Professional Soldiers ® - Obama releasing torture memos

Professional Soldiers ® (http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/index.php)

- The Soapbox (http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=93)

- - Obama releasing torture memos (http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22831)

Cheney was only VP not P

Quote:

Originally Posted by iamwill (Post 261046)

Dick Cheney should heed George Washington's example. A quiet retirement would suit him best.

Cheney was only the VP not the P.

What are your views on Presidents Carter and Clinton and the amount of time they seem to spend talking?

Who talks more, Algore or Cheney?

Or can it all be boiled down into you don't like Cheney?

On Cheney retiring quietly:

Why is it that only conservatives are supposed to keep their mouth shut?
Cheney is a private citizen now who should exercise his rights as a citizen and is being far more respectful of B.O. than Carter, Clinton, and Gore were of Bush.
I, for one, am sick over the corruption of the press and the congress and I seriously doubt that shutting up the few voices of dissent will make things better in this country.
I think that voting is part of the solution, but I am beginning to think (because of recent scandals with congresswoman Harmon and senator Feinstein) that we as voters and consumers of media need to do some research. We can get these scumbags in their bank accounts by putting the light of day on them. Connections between their votes (for politicians) and their stories (for journalists) and their income. Even if they are not technically breaking laws, it would demonstrate their loyalties and their posturing. I hate the impotent sound of it, but maybe boycotts that are organized on the backs of these tea parties?

CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that ....

Source is here.

Quote:

CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style Attack on Los Angeles
Tuesday, April 21, 2009
By Terence P. Jeffrey, Editor-in-Chief

(CNSNews.com) - The Central Intelligence Agency told CNSNews.com today that it stands by the assertion made in a May 30, 2005 Justice Department memo that the use of “enhanced techniques” of interrogation on al Qaeda leader Khalid Sheik Mohammed (KSM) -- including the use of waterboarding -- caused KSM to reveal information that allowed the U.S. government to thwart a planned attack on Los Angeles.

Before he was waterboarded, when KSM was asked about planned attacks on the United States, he ominously told his CIA interrogators, “Soon, you will know.”

According to the previously classified May 30, 2005 Justice Department memo that was released by President Barack Obama last week, the thwarted attack -- which KSM called the “Second Wave”-- planned “ ‘to use East Asian operatives to crash a hijacked airliner into’ a building in Los Angeles.”

KSM was the mastermind of the first “hijacked-airliner” attacks on the United States, which struck the World Trade Center in New York and the Pentagon in Northern Virginia on Sept. 11, 2001.

After KSM was captured by the United States, he was not initially cooperative with CIA interrogators. Nor was another top al Qaeda leader named Zubaydah. KSM, Zubaydah, and a third terrorist named Nashiri were the only three persons ever subjected to waterboarding by the CIA. (Additional terrorist detainees were subjected to other “enhanced techniques” that included slapping, sleep deprivation, dietary limitations, and temporary confinement to small spaces -- but not to water-boarding.)

This was because the CIA imposed very tight restrictions on the use of waterboarding. “The ‘waterboard,’ which is the most intense of the CIA interrogation techniques, is subject to additional limits,” explained the May 30, 2005 Justice Department memo. “It may be used on a High Value Detainee only if the CIA has ‘credible intelligence that a terrorist attack is imminent’; ‘substantial and credible indicators that the subject has actionable intelligence that can prevent, disrupt or deny this attack’; and ‘[o]ther interrogation methods have failed to elicit this information within the perceived time limit for preventing the attack.’”

The quotations in this part of the Justice memo were taken from an Aug. 2, 2004 letter that CIA Acting General Counsel John A. Rizzo sent to the Justice Department’s Office of Legal Counsel.

Before they were subjected to “enhanced techniques” of interrogation that included waterboarding, KSM and Zubaydah were not only uncooperative but also appeared contemptuous of the will of the American people to defend themselves.

“In particular, the CIA believes that it would have been unable to obtain critical information from numerous detainees, including KSM and Abu Zubaydah, without these enhanced techniques,” says the Justice Department memo. “Both KSM and Zubaydah had ‘expressed their belief that the general US population was ‘weak,’ lacked resilience, and would be unable to ‘do what was necessary’ to prevent the terrorists from succeeding in their goals.’ Indeed, before the CIA used enhanced techniques in its interrogation of KSM, KSM resisted giving any answers to questions about future attacks, simply noting, ‘Soon you will know.’”

After he was subjected to the “waterboard” technique, KSM became cooperative, providing intelligence that led to the capture of key al Qaeda allies and, eventually, the closing down of an East Asian terrorist cell that had been tasked with carrying out the 9/11-style attack on Los Angeles.

The May 30, 2005 Justice Department memo that details what happened in this regard was written by then-Principal Deputy Attorney General Steven G. Bradbury to John A. Rizzo, the senior deputy general counsel for the CIA.

“You have informed us that the interrogation of KSM—once enhanced techniques were employed—led to the discovery of a KSM plot, the ‘Second Wave,’ ‘to use East Asian operatives to crash a hijacked airliner into’ a building in Los Angeles,” says the memo.

“You have informed us that information obtained from KSM also led to the capture of Riduan bin Isomuddin, better known as Hambali, and the discover of the Guraba Cell, a 17-member Jemaah Islamiyah cell tasked with executing the ‘Second Wave,’” reads the memo. “More specifically, we understand that KSM admitted that he had [redaction] large sum of money to an al Qaeda associate [redaction] … Khan subsequently identified the associate (Zubair), who was then captured. Zubair, in turn, provided information that led to the arrest of Hambali. The information acquired from these captures allowed CIA interrogators to pose more specific questions to KSM, which led the CIA to Hambali’s brother, al Hadi. Using information obtained from multiple sources, al-Hadi was captured, and he subsequently identified the Garuba cell. With the aid of this additional information, interrogations of Hambali confirmed much of what was learned from KSM.”

A CIA spokesman confirmed to CNSNews.com today that the CIA stands by the factual assertions made here.

In the memo itself, the Justice Department’s Bradbury told the CIA’s Rossi: “Your office has informed us that the CIA believes that ‘the intelligence acquired from these interrogations has been a key reason why al Qa’ida has failed to launch a spectacular attack in the West since 11 September 2001.”

WARNING: Take a Xanex (Benadryl, or the like) and remove any throwable, sharp, dangerous, or valuable (e.g. vases) objects before reading what O-bee's e-goblins are saying about this issue. I'd also put the cat/dog/wife/kids outside, too, to prevent their either being hurt accidentally or hearing language you might not want them to hear. :eek:

Richard's $.02 :munchin

Dear MoveOn member,

On Thursday, President Obama released memos that describe, in horrific detail, the torture techniques authorized by the Bush administration. The memos make clear that top Bush officials didn't just condone torture—they encouraged it.

So far there's been no accountability for the architects of Bush's torture program—the top officials who justified keeping detainees awake for 11 days straight, waterboarding them repeatedly, and forcing prisoners into coffin-like boxes with insects.1

We need real consequences for those responsible—it's the only way to keep this from happening again. Attorney General Holder can open an investigation into the torture program—but he most likely won't unless people everywhere speak up and demand it.

Can you sign our petition to Attorney General Eric Holder asking him to appoint a special prosecutor to investigate the torture program? If we can reach 200,000 signatures, we'll deliver the petition to Holder by the end of the week. Clicking here will sign your name:

http://pol.moveon.org/torture/o.pl?i...62-sO92Lkx&t=3

The petition says: "No one is above the law. It's time to appoint a special prosecutor to investigate and prosecute the architects of the Bush-era torture program."

Calls for action, from the United Nations, the ACLU, Amnesty International,2 Senators Leahy and Feingold, and others, are gathering steam. The New York Times made the case for accountability in an editorial:3

"...[Obama] has an obligation to pursue what is clear evidence of a government policy sanctioning the torture and abuse of prisoners—in violation of international law and the Constitution. "

This isn't about retribution or politics. It's about accountability. If hundreds of thousands of us speak up, we can make sure Holder hears this loud and clear. http://pol.moveon.org/torture/o.pl?i...62-sO92Lkx&t=4
Thanks for all you do.

–Nita, Kat, Peter, Ilyse, and the rest of the team

P.S. You can see all the Bush administration memos here.

Sources:

1. "Interrogation Memos Detail Harsh Tactics by the C.I.A.," The New York Times, April 17, 2009.
http://www.moveon.org/r?r=51338&id=1...62-sO92Lkx&t=5

2. "Opposition Grows To Obama's Decision Not To Prosecute CIA Agents," The Huffington Post, April 19, 2009.
http://www.moveon.org/r?r=51336&id=1...62-sO92Lkx&t=6

3. "A Torturers' Manifesto," The New York Times, April 19, 2009.
http://www.moveon.org/r?r=51334&id=1...62-sO92Lkx&t=7

Quote:

Originally Posted by iamwill (Post 261099)

<<SNIP>>

Second, Dick Cheney is good at making things about Dick Cheney. To wit: "I formally asked that they be declassified now. I haven’t announced this up until now, I haven’t talked about it, but I know specifically of reports that I read, that I saw that lay out what we learned through the interrogation process and what the consequences were for the country." I, I, I, me, me, me. Fine yes, let's please see the other side to this story. But, the facts should indeed speak for themselves. I don't need you or any one else for that matter to get involved in important debates to save their political career. Last time I checked those approval ratings were pretty low. Let's try not to make them even worse.

In conclusion, Cheney should sit the eff down. His constant forays into the MSM are not helping anything or anyone. Stay out of the picture and all will be well. It might prove to be beneficial. As that Rolling Stones song goes: time, Mr. Cheney, is on your side.

With respect, I think that in your efforts to demonstrate your disapproval for Mr. Cheney you undermine greatly the efficacy of your broader argument. (How is a person supposed to speak in an interview if not in the first person?)

How is the sitting president's release of the interrogation memos not also a 'purely political' act?
How will the 'facts speak for themselves' if participants in the debate are shouted down?
What limits would you have placed on aggressive interrogations, especially in light of the demonstrated contempt of Khalid Sheik Mohammed for America?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard (Post 260110)

I say leave the damn cat at home and recommend taking The Beer Belly— a fake beer belly that looks amazingly realistic under a T-shirt. Made from neoprene, the insulated polyurethane bladder holds a healthy quantity of your favorite beverage, accessible through a tube that - similiar to a Camelback - runs under your shirt and clips to your collar to quench your thirst when you need it most. Regular Beer Belly: $34.95. Deluxe Beer Belly: 49.95. Costs do not include shipping.

Not a beer aficionado - try the Wine Rack.

http://www.thebeerbelly.com/The_Beer...ine_Up_s/1.htm

Those four miles will never seem so daunting again...and it beats the hell out of the evening news. :D

Richard's $.02 :munchin

Richard,

Forget the beer belly..... The "cooler scooter" is how I would do my 4 mile walk...;)

GB TFS :munchin

Quote:

Originally Posted by iamwill (Post 261046)

Dick Cheney should heed George Washington's example. A quiet retirement would suit him best.

You are in the wrong AO with not enough troops. Walk that trail like Wes Clark did.

Quote:

Originally Posted by iamwill (Post 261099)

Just to be clear this is the transcript I am using from Fox News interview between Hannity and VP Cheney. Here is his statement on interrogation/torture:

One of the things that I find a little bit disturbing about this recent disclosure is they put out the legal memos, the memos that the CIA got from the Office of Legal Counsel, but they didn’t put out the memos that showed the success of the effort....” Full wording here

Now, of course Cheney wants to get on Fox News and defend his actions and the actions of the administration with the release of these memos. He has every right to do so.

Unfortunately, his defense--arguing for the declassification of "proof-positive" memos--does not help his image. His interview is purely political to help him save-face for previous remarks he made about this very topic. Plus, going on Hannity is a joke. That guy is just going to feed him lob-ball questions all night long.

First, his statement proves he is a liar, which undermines any credibility he has in torture debate. In a December 16, 2008 interview with ABC News he asserted "On the question of so-called torture, we don't do torture. We never have. It's not something that this administration subscribes to. Again, we proceeded very cautiously. We checked. We had the Justice Department issue the requisite opinions in order to know where the bright lines were that you could not cross." Okay, let's be honest with our selves: we have tortured. If waterboarding someone more than 183 times isn't torture then I don't know what is. And Cheney certainly knew about it, especially since he knows that classified CIA memos exist proving the "success of the effort." Americans don't like liars. And to have him avoid any responsibility he might have had in this or any statements he might have made just adds fuel to the fire.

Second, Dick Cheney is good at making things about Dick Cheney. To wit: "I formally asked that they be declassified now. I haven’t announced this up until now, I haven’t talked about it, but I know specifically of reports that I read, that I saw that lay out what we learned through the interrogation process and what the consequences were for the country." I, I, I, me, me, me. Fine yes, let's please see the other side to this story. But, the facts should indeed speak for themselves. I don't need you or any one else for that matter to get involved in important debates to save their political career. Last time I checked those approval ratings were pretty low. Let's try not to make them even worse.

In conclusion, Cheney should sit the eff down. His constant forays into the MSM are not helping anything or anyone. Stay out of the picture and all will be well. It might prove to be beneficial. As that Rolling Stones song goes: time, Mr. Cheney, is on your side.

I am sure there are plenty on here that would then argue, that in fact you have no clue as to what torture is.

And how do you figure him staying out of the foray will calm things down/ By the fact that the American people are only getting one side of the story, and with only one side, there can only be one answer, and with only one answer, the Democrats can have everything their way.

i am sure that if you were Dick Cheney, and everyone was second guessing how you and your boss went about protecting your nation after it had been attacked, you would sit quietly by. And I have a bridge in Brooklyn I would love to sell you.

It is blatantly obvious by your posts that you do not care for Cheney. Fine, as Sigaba stated, I hope you decide to hold everyone else to the same standared. Somehow I doubt it, or else y ou would be lambasting the Obama administration for releasing the memos in the first place.

Quote:

Originally Posted by iamwill (Post 261099)

Just to be clear this is the transcript I am using from Fox News interview between Hannity and VP Cheney. Here is his statement on interrogation/torture:

One of the things that I find a little bit disturbing about this recent disclosure is they put out the legal memos, the memos that the CIA got from the Office of Legal Counsel, but they didn’t put out the memos that showed the success of the effort....” Full wording here

Now, of course Cheney wants to get on Fox News and defend his actions and the actions of the administration with the release of these memos. He has every right to do so.

Unfortunately, his defense--arguing for the declassification of "proof-positive" memos--does not help his image. His interview is purely political to help him save-face for previous remarks he made about this very topic. Plus, going on Hannity is a joke. That guy is just going to feed him lob-ball questions all night long.

First, his statement proves he is a liar, which undermines any credibility he has in torture debate. In a December 16, 2008 interview with ABC News he asserted "On the question of so-called torture, we don't do torture. We never have. It's not something that this administration subscribes to. Again, we proceeded very cautiously. We checked. We had the Justice Department issue the requisite opinions in order to know where the bright lines were that you could not cross." Okay, let's be honest with our selves: we have tortured. If waterboarding someone more than 183 times isn't torture then I don't know what is. And Cheney certainly knew about it, especially since he knows that classified CIA memos exist proving the "success of the effort." Americans don't like liars. And to have him avoid any responsibility he might have had in this or any statements he might have made just adds fuel to the fire.

Second, Dick Cheney is good at making things about Dick Cheney. To wit: "I formally asked that they be declassified now. I haven’t announced this up until now, I haven’t talked about it, but I know specifically of reports that I read, that I saw that lay out what we learned through the interrogation process and what the consequences were for the country." I, I, I, me, me, me. Fine yes, let's please see the other side to this story. But, the facts should indeed speak for themselves. I don't need you or any one else for that matter to get involved in important debates to save their political career. Last time I checked those approval ratings were pretty low. Let's try not to make them even worse.

In conclusion, Cheney should sit the eff down. His constant forays into the MSM are not helping anything or anyone. Stay out of the picture and all will be well. It might prove to be beneficial. As that Rolling Stones song goes: time, Mr. Cheney, is on your side.

I do not think that you understand the definiton of torture, or have the life experiences to comment on it. Have you been tortured? Waterboarded? To SERE training?

IMHO, we have allowed an excessive amount of media whining and opinions best left on the Op-Ed page to drive public opinion into thinking that someone is entitled to rights and protections that they do not have, and into believing that termporary discomfort or humiliation for people with extreme violence and resistance to interrogation in their backgrounds equals torture.

Additionally, I do not think that Mr. Cheney really cares about his "image". At the same time, should he go on MSNBC or CNBC to be lectured and called names? I do not think that Mr. Cheney has any further political aspirations. On the other hand, I would expect him to defend attacks on himself and his service just as anyone else would. Does the fact that you disagree with him politically negate his First Amendment rights? If so, shouldn't we be able to extend that to socialists, Marxists, and those who would do this nation harm?

By the way, what have you done for your country?

TR

Quote:

If waterboarding someone more than 183 times isn't torture then I don't know what is.

Sounds like someone needs a road trip to the 'People's Pond' out by the ranges near Camp Worden for a 'swim test' to understand what the definition of 'is' is here. ;)

Here's one definition - not ours:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXksoJ2_9Wg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8e5W...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fB8uN...eature=related

Richard's $.02 :munchin

Quote:

That guy is just going to feed him lob-ball questions all night long.

....lord knows former VP Cheney is the only person in modern politics lucky enough to have a media personality spoon feed him questions.

Its a damn good thing the rest of our leadership isnt afraid to answer REAL questions from the opposing camp.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billy L-bach (Post 261133)

Hey, what is Michelle Obama wearing today?:munchin

Mr. President, what sort of dog are you getting for your kids?

You mean substantive questions like that?

TR

exactly....
Answers to questions that matter.

Like:
So what did they put on the queens iPOD?
How much does the Chavez book cost on Amazon?

Quote:

Originally Posted by iamwill (Post 261099)

....... Okay, let's be honest with our selves: we have tortured. If waterboarding someone more than 183 times isn't torture then I don't know what is........

Could you please link the source for the "183 times" statement about waterboarding one individual?

I have not been able to find that source. First most read about "183 times" was when it was put out in a left wing blog site. From there it went into the echo chamber.

Again, source please.

Pete