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GratefulCitizen 02-18-2012 21:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by SF18C (Post 435633)
How much freedom can you tolerate?

It's amazing how many people, through their actions, demonstrate that they don't really want freedom.
They consistently make private choices (not counting voting) which limit their own freedom.

I don't think they want freedom because freedom means responsibility for results.
It's psychologically easier for them to blame another for results than take responsibility for themselves.

tom kelly 02-18-2012 22:26

The Candidates?
 
All of the candidates running for elected office are LIERS. They will tell you want to hear & then they will vote or do what is best for them. You want change? I doubt we will ever get it...TK

SF18C 02-18-2012 22:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by GratefulCitizen (Post 435635)

I don't think they want freedom because freedom means responsibility for results.

And that is the part that is dragging down parts of this country.

Paslode 02-19-2012 09:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sigaba (Post 435524)
Not withstanding my, ah, skepticism of Representative Paul's political views and policy preferences, he does not demonstrate the skill set of an effective parliamentarian.

Of the last forty eight bills he's sponsored, only four had ten or more co-sponsors (10, 10, 33, and 210), while thirty-one had zero co-sponsors. None of these bills have made it out of committee.

The country needs a president who can get things done, not just talk about what should be done. Mr. Paul, much like the current president, has focused on the latter at the expense of demonstrating he can do the former.


The current POTUS isn't just talking, he is getting things done, he may not have accomplished as much as he would like to have, but is getting things done and if he gets a second term he will get more done.

Bush the Younger got things done and so did Clinton. So in my mind getting things done isn't the problem, the problem is what they are getting done and who is benefiting.


I have my reservations about Mr. Paul, but wonder if his lack of co-sponsors has more to do with not towing the party line than it does his abilities.


Quote:

Originally Posted by tom kelly (Post 435639)
All of the candidates running for elected office are LIERS. They will tell you want to hear & then they will vote or do what is best for them. You want change? I doubt we will ever get it...TK


True. And a lot of people believe whatever they are told. There is another group that votes for their team whether by party, race, etc.

Though I find more and more people stating they are voting for the lesser of 2 evils.


And little will change until we change our voting habits.

cjwils3 02-21-2012 15:43

I could certainly be wrong, but after hearing of Rick Santorum's Satan comments that he made back in '08 and some other recent iffy remarks, I am really beginning to question his electability. Judging by the polls, that would basically leave Romney as the sole remaining candidate with any chance to beat Obama (and that may be a stretch based on his failure to incite enthusiasm even within his own party). A brokered convention may be a drastic measure (Karl Rove calls it "as remote as life on Pluto"), but with how things are going at this point, it could end up being the GOP's only hope of denying the President a second term in office.

However, the problem with that course of action is that both Gov. Mitch Daniels and Gov. Chris Christie, the two consistently mentioned alternatives, have remained adamant in their refusal to enter the race. The only other two options that immediately come to mind are Jeb Bush and Sarah Palin. Bush seems like a long shot at this point (and besides, I question how keen the American electorate would be on voting for another Bush), and Palin has enough baggage of her own. What does everyone else think?

GratefulCitizen 02-21-2012 17:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paslode (Post 435674)
And little will change until we change our voting habits.

While that part of the problem can't be ignored, it is a holding action, not a solution.

IMO, the solution is in influencing those few who are near us more deeply, rather than influencing many who are far from us superficially.
In time, those you influence will influence others.

Eventually, the effects of meaningful influence will win over the superficial.
The benefit for this type of influence will not be felt in our time, but will be felt by our posterity.

Paslode 02-21-2012 19:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by GratefulCitizen (Post 435951)
While that part of the problem can't be ignored, it is a holding action, not a solution.

IMO, the solution is in influencing those few who are near us more deeply, rather than influencing many who are far from us superficially.
In time, those you influence will influence others.

Eventually, the effects of meaningful influence will win over the superficial.
The benefit for this type of influence will not be felt in our time, but will be felt by our posterity.




At present that is a long, long road. We might reach a point in a generation or two where 3 ring circuses and our quad yearly procession of Professor Harold Hills is usurped by common sense....and that's not taking into consideration that the power brokers are going to fight it tooth and nail every step of the way, or the possibility that it all turns to dust.

Sigaba 02-21-2012 20:27

Quote:

[T]he solution is in influencing those few who are near us more deeply, rather than influencing many who are far from us superficially.
This approach to politics sure worked out pretty well for America in the mid-nineteenth century.

Not for nothing did James Madison warn of the perils of interests that centered around one or two key characteristics. Source is here.
Quote:

Extend the sphere, and you take in a greater variety of parties and interests; you make it less probable that a majority of the whole will have a common motive to invade the rights of other citizens; or if such a common motive exists, it will be more difficult for all who feel it to discover their own strength, and to act in unison with each other. Besides other impediments, it may be remarked that, where there is a consciousness of unjust or dishonorable purposes, communication is always checked by distrust in proportion to the number whose concurrence is necessary.

Hence, it clearly appears, that the same advantage which a republic has over a democracy, in controlling the effects of faction, is enjoyed by a large over a small republic, -- is enjoyed by the Union over the States composing it. Does the advantage consist in the substitution of representatives whose enlightened views and virtuous sentiments render them superior to local prejudices and schemes of injustice? It will not be denied that the representation of the Union will be most likely to possess these requisite endowments. Does it consist in the greater security afforded by a greater variety of parties, against the event of any one party being able to outnumber and oppress the rest? In an equal degree does the increased variety of parties comprised within the Union, increase this security. Does it, in fine, consist in the greater obstacles opposed to the concert and accomplishment of the secret wishes of an unjust and interested majority? Here, again, the extent of the Union gives it the most palpable advantage.

The influence of factious leaders may kindle a flame within their particular States, but will be unable to spread a general conflagration through the other States. A religious sect may degenerate into a political faction in a part of the Confederacy; but the variety of sects dispersed over the entire face of it must secure the national councils against any danger from that source. A rage for paper money, for an abolition of debts, for an equal division of property, or for any other improper or wicked project, will be less apt to pervade the whole body of the Union than a particular member of it; in the same proportion as such a malady is more likely to taint a particular county or district, than an entire State.

In the extent and proper structure of the Union, therefore, we behold a republican remedy for the diseases most incident to republican government. And according to the degree of pleasure and pride we feel in being republicans, ought to be our zeal in cherishing the spirit and supporting the character of Federalists.

Roguish Lawyer 02-21-2012 20:46

Sigaba? Quoting Fed #10? Very nice! :)

Paslode 02-21-2012 21:29

Quote:

A rage for paper money, for an abolition of debts, for an equal division of property, or for any other improper or wicked project.
Amazing!!! Madison could be speaking in the present day.

Don 02-22-2012 04:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by cjwils3 (Post 435934)
I could certainly be wrong, but after hearing of Rick Santorum's Satan comments that he made back in '08 and some other recent iffy remarks, I am really beginning to question his electability. Judging by the polls, that would basically leave Romney as the sole remaining candidate with any chance to beat Obama (and that may be a stretch based on his failure to incite enthusiasm even within his own party). A brokered convention may be a drastic measure (Karl Rove calls it "as remote as life on Pluto"), but with how things are going at this point, it could end up being the GOP's only hope of denying the President a second term in office.

...and so we are left the choice as a Nation, Religion or Socialism...and given the two choices, Socialism is going to win? The media pounds away at the religion of every president (or presidential candidate) as if it was a bad thing. It is a non-issue. If people don’t get their heads out of their collective asses and realize that RELIGION is not the terminal illness affecting this country, then we truly are on the downhill slide.

When was the last time a President tried to have a law passed mandating people have a religion? Name the last “Faith Based Initiative” passed by a President. I can’t think of one off the top of my head, and I am not even going to take the time to Google it right now since I am on this rant. But as an exercise, if you have a minute, see if you can find one and compare that with the Patriot Act and/or Healthcare Reform. The media continues to promote these little petty battles over non-issues, and it is lapped up.

Paslode 02-22-2012 09:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don (Post 436000)
...and so we are left the choice as a Nation, Religion or Socialism...and given the two choices, Socialism is going to win? The media pounds away at the religion of every president (or presidential candidate) as if it was a bad thing. It is a non-issue. If people don’t get their heads out of their collective asses and realize that RELIGION is not the terminal illness affecting this country, then we truly are on the downhill slide.

When was the last time a President tried to have a law passed mandating people have a religion? Name the last “Faith Based Initiative” passed by a President. I can’t think of one off the top of my head, and I am not even going to take the time to Google it right now since I am on this rant. But as an exercise, if you have a minute, see if you can find one and compare that with the Patriot Act and/or Healthcare Reform. The media continues to promote these little petty battles over non-issues, and it is lapped up.


That's a good point, and one I ponder as to why it is such an issue. I would go as far as saying that considering that one of the pinnacles of America is Freedom of Religion it is un-American to make it an issue.

Right at this moment we have an administration that is actively attempting strip the right of a religion from practicing it's beliefs. I not a Catholic and I don't like where that is headed. If the Cult of Obama succeeds in forcing this edict on abortion and contraception down the throats of Catholics who and what will be next.

That Healthcare mandate and the Administration behavior on the matter makes Santorums's Fire & Brimstone or Mitt's Mormonism quite trivial.


Quote:

"First They Came for the Jews"
By Pastor Niemoller

First they came for the Jews and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for the Communists and I did not speak out because I was not a Communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for me and there was no one left to speak out for me.

cjwils3 02-22-2012 09:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don (Post 436000)
...and so we are left the choice as a Nation, Religion or Socialism...and given the two choices, Socialism is going to win? The media pounds away at the religion of every president (or presidential candidate) as if it was a bad thing. It is a non-issue. If people don’t get their heads out of their collective asses and realize that RELIGION is not the terminal illness affecting this country, then we truly are on the downhill slide.

When was the last time a President tried to have a law passed mandating people have a religion? Name the last “Faith Based Initiative” passed by a President. I can’t think of one off the top of my head, and I am not even going to take the time to Google it right now since I am on this rant. But as an exercise, if you have a minute, see if you can find one and compare that with the Patriot Act and/or Healthcare Reform. The media continues to promote these little petty battles over non-issues, and it is lapped up.

I agree with you wholeheartedly, sir. As a Christian myself, I have absolutely no qualms whatsoever with the religious beliefs of Santorum, Romney, Obama, or any other politician for that matter. Some people, on the other hand, obviously do and insist (wrongly, in my opinion) that someone's religion can negatively impact their policy making. In the case of the Catholic Santorum, it would probably come from his acceptance of Church teaching regarding contraception, which many of the electorate would likely take exception towards. I suspect the Democrats and the media will both try to use that against him if he wins the nomination.

A person's religious views are ultimately their business, but that should not ever exclude them from the public sphere.

Pete 02-22-2012 09:34

Some say Liberalism..............
 
....................................is a religion.

Heritics are delt with harshly.

Don 02-22-2012 10:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by cjwils3 (Post 436023)
I agree with you wholeheartedly, sir. As a Christian myself, I have absolutely no qualms whatsoever with the religious beliefs of Santorum, Romney, Obama, or any other politician for that matter. Some people, on the other hand, obviously do and insist (wrongly, in my opinion) that someone's religion can negatively impact their policy making. In the case of the Catholic Santorum, it would probably come from his acceptance of Church teaching regarding contraception, which many of the electorate would likely take exception towards. I suspect the Democrats and the media will both try to use that against him if he wins the nomination.

A person's religious views are ultimately their business, but that should not ever exclude them from the public sphere.

...and those people are the ones that control the message, which means you get to make your mind up based on whatever stories the media chooses to transmit. I would like to hear more about repealing obamacare, income tax reform, getting the economy moving, and entitlement reduction.


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