1. Why do you think that is? I think it's a direct result of social conditioning and prohibitive self defense laws. I think our society relies too heavily on laws and law enforcement for our protection.

2. How much more would it scare the terrorists? I understand the pressurization problem, but they would have a dandy of a time pulling off another 9/11

3. I agree that security professionals (be they LEO or private) have a very hard job, but at the same time, I think the intention of making the job easier has fostered an environment of easy prey i.e. people with no means of self defense whose safety depends on an ever dwindling number of individuals that are not required to protect them anyways.

And yes, I did ask for it... :D

--Aric

1. Kitty Genovese 1964. 38 witnesses to her homicide, not a single person came to her aid.

2. Law enforcement 2005 starting pay 48,000 a year ,extreme shortage of officers and very small number of applicants.

3. Military fails to meet recruitment goals for the past 7 months.

Does not support the belief that there are citizens (in great enough numbers) to volunteer to be vigilant in the face of a threat or an attack. Heck the majority of the professionals are not willing to commit time and effort in learning self defense tactics.....and it is their job!

To many Neville Chamberlain personas and far too few Winston Churchill's today.

And that sir is why each time a soldier or cop is killed we should be mindful of what a tremendous loss it is to our nation. Because that individual we lost is a member of a shrinking class. A courageous class of citizens that feel that service to country is noble and compulsory regardless of risk or sacrifice.

Citizens with nail clippers, hat pins, and derringers.......don't need them or want them. I just want a couple kids on my flight that have served their country. Unarmed they will give me a better chance of surviving any attempted terrorist attack!

1. Perhaps that event is so well known because it is so unusual... You can look at it two ways, there aren't any famous reports about vigilant citizens protecting the innocent because it doesn't happen, or because it's not "newsworthy". I think the latter.

2.I'm not going to volunteer for law enforcement, but that doesn't necessarily mean that I wouldn't try to help in a crisis situation...

3.Just because someone isn't willing to put in the sacrifice of joining the military doesn't mean they wouldn't do their part in a local situation...
No, there aren't very many out there. And I think that this is due to social conditioning and a removal of liberty, that gives each private citizen (non-LEO, non-military) the idea that to stay out of the way and let the professionals handle it is the safest solution. Doesn't always work that way. See: Kitty Genovese 1964
Couldn't agree more...
Amen...
I once thought that way too. I used to have zero faith in "the video game generation". However, after seeing these men and women stand up and accomplish what they have in the GWOT (or conflict formerly known as GWOT ;) ), I think that this class may not be so few or dwindling as before. I think there is still hope.
Because of their social conditioning... (i.e. their experience with the military)
I submit that if this country grew a backbone and (through the public schools and other government programs) started focusing more on the core values that this country was built on as opposed to all of the PC victimhood crap, there would be no need for your preference.

Counterpoint? :)

Respectfully,
Aric

Dark gray clouds overhead does not mean it is going to storm.....



You just contradicted your initial premise.........a plane full of well armed angry citizens. You have conceded the point!

Stay out of the way?........they didn't even call the police! And in this case that is why it did not work!



I never said I had zero faith in your generation.

Exactly what I was talking about! These are the individuals that have placed service to country above all else. The exception not the rule.

Thank you for again conceding a point. The military experience produces the type of vigilant citizen you seek or believe is anxiously waiting for that challenging moment to prove they are not afflicted with the "Bystander Syndrome" studied extensively since the Genovese Case.

The Bystander Syndrome is a recognized phenomenon as is the Stockholm syndrome. Read up on both of these.....it might give you a different perspective on what the significance of the Genovese case is all about. Has nothing to do with newsworthy!

........through public schools and government programs...
You mean like military service or attending a military academy! You do not need to reinvent the wheel. That which you seek is already there. The only thing lacking is the people walking up to the door.

I would respectfully submit that public schools and government programs (and the bureaucrats who run them) are among the root causes of our current dilemma. That's where true "social conditioning" takes place. The spirit that conquered (really "BAD" word) a continent and put men on the Moon has been villified and denigrated for the last 50 years - to the point that self determination, sacrifice, personal responsibility, and initiative are discouraged in the mindless masses. It's hard to control sheeple when they persist in thinking for themselves. The individuals joining the military - or anything else related to high-risk public service are the exception to the norms. My .02 - Peregrino

It occurs to me that the number of hours per day and days per year, times the years in school, equals more hours than parents are able to dedicate to counter the PC socialist agenda of the NEA which is pounded into impressionable minds in this country daily. There are some good teachers out there, but most are under a bureaucratic regime bent on their own personal agendas as well.

In fact, time in school probably constitutes a lot more hours than most POWs are exposed to before they begin to break.

Teach your kids to think for themselves.

TR

I agree. That's why the public schools would need to be included in the process of changing the social conditioning of our citizens.

Regards,
Aric

"Not many" doesn't mean "not any". I do not concede! :D
Whether every passenger on the plane has a weapon or not, to a terrorist, every passenger would have to be considered armed as there would be no telling who was and who wasn't.

Conceded. However, calling the police is not and cannot be the end all/be all of safety in our society. (At the risk of bringing the local legal experts into this discussion...) Check out this link: http://home.pacbell.net/dragon13/policeprot.html

Whether required to or not, I believe that every good LEO believes in the "serve and protect" ideal and wants to make sure his/her community is a safe place. However, believing and doing are two different things. Cops can't be everywhere at once, and can't stop all bad things from happening.

Sorry for mischaracterizing your view. I misunderstood.

It's not about service to country. It's about having the ability to defend yourself in the case of a terrorist attack.

Yes, the military does produce that type of people. However, I believe they don't have the corner on the market.
I will read up on Bystander Syndrome. I argued "newsworthy" because you came up with a very famous example of why private citizens can't be relied upon to protect their own. My point was that I think there are many other cases where they can and have been relied upon due to absence of police protection. I would argue that most of these instances don't get reported. A famous example however, is flight 93 on 9/11.
No, you don't have to reinvent the wheel. I think if we were to allow weapons on board airplanes or buses or subways or in public places in general, it would discourage crime, and discourage terrorism.

However, in order for this to be a realistic proposal, we would need to reinvent the wheel. With our current society, this idea would never get past anything more formal than this forum. No government official would go near it with a ten foot pole for fear of annoying the petrified populous. No, today's strategy to keep terrorism out is to lock down the populous through knee-jerk security measures that only make people feel safer and don't necessarily make sense.

If we reengineered the process by which our citizens are raised however, I think that this idea would "fly" so to speak and our society would come out the better for it.

Regards,
Aric

Not to get the discussion off track, but a note:

The Air Force and the Navy are turning people away.

There are also folks going Blue to Green. http://www.goarmy.com/btg/index.jsp

Our local Army recruiter told me last week that "business was picking up again."

It seems to go in cycles.

Military was the wrong term to use in my earlier text.

Regarding the Blue to Green:
"Stars and Stripes" Mideast edition June 29, 2005;
375 airmen and sailors have used the program. I would call this insignificant!

My concern is for the "boots on the ground" not the Air Force and Navy. In my lay persons view the Army and Marines close proximity to battle is in direct correlation to their recruiting woes.

Those in the know, (read Pentagon) submitted the "Urgent Wartime Support Initiative" to congress on July 19,2005 to address the very issue I was referring to in my earlier post. In this initiative they have asked for Increasing enlistment bonuses up to $40,000, Raising the recruitment age to 42, and increases in Special Duty pay ect.

The fact that the Air Force and Navy are turning people away is a result of those two branches exceeding their authorized strength. I assume their authorized strength is proportional to their role in the GWOT, which has diminished since the fall of Saddam Hussein.



Respectfully!

[

JBOUR13, would you please use that shotgun to fill his sit upon with some lead! :p

Bring it Jbour... My plane full of armed and angry passengers are ready to depressurize this whole discussion and send us all down in flames! :p

--Aric (taking cover behind my admittedly outlandish position...) :D

I'll have to reserve myself to sitting and watching, aricbcool has already pointed out that he's willing to die for his cause (Martyrdom on this forum is frowned upon you know :rolleyes: ) and I'll remain idle on the tarmac as his pressurized tube with wings crashes and burns.

aricbcool....sounds to me like you have a cult of sorts. Anything we should know about? :D

In very short order the Brits have all of the suspected bombers in custody as well as others. I think I can return to my original premise. There are probably many reasons for this but I feel that they must still have a very extensive, and secret, internal intelligence network in the UK. We used to but Jummy Carter scraped it because it wasn't polite to look into others windows. This is something that takes a generation to become effective.

I am sure the British citizens are also less apothetic than we. Yesterday the police raided an entire neighborhood. Could you imagine that taking place in the U.S.?

James Bond and Q live!! :lifter

Sadly, it's only a cult if you have followers... :( ;)

For now, I shall remain Devil's Advocate to sensible, well reasoned men with more experience protecting people than I. :)

Regards,
Aric