MtnGoat-
Read 5x5, agreed.

Funny thing is, in the 80's the same arguments were made, but the failure rate in the Q was rather extreme, we lost nearly 50% of my class in PrePhase, and another 20-30% during the Q itself- Maj Howard, Col Gritz, Col Rowe and the entire NCO cadre (anybody remember MSG Samek?) would not cave to the powers that be. Even though it was one of the most demanding things I've ever done, I would do it again.

We all have a common ground, and we do not want the next class of SF soldiers to be unprepared, they will die, as will their Teammates. There can be NO tradeoff in the course standards for the Q - at best, you learn 80% of your job, at best. Anything less is a disservice to the men going through the course.

As a civilian, I have nothing to say about the truth of the report or the impact on the force. However, as a person who is about to sign an 18x contract in two weeks, I can say that for me personally (and I think many others as well) it would produced the opposite of its desired effects. First, when it came time to make a decision regarding whether to join the military and which option to take, it was THE standard that attracted me to SF. This is not so much because of the challenge, but because of the result that it produces (professional men in an unprofessional world). At the same time, it is that same standard that has already weeded out some who not have been up for it. For instance, there were two other seniors from my university who kept saying they were going to go 18x but as the time came to make a choice and they still had not adaquately prepared, they decided to apply to grad schools instead.

The easiest way for me to explain this (and the reason why I think that my opinion has any relavance here at all) is that it is this very standard that is already making a huge difference in my life, although it is very far away. Every morning I get up thinking about that standard and what I have to do that day in order to prepare to meet it (thank you NousDefionsDoc). If I was going to sign a ranger contract, or go OCS, I honestly would not feel that same pressure. I would still feel the need to prepare for Ranger school and a very strong responcibility to prepare if going OCS, but it would not be the same. I don't care what percentage of people are making it through selection these days, I have this idea in my head that you all have a standard of "find a way" or "never quit" and that nothing less will suffice.

I know I have written alot for a civilian, but I just wanted to let you guys know how powerful the SF standard is. It is having an huge effect on someone who may never see it in action. I could not make it through MEPS and it will still have made a huge effect on my life, or I could become a great SF soldier and it will have been the reason why. THE standard is simply that powerful.

I guess this would fall into my statement of:

Well said, now move out and draw fire. (You still have time to make a difference.)

Team Sergeant

If you want to bring something to the table then go join the infantry (preferably Ranger Regiment, Airborne or Light) for 2 or 3 years so you have something to bring to the force when you cross the threshold of a team room. If you go 18X, by the time you graduate the Q-Course, your buddies from basic in these units will have one, two, maybe even three combat tours.

I would hate to count you with the other graduates of the 18X program I have seen...crying about why they don't have E-6 yet with their one year of team time, and when asked why they should be an E-6 (a standard board question, mind you) all they can say is... "my buddy in another company has it already":eek: .

Maintain the standard by continuing what made it the standard in the first place, an organization of the Army's best and brightest, from various MOS backgrounds, all of which had SOMETHING to bring to the table when they came to a team.

These comments are not intended as a direct attack on you Futuresoldier, as I do not know you, nor group you with the microcosm I have seen of the 18X program's products. I am just speaking from what I have seen in my corner of the universe.

This is a good thread, that is a great article, and believe me, we are feeling the impact on the teams.

Editted for vocabulary and spelling...

As a prior service soldier, I wonder if the 18X program is causing such a problem but seems to have a higher pass rate then the conventional route. Why not DX the 18X program and incorporate a pre-course like PRC to allow active soldiers from varies MOSs to gain the knowledge they may be lacking. As stated before it’s up to you to do the physical fitness.Just my .02

I just contracted an 18X slot because it gets me back on active duty and a headed towards my goal. Like Future stated it’s the standards that call me to want a career in SF, knowing the man to my left and right ARE the best gives me a great sense of pride and to be honest relief. Right now am just focusing on the 25m target and getting ready for SFAS.

Jgood-
1. the first highlighted section has been addressed multiple times in previous posts on this thread, it seems you have not read the entire thread. This is a lack of SA. Also the the section, " I wonder if the 18X program is causing such a problem but seems to have a higher pass rate then the conventional route.", is not a complete sentence and is not anywhere near a coherent thought, what exactly are you trying to say?

2. If (as it seems you are saying) 18X is bad, and AD or PS military should have another route that retrains them for SFAS (I won't even get into this non-argument about retraining for SFAS or the Q) have you elected to go 18X for your reentry vehicle into the AD Army?

3. Your profile makes it sound like you really want to be at home in Phoenix - should this really be the case, how long are you going to stay in SF?

There are a lot of inconsistencies between your profile and this post, and there are contradictions in the same, and even between the paragraphs in this post. Clarity of thought and communication are keys to success in SF, you need to work on those as well asyour PT prior to getting to SFAS. Have you bought WMs book? If not, you are way behind the power curve.

For what it's worth. . .
 

At CTM, we picked up two recycles (both of whom passed). By the end of CTM, we lost another 6. For Peds, we picked up another recycle. So long as no one flunks out of Peds, we should head out on our first clinical rotation with 36 dudes. When we get back and SOCM is over, the SEALs, Boat guys and Rangers will be gone, leaving us with but 26 guys for the rest of the course (about 6 more months). I figure we've cut most of the fat from the meat by now.

I'm not sure if that is raising or lowering the standards: it just is what it is.

Books

Understood x_sf_med. Will work on correcting my SA. I have updated my profile to reflect my current status and hopefully clear up any confusion on my part.

I have chosen the 18X program as my reentry vehicle into the AD Army.

Roger, I have purchased WM's book and have read it a couple times and will continue to reread it as much as possible. I am thankful to him for writing it, and I am thankful to all the Quiet Professional who take the time on this board to post. Thank you for you input and I will act upon it.

Let me preface this by saying that what follows is only my opinion, derived from what little I have seen during the course. I don't say much on here usually but this is a topic/thread I would like to comment on.

I am an 18x and throughout the course have seen quality 18x and poor 18x candidates, as well as quality and poor AD candidates. I think if the standards remain high then high quality candidates (18x or otherwise) will pass and leave the others behind. However, even in my short time here, it seems like it has become a numbers game, as has been noted in previous posts, and some, that in the past would not have made the grade, are now being sent on to a team. From what is being said on here the first year on a team remains as a vetting process, and I look forward to the learning experience (read: challenge) that will be.

I, like others on here, decided on an 18x contract, in some part, for the challenge that a career in SF would provide, I didn't do it straight out of highschool because "I had no idea what else to do". I want to work with guys like the QPs on here, and the people on this board helped re-enforce that decision. However what has been said by MtnGoat and SF18C in their posts above, strongly reflect my thoughts, as well as many of those in my current class. While I am happy to be progressing through the course, I think I would feel safer if I had been told "come back later"

Note: If this is out of line, let me know

Edit: Terrible English

Well you are way ahead of the game if you are able to recognize the shortcomings you feel you have. Now work to elliminate them or if you are incapable of eliminating them develop complementary skills to negate them. Let me be very frank, what you get from the course is enough to get you to the team room door. Your real training, development, and learning will happen everyday from then on. I do not think that there was a day in my career in SF that I did not learn something new or do something to sharpen the tools that were part of my skill set or work to attain new skills that I felt I would need in the future. This is a dynamic business and what you learned yesterday has already been affected by the events of today and will require you to adjust and work to be able to perform tomorrow. There is a magnitude of skills and tasks that the school house is just not able to incorporate into the program and there are a variety of mission oriented, area oriented, team specific, and theater driven requirements with which are are yet to be presented. While many of the tasks that you are learning today seem like hard and fast rules they are not locked in concrete but set in jello because so many things you are going to be faced with are event and situation driven. Be a sponge, take in all you can but be prepared to use intelligent initiative and be capable of constant evolution to meet not only the challenges you are going to face today but those you must anticipate you are going to face tomorrow. Develop a knowledge base and performance capability that is truly enhanced by lessons learned and not one that has to be constantly reinforced by mistakes revisited.

I have only one request when they make it to my portion of the Q

Move from point A to B with a compass and map day or night

The lack of land nav skills are taking away from training time at phase II

You've got to be kidding.........:rolleyes:

Say it ain't so.......

TS

if you think leading troops in combat is meeting a lesser standard than being an SF soldier, you are sadly mistaken...the missions are different, the requirements are different, but the consequences of failure will still be measured in terms of American lives lost...

my $0.02...