Honest question, Why does the HK USP .45 function better?

Kimber
 

Well since it was a 1911. I was using it as a hammer also

The 1911 was designed in an era before CAD and CNC machines. The guns were made to work because the guys making them knew what they were doing.

The problem with design itself is that the gun has to be held to very close tolerances to work 100% unlike a Glock of H&K. If you get a couple of degrees off on the feed ramp on a 1911 and you'll have feeding problems. The only way to build a 1911 that runs really well all the time is to spend time ensuring that everything is set up just right. Unlike the modern designs you actually have to manually tension and radius the extractor on a 1911 for it to work properly. The problem is that you have to expend so many man hours going over the gun that it really starts to get expensive. To combat this 1911 makers have had to cut some corners (like using mim parts) just to get to a reasonable price point and the result has been a decrease in reliabililty.

The H&K is a modern design built with the aid of CAD and its parts are all made with very tight tolerances on CNC machines. Since there is only one H&K there is only one spec for the gun. Every part turned out by H&K for the USP will drop into any other USP of the same caliber and work. The 1911 on the other hand can have slightly different specs from manufacturer to manufacturer.

Even though I love the 1911 and own two of them I will admit that they aren't very practical from a cost perspective. Both of them run and run very well, and both are more accurate than I am but that came with a hefty price tag.

kgoerz:

If you haven't sent your Kimber back to Kimber already, may I suggest what has worked for me--(1) take it up to Shooters Pawn on Bragg Boulevard this evening and have Greg the Gunsmith tension the extractor properly, and (2) get Chip McCormick mags, rip the innards out, and replace with Tripp Industries springs and followers. I have had zero failures with my Springfield TRP since doing this.

Team Sergeant:

You're right that autoloading pistols have made progress in the last 95 years. 1911s are for gun nuts only, and gun nuts who have enough money and sense to do maintenance and replace parts. I trust mine enough to carry it on duty above all other choices. Our department's standard issue is SIG P220 which is wonderful except that when somebody takes it from you, they shoot you with it if they want to (and we did have a subject take away a deputy's 220 last year, but he didn't totally want to shoot the deputy, just ran away). If somebody gets my 1911 away from me, it MIGHT take them a couple seconds to figure out the thumb safety, which MIGHT give me enough time to take countermeasures. That, and the first-shot accuracy, tip the balance for me.

My off-duty is ye olde M9, just like GI except it has night sights. It also rides on-safe. I know a lot of people hate this gun but mine has never even thought about jamming, I can hit with it, and it conceals a little more easily IWB than a 1911. Also, since I didn't sign the Hague Convention, I fill it up with 147gr hollowpoints. I shoot both a Sams M9 Brigadier and an accurized 1911 (not an A1, a 1911 made in 1918) in bullseye competition. They both have big blocky Bo-Mar match sights with sharp corners that make IWB carry painful and interfere with duty holster straps; otherwise, they're good to go.

My theory about the difference between the reputation and reality of the 1911, and it's not a new theory, is that in the World Wars, the Fedril Gummint supervised QC at all contractors and everybody made parts correctly. Nowadays, 1911s are hit-or-miss because in a capitalist world, gunmakers only have to build something that will fly off the shelves, and then function for the 200 rounds that most people shoot their guns. It's true that for many people, nothing fits their hand like a 1911 and nothing is as easy to hit with as a 1911, but unless you are prepared to take care of a temperamental design, go get something much newer and learn to hit with it.

There are very few 1911 manufacturers or pistolsmiths who understand the proper relationship between reliability and accuracy.

The original 1911 went more than 30,000 rounds between failures, feeding 230 grain Ball ammo from GI mags.

The parts could be swapped from pistol to pistol with very little, if any hand fitting required.

The 1911A1 I was issued in 1979 (which was manufactured in 1943) ran fine for thousands of rounds while I had it. Zero stoppages or failures, even at end of the FY ammo shoot offs.

Strange that today, the same pistol seems to be unreliable, I wonder how we screwed that up? Probably as stated, excessively tight pistols, unusually shaped ammo, and wide manufacturing tolerances from the original design.

Also curious that a round designed over 100 years ago for the 1911 is as popular as it is today as defensive purposes.

Even Gaston Glock seems hard pressed to improve on it significantly.

Just my old school .02. I like some of the HKs as well.:D

TR

I have notice that a firearm is generally blamed for a Failure to Feed problem. That on some firearms the design of the feed ramp will work with certain rounds and not with others. Truncated RN and HP, have a tendency not to feed well on a steep ramp. The choice of ammo can greatly effect a firearms ability to preform as expected.

Great! Now I'm worried. I'm just shy of 1.000 rounds through my Kimber TLE/RL II and it's developed problems. Failure to extract at least one round per magazine. I've quit carrying it and it's gone from the night stand to the safe. The hole for the firing pin is also enlarging. Almost egg or tear drop shaped. Greg and John at Shooters said it definately needs to go back to Kimber for a replacement. It has to be some kind of metal lury (sp??) problem. I called and got the same run around it sounds like you guys got on the shipping and so forth. WTF. I'll get around to shipping after this class ends. Take care all.

Have you tensioned or replaced the extractor?

TR

TR, I ordered a new extractor and it took a month to get. The guys at shooters were all in agreement on sending it back to Kimber for the enlarged hole around the firing pin. Kimber is going to replace the entire slide with an internal extractor. Hopefully they can do it faster than it took for the new extractor.

I had one that did the same .... took it straight to a friend who is a gunsmith he did some work on the magazine release and it's been in perfect working order since.

I have a XD45 and that was my only complaint as well. I sent it to Scott at Springer Precision in Bend, OR to have him do one of his famous trigger jobs. It shoots like a completely different firearm.

ZK

Just adding that with my Kimber Warrior and 2000+ rounds i rarely have any problems even throwing the crappy factory reloads through it.

1911s?

I have carried a 1911 everyday since 1981. As cop,SWAT and off duty.

I love and hate the things.

I have seen more great 1911s that would run all day everyday and never screw up than I can remember. I have seen even more screwed up 1911s

Kimbers to start with

The original ones where basically hand made pieces of art and ran real well. You find one buy it. It will just say Custom on side it wont have a "II" after it. They made them that way until they where just too busy and also decided to make the safety changes. The newer ones are iffy if they will work or not from factory. Heck I bought a Gold Combat II that would not hit a barn at 25 yards. I sent it back and they fixed for free but it always bugged me that I paid so much for a POS.

If the pistol is for hard use I would have a good 1911 smith replace a few MIM'd parts with the following
Trigger,sear ejector. get the Cylinder and Slide Tool Steal sets. I have these in one pistol with over 45,000 rds through it. MIM is Metal Injection Molded or poop to many.
Extractor. The factory extractors from most all the off the shelf 1911s are junk and soft. They will loose tension and cause the problem in this thread.
Slide stop. Replace MIMd POS with tool steal Wilson Bullet Proof model.

Magazines. Everyone makes 1911 magazines but not everyone makes good one. I like the Wilson 7 and 8 rounders best.

Have these things done and your pistol should run many thousands of rounds.

Dont do this and its iffy

Now I love my 1911s and mine are all good to go but if my old butt was to go off shore I would take a Glock or three instead because while the 1911 will shoot circles around a Glock for HRT work the Glock will work after you ahve wipped your arse with it.

Just my opinion.

I've put about 2500 rounds through my Kimber TLE II (no rail) and have not had one problem with it. The only reason it isn't my EDC is because it's a full size, so I use my Glock 32 as my beater gun.


That Kimber sold me on 1911's.