Agreed - for diversity. Against AA. But how do we get diversity with those that refuse to accept it.

Concur, but that, as they say is "the rub".

Unfortunately, those who refuse to accept diversity probably never will. That being the case, is "forced" diversity truly beneficial to that particular group? Even if such diversity occurs there will always be the "clique" that will find ways of obstructing further progress of the "others" who were forced on them.

Personally, as an American of Filipino ethnicity (normally, I only say that when asked specifically), the whole AA thing has been twisted into something beyond it's original intent.

That is where it gets into a sticky gooey mess. Do we apply the same standards across the board. As in, (arbirtrary numbers) say we have 11% of the population is Hispanic, 10% Black, 5% Asian... etc etc.... Would we have to mandate that out of 10,000 workers we have to have the exact same precentages in comparison to their percentage in over-all society? I think we both agree that is just not possible. Do we get a token representative from each group and call it a day, that's not what we're really looking for though.

Would we treat UMASS Medical center to the same standards as say KPMG in saying, "you need 5 more ethnic doctors"? Would we sacrifice quality for satisfying a quota, or not even a quota, but an ideal diverse environment?

Do we need diversity, damn right we do. I think that is what makes this country so great, is that we are diverse. I'm also aware of several places that do not wish to involve themselves in this, and wish to work among those like themselves. It is those groups that we have to figure out how to deal with. And with that I am obviously out of my league. I think someone with legal backround should help guide us on how to deal with those who do not like the idea or practise of diversity. Anyone? Lawyer?

I'll do my best, but I don't understand what you are asking.

...that'll be a thousand dollars. Please pay the nice lady at the front desk on your way out."

Good discussion, I think. (NDD: I am the acorn . . . :D )

I do have a question. Hopefully doesn't violate OPSEC; you can decline to answer if it does.

I would think we'd like to have a whole bunch of Korean and Chinese SF guys. I suspect that these groups are underrepresented in SF.

1. Is it "affirmative action" to try to get more Korean and Chinese guys into SF?

2. Is it wrong to do this? This really is the same as my black-lawyer-for-the-inner-city-jury issue . . .

heh... Are you calling me wishy washy, counselor? Well, you'd be right.

How do we propose a system, perhaps a set of laws but not strictly defined to laws, that will help foster diversity without forcing it upon businesses in such a way where hiring is solely based on ethnicity rather than on ability? Is there a way to find a middle-ground to perhaps select based on ability from a pool of diverse candidates, or does the market aleady do that for us?

How can we arrive at the best case of acheiving diversity without resorting to the constraints of AA?

No. The insidious aspect of affirmative action is the coercive imposition of "diversity" for it's own sake, and as a reward to minority groups. Affirmative action would not say, "because of the mission, we need more Chinese and Korean guys in 1st SFG." By contrast, affirmative action would say, "whether it helps the mission or not, you need to have no more than 4 whites, at least 2 blacks, 2 hispanics, 3 women - preferably two of them Asian - and an American Indian on each 1st SFG ODA, even if there are better candidates from a less diverse alternative." In the first instance "diversity" is not the sought after ends, but perhaps a rational means to achieving a legitimate end (better language and cultural skills, whatever). In the second case, which is what affirmative action is about, "diversity" is the standard for its own sake.

[Note: obviously I am not qualified to speak on who should be in SF. All above examples intended hypothetically.]

I believe the 'leave no child behind' initiative is a good start. AA is like medicating the symptom instead of concentrating on a preventive regimen of more and better education at the grade school level.

As for Korean and Chinese SF recruitment, the economic demographics of these particular groups in America will make that difficult. They tend to lie on the richer side of the scale.

x

Dr. D,

I think your statements above that AA is more to "encourage" than "force" has turned out to be different in practice. In reality, out of fear of lawsuits if they don't appear to meet the "diversity" standards laid down by these laws, all manner of private companies are forced to bend their hiring practices to meet quotas as well. The risk of expensive litigation is too high otherwise. So the effect in practice is that all companies are forced to either play along, or face enormous risks. Whatever your idea is about what makes a nice pallette of colors for your company, I don't think you or anybody else has the right to impose that on everyone else. If some guy, who is a racist, starts a business and only wants to hire his racist buddies then he should be allowed to do it. Ultimately, if he is basing his hiring practices on an irrational and irrelevant criteria (skin color) then his actions will be self-defeating. That is the mechanism of justice appropriate to this kind of stupidity, not pre-emptively treating every business owner as a potential racist and imposing quotas on him under threat of litigation.

BTW, welcome aboard.

Nice.

If I understand your question correctly, I encourage you to read Richard Epstein, Forbidden Grounds: The Case Against Employment Discrimination Laws. He argues that we should just repeal all such laws, and that the market will solve all of the issues you've identified. I know Epstein and like him a great deal. He teaches at the University of Chicago Law School.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...glance&s=books

If anyone is interested in more explanation, I'll do it later. Have to go . . .

LOL - don't tell me you're getting all sensitive? I was bored, I had to pick a fight with somebody. Come on! Give me a smiley face!:D

Thanks RL.

Time to hit the Pay Pal account for some more damage :)