexicans are taking their jobs. I don't see a lot of people working and going to school at night. Just my impression.

Our jobs aren't running to China or India, we're air mailing them on a silver platter.

As far as the globalization goes, the last time globalization was stopped was in the 1930s. Our isolationism contributed greatly to it IMO - and we got the great depression out of it. When we make the rules - everybody seems to do ok. we made the rules after WWII - and we got a Cold War instead of a hot one for it. When we don't make the rules, when we don't step up to the plate - like after the USSR fell and Clinton let us flounder around with chaos theory - things go to shit.

We are the only superpower in the world right now. We have the only Navy capable of prohjecting any real power, our military is incredibly efficient, our economy has bounced back failry well from the busted tech bubble and 9-11. We need to step up, decide what the new rules are going to be, and sell it to the rest of the world - or at least those parts of it that we can. It matters little if we play "fair" and everybody else doesn't. We are the ones that suffer, so we are the ones that have to fix it. When the US doesn't take the lead, the world gets in trouble - whether they admit it or not.

The Reaper 03-18-2005 21:25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenhat
It's business. You train others to do your job so you can move up into another function.
That appears to me to be an oversimplification.

The heavy industrial base of this country is evaporating virtually overnight.

I live here in NC with a bunch of displaced textile and furniture workers whose families have worked the mills for 5 generations.

Thus far, opportunities for them to "move up" have been pretty slim, unless clerking the late night shift at the Stop and Rob or pushing burgers for a high school junior manager strike you as a "move up".

You really have to be here to see it, it is a tragedy.

Thanks, Slick Willie for MFN for China!

TR

brownapple 03-18-2005 21:31
Their responsibility to prepare themselves to move up, TR. Fact is that textiles have been steadily leaving the US because they are not viable in the US. The textile industry tried all sorts of ways to get people to pay the higher prices required of US labor (remember the ad campaigns about looking for the union label) and none were adequate. An insufficient portion of the market is impressed by where something is made unless they perceive it as having a direct effect on quality (as Oshkosh managed). Even then, with the improvement in quality from SE Asia, many of the quality focused brands have moved as well. The reality of competitiveness. Compete or you go out of business.

So what do you suggest those textile firms in NC should have done? Driven themselves to bankruptcy in order to keep those people you are concerned with in jobs for an extra six months or year?

brownapple 03-18-2005 21:45
Quote:
Originally Posted by NousDefionsDoc
Ok, first of all everybody quit saying "fair" - there is no fair in business. Anymore than there is in combat.


This I can agree with. We have to quit bitching about the Chinese and the EU and do what we can do here at home. US workers are simply not competitive on anything but quality. Look at California and all the problems they have with workman's comp etc. You've got the UAW kicking the Marines out of their parking lots and ruining the car industry. When I was roughnecking as a kid, the steel workers unionized themselves out of business, then came to Texas to work in the oilfield and tried to do the same thing (should have heard the toolpusher's answers to that one).

The old rules don't apply anymore and we've got to change them. When I was a kid, everybody's goal was to get on with a Exxon or Texaco, work until 65 and then enjoy retirement. Now you're lucky if you stay with the same company for 3 years. It has changed.

Are we still the world's inventers? I don't know anymore. Look at our school system. Instead of teaching the 3 Rs, we have teachers telling kids to protest and write hate letters to soldiers. And that's where it all starts. Go to anyone of these growing countries and you see their kids sitting at their desks like little soldiers - learning, competing. The Kid is in the 4th grade and is already into Algebra and Calculas, computers, etc. He has already passed my ability to help him in two or three subjects. Are US kids in public schools the same way? I don't see the results of that in the teens when I go up there.

In Texas, I see a lot of people drawing unemployment, bitching about SS and complaining the Mexicans are taking their jobs. I don't see a lot of people working and going to school at night. Just my impression.

Our jobs aren't running to China or India, we're air mailing them on a silver platter.

As far as the globalization goes, the last time globalization was stopped was in the 1930s. Our isolationism contributed greatly to it IMO - and we got the great depression out of it. When we make the rules - everybody seems to do ok. we made the rules after WWII - and we got a Cold War instead of a hot one for it. When we don't make the rules, when we don't step up to the plate - like after the USSR fell and Clinton let us flounder around with chaos theory - things go to shit.

We are the only superpower in the world right now. We have the only Navy capable of prohjecting any real power, our military is incredibly efficient, our economy has bounced back failry well from the busted tech bubble and 9-11. We need to step up, decide what the new rules are going to be, and sell it to the rest of the world - or at least those parts of it that we can. It matters little if we play "fair" and everybody else doesn't. We are the ones that suffer, so we are the ones that have to fix it. When the US doesn't take the lead, the world gets in trouble - whether they admit it or not.
Very well said, NDD

The Reaper 03-18-2005 21:52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenhat
Their responsibility to prepare themselves to move up, TR. Fact is that textiles have been steadily leaving the US because they are not viable in the US. The textile industry tried all sorts of ways to get people to pay the higher prices required of US labor (remember the ad campaigns about looking for the union label) and none were adequate. An insufficient portion of the market is impressed by where something is made unless they perceive it as having a direct effect on quality (as Oshkosh managed). Even then, with the improvement in quality from SE Asia, many of the quality focused brands have moved as well. The reality of competitiveness. Compete or you go out of business.

So what do you suggest those textile firms in NC should have done? Driven themselves to bankruptcy in order to keep those people you are concerned with in jobs for an extra six months or year?
Sure.

Fuck 'em.

Its just business, right? And they are just peons, anyway.

Lock the gates, ship the machines to China, and tell 'em to hit the bricks and "move up".

I would say that is pretty short-sighted planning.

How many Chinese do you think buy high-end furniture and designer sheets?

When they have moved enough jobs overseas and left enough Americans un-/underemployed, who is going to buy their wares?

TR

brownapple 03-18-2005 21:58
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Reaper
Sure.

Fuck 'em.

Its just business, right? And they are just peons, anyway.

Lock the gates, ship the machines to China, and tell 'em to hit the bricks and "move up".

I would say that is pretty short-sighted planning.

How many Chinese do you think buy high-end furniture and designer sheets?

When they have moved enough jobs overseas and left enough Americans un-/underemployed, who is going to buy their wares?

TR

Don't know about Chinese, but Thailand is the number 2 market in the world for Mercedes Benz sales (behind only Germany). This part of the world does buy high-end quality merchandize.

And you still haven't given a solution, just bitched about what you perceive as a problem. The textile industry has been moving out for over 30 years, first to Venezuala and other points south, then to Thailand, now to Vietnam and China.. it isn't like it is anything new.

vsvo 03-18-2005 22:04
Quote:
Originally Posted by NousDefionsDoc
....

We are the only superpower in the world right now. We have the only Navy capable of prohjecting any real power, our military is incredibly efficient, our economy has bounced back failry well from the busted tech bubble and 9-11. We need to step up, decide what the new rules are going to be, and sell it to the rest of the world - or at least those parts of it that we can. It matters little if we play "fair" and everybody else doesn't. We are the ones that suffer, so we are the ones that have to fix it. When the US doesn't take the lead, the world gets in trouble - whether they admit it or not.
Excellent points NDD. I agree. The dollar is still king, and the US economy is too important to a significant chunk of the world.

NousDefionsDoc 03-18-2005 22:14
Check this out:

"But as we have seen with Al Qaeda, there are also groups of individuals within societies that reject the notion that their "homeland" (read caliphate) should join this larger community of states that define globalization's Functioning Core. They fear that by joining this modern - or "Western' - system of rules, their tradional society will be forever damaged and ultimately perverted. (Pentagon's New Map T.P.M Barnett, G.P. Putnam's Sons 2004.) (parenthesis mine).

The thinking is that they need to keep the population disconnected to maintain control. The mullahs are a prime example in my opinion. Connected implies educated or informed. The mullahs, especially those illiterate backwoods bastards running the madrasas in the villes, need to keep the gen pop ignorant to maintain their status. Look at the damage educated women are doing to them now. That has to be their worst nightmare and explains a lot about the practical reasons for keeping them down - the teachings of the Qur'an aside.

I don't see this as much different than the communists did with their populations. Keep them in the dark and they won't know what they're missing out on. This is what I'm talking about with engaging. And we can learn some things from them too.

I remember back when the Japanese were buying up car plants and property in the US. Everybody said we'd all be speaking Japanese in a few years. Well, what happened? Their shit fell through the cracks, just like everybody elses does when they grow too fast and they don't change the rules to meet the new situation. They didn't play fair with us either, remember that? They don't seem to be in the news much anymore as far as "taking over the US".

Watch what happens to the Chinese with this outrageous growth.

NousDefionsDoc 03-18-2005 22:19
Because of the economic rhetoric associated with it, I also think the term "globalization" may have out lived its usefulnees and may in fact be counter-productive.

I don't have an alternative to offer.

brownapple 03-18-2005 22:21
Quote:
Originally Posted by NousDefionsDoc
Check this out:

"But as we have seen with Al Qaeda, there are also groups of individuals within societies that reject the notion that their "homeland" (read caliphate) should join this larger community of states that define globalization's Functioning Core. They fear that by joining this modern - or "Western' - system of rules, their tradional society will be forever damaged and ultimately perverted. (Pentagon's New Map T.P.M Barnett, G.P. Putnam's Sons 2004.) (parenthesis mine).

The thinking is that they need to keep the population disconnected to maintain control. The mullahs are a prime example in my opinion. Connected implies educated or informed. The mullahs, especially those illiterate backwoods bastards running the madrasas in the villes, need to keep the gen pop ignorant to maintain their status. Look at the damage educated women are doing to them now. That has to be their worst nightmare and explains a lot about the practical reasons for keeping them down - the teachings of the Qur'an aside.

I don't see this as much different than the communists did with their populations. Keep them in the dark and they won't know what they're missing out on. This is what I'm talking about with engaging. And we can learn some things from them too.

I remember back when the Japanese were buying up car plants and property in the US. Everybody said we'd all be speaking Japanese in a few years. Well, what happened? Their shit fell through the cracks, just like everybody elses does when they grow too fast and they don't change the rules to meet the new situation. They didn't play fair with us either, remember that? They don't seem to be in the news much anymore as far as "taking over the US".

Watch what happens to the Chinese with this outrageous growth.
Bingo.

And that also is why nations like Indonesia and Malaysia are progressive overall. They are exposed to the benefits of globalization. They are taking advantage of it. They are engaged and moving forward. And only a small % of them wants to go back to the "good old days".

Huey14 03-19-2005 00:21
Well, I'm still going to learn Chinese regardless of if they start getting smaller.

NDD, the discussion has evolved, would you like me to still answer your question to me?

Bill Harsey 03-19-2005 07:47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenhat
It's business. You train others to do your job so you can move up into another function.
Greenhat, You'd make a good modern business manager.

Here is the problem, you can't put your entire workforce into white collar management positions who then manage the jobs and product being produced overseas which in turn is then imported back home to sell to themselves

NousDefionsDoc 03-19-2005 08:07
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Harsey
Greenhat, You'd make a good modern business manager.

Here is the problem, you can't put your entire workforce into white collar management positions who then manage the jobs and product being produced overseas which in turn is then imported back home to sell to themselves
I don't see it as moving "up" so much as doing something different. Reaper's example of 5 generations in a textile mill is a good one. Yes, it is a shame that a family tradition cannot be carried on. But nothing lasts forever. Like the man said, "No future is inevitable." What did the generation before do? How many of you do what your fathers or grandfathers did? I certainly do not. The trick is knowing when to move on.

If you insist on a trade simply because your father did it, yet there are no customers for your product - you will likely not be successful. The world changes faster now than it did before. Because of connectivity. Where a family might have had a business 5 generations before and then be forced to change, it might only last one or two now.

I was 35 before I owned my first computer and I spent 20 years learning what little Spanish I know. The Kid is 10 and is completely bi-lingual and more computer savy than I am. Will he be a cowboy, rice farmer? Know how to weld and fix a tractor and castrate a hog and brand a calf? Probably not. Will he be a soldier? Could be - conflict is a constant. He will not have the skills I had, but I will make sure he has skills.

Modernization, industrialization, computerization, etc. - all of them changed the way we live and work. We have adapted in the past and my bet is we will continue to do so.

Huey - of course.

Bill Harsey 03-19-2005 08:22
What happens to a country when they no longer provide their own natural resources or do their own manufacturing?

Martin 03-19-2005 08:36
Quote:
Originally Posted by NousDefionsDoc
Watch what happens to the Chinese with this outrageous growth.
I've had that thought too, but what I keep thinking is that even if they don't work at top efficiency and quality, which will improve with the success they have and is acquiring, giving them both experience and a raw strength because of their size and others' dependance on them. Imagine a big Japan with much more export - something Japan lacks in.

That text I sent you is pretty interesting in this context, btw.


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