Symbols ?
 

Yesterday is History,
Tomorrow is a Mystery,
Today is a gift, That's why its called The Present,
Live and Savor every minute; because

THIS AIN'T NO DRESS REHEARSAL.....TK

My $.02
 

Perhaps in an alternate universe or if you live in a bubble. The power of symbols and perception in human society is a constant, for better or worse all of us are under constant scrutiny, with ramifications for our words and actions. I'm all for individuality, personal expression etc, but think this through. Consider a guy who flys a NAMBLA flag from his deck because he likes the colors, and wonders why his house keeps getting egged.

This type of logic turns into a slippery slope pretty quick, in theory these Marines could display a flag with UBL's visage on it, after all to some idiots UBL was "a rugged individualist who defied an empire." Better yet consider the coconut walking around Ft. Hood with a " Free Hassan" t-shirt, citing his admiration for religious conviction. Ramifications? The majority of people on this planet see the Nazi's as examples of pure evil, uniformed members of the US military should not be stirring up these perceptions of association with Nazi heraldry regardless of their intent.

I live next to MCBH and work on base, and from what I've observed me the snipers here kind of try to be controversial. From guys walking around with tons of tattoos of various tough guy cliches to various of tasteless insignias on their shirts they aren't afraid to SHOW it. But they've earned that right, and it helps their morale. When you actually talk to them they are really nice, and pretty humble.

I'm sorry, but the SS runes show no identification with the actual "martial capabilities" etc of the WWII war machine. The SS were a paramilitary that violated every rule in the book. You respect German snipers of WWII? Cool, there were many honorable units that didn't rampantly slaughter people in mass reprisal. Some of these men exhibited great moral courage in facing down both pressure from their own government and physical courage when facing the enemy. But for crying out loud, you are USMC, if you want cool factor, look no further than your very own marine raiders of WWII and other such similar units. Plus it would match up better with the blood dripping smiley face headshot shirt you are wearing. :rolleyes:

So what if they were ignorant because of their lack of education? Situational awareness is important! Little culturally insensitive things like that can eventually get you hurt. But you guys know all about that.

/End rant.

Hate to say this but, it's one controversy after another with the military and it doesn't do the US military any good whenever these sorts of incidents/stories get out...some common sense is needed especially with the amount of media spotlight there is in today's society.

Common sense needed.

I wonder how hard it will be for the Sgt Maj of the Marine Corps to investigate the use of the SS bolts when he himself has it tattooed on his leg. Its been the symbol for USMC Snipers for a long time, it has nothing to do with Nazi's at this point, it's simply part of the Marine Sniper sub-culture. The SS also used a deaths head skull and bones pin as part of their uniform, should we outlaw that as well? I guess I'm just getting tired of the MSM pissing on the Marine Corps every time they get a chance. Yeah we make mistakes that some may find offensive or politically incorrect but we also do a job that most would never sign up to do. Dig deep enough and you can always find a bad guy who wore what you wear...that doesn't mean you're a bad guy too. This is turning into a witch hunt.

From the Military Religious Freedom Foundation (MRFF)
 

The MRFF, an organization that is pressuring the USMC to investigate this matter fully. Chris Rodda, the MRFF's senior research director, has posted the following on the organization's website. The source is here._______________________________________________
* Williamson Murray and Richard Hart Sinnreich raised this question in the introduction to the essays presented in The Past as Prologue: The Importance of History to the Military Profession (New York: Cambridge University Press, 2006), 1-11.

All this........
 

..............from folks who think a Che T-Shirt is cool.

Former Marine
 

Before the Army I was in a Scout Sniper PLT out of Lejeune. The command can say what they want about not knowing, this symbol has been used as far back as any of us could remember. Our sniper instructors had the symbol branded into them upon graduation of sniper school, the history on that was the instructors would make the brand for the class, give one out on graduation day. Then the whole class would go out get drunk and brand each other. Now by the time my generation was going through school branding was no longer accepted so tattoos were what people got. I will say I did not considering I come from a minority filled city I didn't want to explain to each and every person that I meant for it to symbolize scout sniper. Considering most guys got it on the back of their necks, I felt they were just asking for an attack from behind, at the time I was a little older then my peers by a couple of years, maybe my indestructible toughness was already wearing off.

The sniper culture has promoted this symbol from the top down. To ride the PLT level shooters about this is the wrong answer. I remember seeing senior guys show off their brand as a mark of passage, and these were E7s and above, the guys who were in charge of the Scout Sniper School and major programs.

Then again maybe they are just paving the way to a kinder and more considerate time when women can feel at peace to join the unit.

Sorry Spitfire, this is controversy the Corps brought on themselves. They were warned in the early 80s when this was first brought up that it was a bad idea and would be met with scorn. Those are SS runes and they were adopted by a white supremacist in the scout snipers back in the 80s when that crap was cool. This is not the media dumping on the Marine Corps, it is the Marine Corps f**king up.

You are justifiably proud of the Marine Corps, they are a great unit wiht a proud history, this one though, not so much so.

My 2 cents and I have been around the snipers for a while.

Attention!

All hands hear this.

THE WAR IS OVER.

YOUR SERVICES ARE NO LONGER NEEDED.

ALL MILITARY PERSONNEL WILL NOW REPORT FOR REPROGRAMMING AND OUTPROCESSING.

EXCEPT THOSE OF YOU SELECTED FOR WAR CRIMES TRIALS.

That is all.

TR

Forgive me of constantly trying to back our troops. Sometimes they do stupid things, but they also are embracing the suck. Ergo, as they fight the war overseas, and I fight the war here at home, I try to prevent them from being the centerpiece in a very toxic political environment.

Maybe all I should have said was "no excuse".

Typical reply coming from an analysts

I remember when we had some guys in Group who were reenactors in the WW2HRS, including the LSSAH ( http://www.lssah.com/kt2.html ). I was looking into joining, too, but - ironically - came down on orders for Bad Tölz (the pic in the link shows the SS-Junkerschule at Bad Tölz which later became Flint Kaserne, the HQs for SF in Germany), left and never joined.

The guys who joined the LSSAH reenactors studied the history, traditions, and tactics, and wore the uniforms and equipment when participating in reenactment gatherings. Some of them were of Nordic ancestry and some just interested in the history, but I never saw anybody sport any symbolic Nazi tattos of a swastika or siegrunen.

I did meet a number of former members of the WSS during my time at Tölz and some of our guys were avid memorabilia collectors, but nobody wanted to be seen as being associated with Nazi philosophical ideals. For my part, it was both interesting and informative to sit and talk history and tactics with men who had literally spent years fighting the Soviets on the harsh OstFront - which would have been our enemy and AO if the 'balloon' had ever 'gone up' for us then.

We had a team patch made which incorporated the image of a medevil teutonic hunting dagger (which was also used by the SS), replacing the image of the vertical knife of the SF SSI to symbolize our being stationed in the former Junkerschule - but the Siegrunen and Nazi eagle were replaced with the atomic energy symbol relative to our team's focus (atchd) to prevent any misperception of our intent.

I did see such Nazi symbols and tattos while growing up - they were being used by overtly racist groups and hardcore motorcycle gang members.

It amazes me that any member or organization of the US military would think it was OK to condone or sport such an image, or claim they did not understand any of the symbolism associated with it. :confused:

Anybody check those historically challenged scout snipers to ensure they don't have their blood type tattoed under their left armpit?

And so it goes...

Richard :munchin

Marines, they're just special. :D
Whenever we have some of them transient and they get liberty and go out in town they never fail to raise the bar on stupid. :mad:
Alas, if I had a penny for every time I had to work my butt off to keep theirs out of trouble with the local LEO's I'd be a gatrizillionaire by now.
Common sense seems to become every day less common.