Professional Soldiers ® - Air France Jet disappears from radar

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Quote:

Originally Posted by glebo (Post 269230)

Source: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,525835,00.html

A lady who missed the Air France flight was killed in a car accident, her husband is seriously injured.

Kinda reminds ya of that movie when those kids missed their flight and the "reaper" was out to get them....eeek:eek:

Yeah, "Final Destination" I think it was. Weird.

Quote:

A llady who missed the Air France flight was killed in a car accident, her husband is seriously injured.

Kinda reminds ya of that movie when those klids missed their flight and the "reaper" was out to get them....eeek:eek:

Or - for the tinfoil hat crowd - they were 'silenced' by the perpetrators of this 'accident' ( :rolleyes: )to keep them from identifying the group responsible. Anybody checked the enquiring blogs or Snopes lately? I'm sure it's only a matter of time. :rolleyes:

Richard's $.02 :munchin

Quote:

Originally Posted by PSM (Post 268872)

The Europeans do not have licensed dispatchers so the decision rests with the captain. I'm not sure if a relief captain can overrule an originating captain. I would guess that he could.

According to the crew list, there was only one Captain with 2 FOs. One of the FOs wife was on board as well.

Pat

Latest on the Air France loss.

Richard's $.02 :munchin

Quote:

Air France jet had rudder problem; still no cause in crash
USA Today, 14 Jun 2009

<snip> So far, there is no evidence of an explosion or terrorist act, just clues that point to systemic failures on the plane. Experts have said the evidence uncovered so far points to at least a partial midair breakup of the Airbus A330. <snip>

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2...hooModule_News

My 2 cents would be a cascade that would start minor, and in rough weather, begin to trip other "minor" problems. From this cascade, catastrophic would occur. Worked with McDonnell Douglas back in 66-67 before I joined (My father got me in and was upset when I went Army). Saw how a minor glitch became serious while the pilot was involved in the developing cascade of trivia. It happens slow then escalates beyond the pilots control very rapidly.

Again my 2 cents.

Here's an interesting development.

Richard's $.02 :munchin

Quote:

NTSB Focuses On Two A330 Jet Incidents
Alan Levin, USA TODAY, 25 Jun 2009

U.S. aviation accident investigators have launched probes into two recent incidents aboard Airbus A330 jets that appear to have similarities to the failures reported on the Air France jet that disappeared over the Atlantic Ocean on June 1.

The National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) said Thursday it is looking into incidents on Northwest Airlines and Brazil's TAM Airlines in which pilots on the long-range, wide body jet received apparently erroneous airspeed and altitude data.

The investigation into the disappearance of Air France Flight 447, an A330 with 228 people aboard, has focused on the apparent failures of air pressure sensors that measure a jet's speed. The sensors are known as Pitot tubes. Data messages sent from the jet to an Air France maintenance computer indicated that the sensors failed minutes before the plane went down.

The failure of external air pressure sensors occur relatively frequently on all types of aircraft without serious consequences, according to federal aviation data bases. However, the failures can lead to critical problems if pilots do not respond properly and such failures have been linked to at least four fatal crashes around the world.

The NTSB, which is assisting French investigators in the Air France investigation, said it is looking into a Northwest flight from Hong Kong to Tokyo on Tuesday during which apparent similar failures occurred. The NTSB is collecting flight recorders, maintenance data, weather information and statements from the crew, the agency said. The flight landed safely in Tokyo.

In another incident on May 21, TAM Flight 8091 from Miami to São Paulo lost speed and altitude information in the cockpit, the NTSB said.

The crew noticed a rapid drop in outside temperature while cruising, followed by several abrupt failures. The autopilot and throttle controls disconnected and the crew lost speed and altitude information, the NTSB said.

The crew was able to fly the plane using backup instruments. Speed and altitude information returned after about five minutes and the plane landed safely in São Paulo.

The incidents could shed light on the Air France investigation. Last year, Airbus advised airlines to replace Pitot tubes on A330s because they could provide erroneous readings in bad weather, but many airlines have not completed the switch.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washing...hooModule_News

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard (Post 271186)

Here's an interesting development.

Richard's $.02 :munchin

Fine and dandy, but there should be 3 independent pitot/static systems. One for the Capt., one for the F/O and a back-up. That said (and I've never worked with Airbus aircraft, just Boeing and McD), being a fly-by-wire A/C, if they feed the three sources into one computer (the real pilot) I can see this being a problem. But GPS also gives airspeed info to the living breathing pilot, I believe (I was retired before GPS).

Odd how they forget to mention the 60,000' thunderstorms in these reports.

The NTSB will not be invited to help investigate. EDIT: (I misread this so I guess were invited to help) "The NTSB, which is assisting French investigators in the Air France investigation".

Pat

French: Air France plane hit the sea belly first
By GREG KELLER and EMMA VANDORE, Associated Press Writers Greg Keller And Emma Vandore, Associated Press Writers 47 mins ago
LE BOURGET, France – An intact Air France Flight 447 slammed belly first into the Atlantic Ocean at a very high speed, a top French investigator said Thursday, adding that problems with the plane's speed sensors were not the direct cause of the crash.

Alain Bouillard, who is leading the investigation into the June 1 crash for the French accident agency BEA, says the speed sensors, called Pitot tubes, were "a factor but not the only one."

"It is an element but not the cause," Bouillard told a news conference in Le Bourget outside Paris. "Today we are very far from establishing the causes of the accident."

The Airbus A330-200 plane was carrying 228 people from Rio de Janeiro to Paris when it went down just after midnight in a remote area of the Atlantic, 930 miles (1,500 kilometers) off Brazil's mainland and far from radar coverage.

The BEA released its first preliminary findings on the crash Thursday, calling it one of history's most challenging plane crash investigations. Yet the probe, which has operated without access to the plane's flight data and voice recorders, appears to have unveiled little about what really caused the accident.

"Between the surface of the water and 35,000 feet, we don't know what happened," Bouillard admitted. "In the absence of the flight recorders, it is extremely difficult to draw conclusions."

Bouillard said the plane "was not destroyed in flight" and appeared to have hit "belly first," gathering speed as it dropped thousands of feet through the air.

He said investigators have found "neither traces of fire nor traces of explosives."

One of the automatic messages emitted by the Air France plane indicates it was receiving incorrect speed information from the external monitoring instruments, which could destabilize the plane's control systems. Experts have suggested those external instruments might have iced over.

The Pitots have not been "excluded form the chain that led to the accident," he said.

Kieran Daly, editor of Air Transport Intelligence, said although investigators seem to know very little about what happened due to "a horrendous lack of evidence" it was significant that the plane landed the right way up.

"It suggests they were in some kind of flight attitude," he said.

But he warned that "without finding the black boxes it's going to be phenomenally difficult, maybe impossible, to determine what happened."

Bouillard said life vests found among the wreckage were not inflated, suggesting that passengers were not prepared for a crash landing in the water. The pilots apparently also did not send any mayday calls.

He said there was "no information" suggesting a need to ground the world's fleet of more than 600 A330 planes as a result of the crash.

"As far as I'm concerned there's no problem flying these aircraft," he said.

A burst of automated messages emitted by the plane before it fell gave rescuers only a vague location to begin their search, which has failed to locate the plane's black boxes in the vast ocean expanse. The chances of finding the flight recorders are falling daily as the signals they emit fade. Without them, the full causes of the tragic accident may never be known.

The black boxes — which are in reality bright orange — are resting somewhere on an underwater mountain range filled with crevasses and rough, uneven terrain. Bouillard said the search for the plane's black boxes has been extended by 10 days through July 10.

The remote location, combined with the mystery of what happened to the plane — the pilots had either no time or no radio frequency to make a mayday call — makes the inquiry exceptionally challenging.

Bouillard said French investigators have yet to receive any information from Brazilian authorities about the results of the autopsies on the 51 bodies recovered from the site.

Families of the victims met with officials from BEA, Air France and the French transport ministry before the report was released Thursday. An association of families addressed a letter to the CEO of Air France, Pierre-Henri Gourgeon, demanding answers to several questions about the plane.

Investigators should have an easier time recovering debris and black boxes in the crash of a Yemeni Airbus 310 with 153 people on board that went down Tuesday just nine miles (14.5 kilometers) north of the Indian Ocean island-nation of Comoros.

___

Vandore reported from Paris. Associated Press writers Cecile Brisson at Le Bourget and Angela Charlton in Paris contributed to this report.

Air France fell for 3.5 minutes

38,000' in 3.5 minutes. Wow.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/americ...ex.html?hpt=T1

Quote:

Air France crash pilots lost vital speed data, say investigators
By Thair Shaikh, CNN
May 27, 2011 12:01 p.m. EDT

(CNN) -- Pilots of the Air France flight that crashed in 2009 and plummeted 38,000 ft in just three minutes and 30 seconds, lost vital speed data, France's Bureau of Investigation and Analysis (BEA) said Friday.

Pilots on the aircraft got conflicting air speeds in the minutes leading up to the crash, the interim reports states. The aircraft climbed to 38,000 ft when "the stall warning was triggered and the airplane stalled," the report says.

Aviation experts are asking why the pilots responded to the stall by pulling the nose up instead of pushing it down to recover.

Miles O'Brien, a pilot and aviation analyst, said: "You push down on the wheel to gain air speed, perhaps they (pilots) were getting information that the air speed was too high. Pulling the nose up will exacerbate an aerodynamic stall."

The speed displayed on the left primary flight display were "inconsistent" with those on the integrated standby instrument system (ISIS), the report says.

The aircraft experienced some "rolling" before stalling and then descending rapidly into the ocean. The descent lasted 3 minutes and 30 seconds and the engines remained operational, said the report. It plunged at 10,912 feet (3,300 meters) per minute.

At the time of the descent, the two co-pilots and captain were in the aircraft cockpit.

Richard Quest, CNN's aviation expert, said: "For whatever reason the aircraft speed sensors failed and the A330 went into a high altitude stall. The pilot's actions were unable to recover the aircraft and some might say, made the bad situation worse.

"The actual falling from the sky will have been horrific. This plane fell out of the sky."

All 228 people aboard the Airbus A330 Flight 447 from Rio de Janeiro to Paris were killed on June 1, 2009.

The pilots lost contact with air traffic controllers while flying across an area of the Atlantic Ocean known for constant bands of severe turbulence.

Air crash investigators at the Paris-based BEA have been working on the theory that the speed sensors, known as pitot tubes or probes, malfunctioned because of ice at high altitude.

Since the accident, Air France has replaced the pitots on its Airbus fleet with a newer model.

The report quotes some of the pilot's conversation -- who were not named -- and reveals that they were aware of the upcoming turbulence and storm.

Four hours and six minutes into the flight, one of the co-pilots, referred to as PF, called the cabin crew, telling them that: "In two minutes we should enter an area where it'll move about a bit more than at the moment, you should watch out... I'll call you back as soon as we're out of it."
The actual falling from the sky will have been horrific. This plane fell out of the sky
--Richard Quest, CNN's aviation expert

The report said that four hours and 10 minutes into the flight: "The autopilot [and] then [the] auto-thrust disengaged," and co-pilot PF said: "I have the controls." The report said the stall warning sounded twice in a row.

A short time later the other co-pilot, referred to as PNF said: "So, we've lost the speeds." A second later the stall warnings sounded again the report said.

At about this time, "The speed displayed on the left side increased sharply," the report said. The aircraft was then at an altitude of about 37,500 ft.

The report said that at this time co-pilot PNF tried several times to call the captain back to the cockpit.

The aircraft then climbed to 38,000 ft and at around four hours 11 minutes and 40 seconds into the flight, the captain re-entered the cockpit. During the following seconds all of the recorded speeds became invalid and the stall warning stopped, the report said.

Co-pilot PF said: "I don't have any more indications," and the co-pilot PNF said "we have no valid indications."

About a minute later co-pilot the PF said: "We're going to arrive at level one hundred." This is a height of 10,000ft. About fifteen seconds later, the data recorder indicate "simultaneous inputs by both pilots on the sidesticks."

The recordings stopped at four hours 14 minutes and 28 seconds into the flight. A full investigation into the crash is expected next year.

Airbus, manufacturers of the A330, said: "The BEA's work constitutes a significant step towards the identification of the complete chain of events that led to the tragic accident. Airbus is committed to continuing to provide support to the BEA investigation with the objective of identifying all potential lessons to be learnt," according to the Press Association.

Earlier this week French air crash investigators said they would be able to identify two bodies recovered this month from the crash site. The recovery team is now working on retrieving all the bodies, French officials have said.

In early May search teams found the crucial "data recorders" from the wreck site, estimated to lie at a depth of between 2,000 to 4,000 meters (6,562 to 13,124 feet).