NDD-

No way of finding that out just from a license check. It *might* show up as a rental company that you recognize, might not.


For your second post,

"If I'm this deputy, there's no way in hell I'm not going to know about a scheduled exercise involving dozens of guys with M16s running around in my county. If the Army didn't tell the locals, maybe they should have. But this guy didn't make an effort to find out either."

I defer to the article-

"Moore County has never participated in such an exercise and was never told of any such training scenarios," the sheriff's department statement said. "This is a tragic incident ,and our heart-felt prayers go out to the families of all involved."

I'm not so sure that this statement is true. The statement implies that they never had any knowledge of any training exercises.

If it's as rural as what you say, it's definitely possible for a deputy not to know about exercises going on.

At Ft. Lewis, I know that the Roy and Yelm city cops aren't told everytime soldiers are running around the woods near there cities. But then again, soldiers at lewis almost always wear BDU's.

NDD, what was the protocol for the Robin Sage trainees if they ran into LE?

Slow down NDD, quit chewing the cocoa-I mean coffee beans...:D

You may want to calibrate that detection device of yours as I believe you are reading something into what I have posted. To help you better understand I will clarify.

1.) I am anything but anti-LEO. The comments you have quoted were about SWAT operators, not LEO in general. I also stated the problems were related to those I have worked with.

2.) Ranger Regiment...Is there any other? :D

3.) Again made the comment in context to those I know and it was not a blanket statement. The SWAT guys here have an attitude similar to that of a few of the Regiment guys I know.

My lack of experience in the military does not preclude me from detecting common attitudes among former members of military units or select LEO units and drawing the conclusion they are similar. You would not have to be a firefighter to make an observation that select firefighters are lazy, fat-asses yet believe they are God's gift to the fire service. I stand by my statements.


I hope this clears it up for you.

I don't know what they do now, when I went through, it was all rural. We avoided the cops like any other civilian and didn't have vehicles. Obviously something has changed.

The only thing obvious to me is that there was no communication.

The part that I don't like is the "chip". I don't understand why current and former LEOs think everybody is picking on them all the time. Not all, but most I have seen on here and SOCNET. If I wanted to pick on LEOs, I would go over to one of their boards and do it.

I'm also a little tired of the concept that LEOs are above question. Soldiers certainly aren't. I have yet to see anybody try to justify NDs resulting in death, the sale of classified information, that terrorist that threw the hand grenades in the tent, etc. When a soldier gets in trouble with the law for major things like murder, etc., other soldiers don't make excuses for him.

Even in this article, you don't see the Army making excuses, but the Sheriff's Department certainly is. IMO, and that's all it is, they're not telling the full story. But there's no way to know is there? Its his word against two dead guys.

This deputy is really good with a gun though. Rural guy in a small town with probably minimal training manages to fight off a Special Forces soldier in H2H and shoot him, then shoot another before he can get to a weapon?

Look, like I said before. I have a lot of respect for the LEO community. And I imagine most of the problems are caused by administration rather than the officer in the street.

All this goes back to poor hiring policies, low pay, piss poor training, and an attitude. There are undoubtely thousands of very professional LEOs making sacrifices to keep the streets as safe as possible. But there are also those 20 year-old wannabes riding around looking for trouble.

Why is it so hard to admit that when you give a kid a gun, a car with lights on it, and pretty much carte blanche from prosecution for all but the most serious crimes, there's going to be considerable abuse?

I wouldn't post the whole article except it's from the archives for the Fayetteville paper and you have to be a subscriber to use those.

Lt Tomeny lived down the street and around the corner from me.

Lawsuit filed in Robin Sage death

By Todd Leskanic

Staff writer

A Moore County sheriff’s deputy who shot two Army soldiers -- killing one -- during a military training exercise in 2002 is being sued in federal court.
The lawsuit says Deputy Randall Butler stopped the soldiers’ vehicle without cause and used deadly force without provocation. Sheriff Lane Carter and the Moore County Sheriff’s Office also are named as defendants.

Butler shot Sgt. Stephen Phelps and 1st Lt. Tallas Tomeny on Feb. 23, 2002. Phelps has recovered and is a plaintiff in the lawsuit. Tomeny died. He was 31. His father, Cody Hastings Massasoit, is representing Tomeny’s estate and is named as a plaintiff.

Phelps and Tomeny were engaged in a field exercise known as Robin Sage when they were shot. Robin Sage is a role-playing field exercise that is part of the training for Special Forces soldiers. It takes place in the Uwharrie National Forest and the 10 surrounding counties.

On the day of the shooting, Phelps and Tomeny were riding in the back of a pickup on Acorn Ridge Road near Robbins. Charles Lieber, a civilian participant in the exercise, was driving the truck. Butler reportedly stopped the truck because he believed the men were behaving suspiciously.

Sheriff’s officials have said Butler saw that the soldiers had weapons and believed his life was in danger. The soldiers, thinking Butler was a participant in the exercise, tried to attack him. Butler fired, killing Tomeny and wounding Phelps.

The lawsuit recounts the events surrounding the shooting differently.

It contends that Butler had no probable cause to stop the truck and that he drew his handgun without provocation. The lawsuit also says Butler sprayed Tomeny with pepper spray without provocation and then shot him. He then shot Phelps for no reason, the suit says.

“They really did nothing to provoke the deputy such that he had justification for using deadly force,’’ said C. Scott Holmes, a lawyer for the plaintiffs. “I think that has really been lost in the mix of all this.�

The complaint also charges that the sheriff and the Sheriff’s Office failed to inform and instruct deputies about the exercise.

Carter, who is now the sheriff, was the chief deputy at the time of the shooting. He said Tuesday that the lawsuit has no merits. He said deputies with the department would have had no reason to know about the Robin Sage exercise.

“I’m not familiar with the code words and all that stuff,’’ he said. “We wouldn’t know it because we didn’t participate in those type scenarios and never had.�

Civilian investigators concluded that the shooting was a misunderstanding. Butler was not charged. He has worked for the Sheriff’s Office for four years and has been a law officer for about 18 years, Carter said.

“He was defending his life, that’s what he thought he was doing,’’ Carter said. “That ain’t never going to change. It’s just a lawyer tactic and an effort to get money from government. It’s not unusual for us to get sued when a life is lost in an incident whether we were right or wrong.�

And now its starting to come out. Thanks CRad. It will be interesting to see what the civilian driving the truck has to say.

This is more in line with when I went through. It wasn't unheard of to get a ride every now and then.

The deputy has said repeatedly that he stopped the truck because it was strange to see two men in the back that time of year.

Maybe he thought they were hunters without licences. That has been known to happen a time or two. Hunting out of season and without a license that is.

NDD, I don't see how the posted article makes it an open and shut case for you.

Lawsuits charge all kinds of crap. We will see what the end result is.

I believe it to be a "Sneaky SF" kind of tactic to deflect questions, and post repeatedly as to put your oponent off guard! I'm onto you now! :D

I'll get back to your other post in a second.

Is this probable cause? or maybe "leeway":D

Oh, I agree 100%. No way is it an open and shut case nor does it even discard what the deputy said. He could very well be telling the truth.

What I meant was I thought the witnesses were dead and now we know they are not and they are talking. That's all. Its still going to be his word against theirs, but at least now we will have their word.

Not going to open the whole can of worms here, but you are misinformed based on false stories the Moore County Sheriff's Office fed the media immediately after the incident.

You also are not familiar with the Robin Sage scenario or exercise procedures. Your assumptions are wrong.

NDD was right.

This exercise has been going on from 4-6 times per year for over 40 years. All LE agencies in the area were notified that the exercise was going on, and to be alert for military personnel in the area. They normally receive specific notification prior to any activity likely to alarm the public, such as assaults on targets, aircraft operations, etc. They were not specifically told that two soldiers would be moving for a recon from A to B in a civilian vehicle, nor were they normally.

The Deputy pulled over a pick-up with three white males, two of miliatry age, grooming, and bearing, during a time when he knew the exercise was ongoing, and had been notified of that. He also had a history of officer involved shootings.

He questioned the driver (a role player) and segregated him in the car. The other two were separated, but not restrained. The LT he spoke with tried to bribe him with Robin Sage exercise money, then offered him MREs. He was wearing a brown t-shirt with "1LT Tomeny" stencilled on the front of it, jungle boots, and had an ALICE pack.

When asked to open the pack, the 1LT, who was standing by the shoulder of the road, avoided compliance, then complied, and the officer saw a broken down M-4. He didn't attempt to conceal the M-4, it was in the ruck when he was stopped. There is not other way to conceal the M-4 without making it even worse. An M-4 upper separated from a lower is not likely to be a threat for several seconds, even if hostile intent is shown. The SSG was sitting in the back of the pick-up. The deputy told the LT to give him the weapon, then the incident went down. A gun grab was never made, IMHO.

The LT allegedly ordered the SSG to get the ruck to keep control of the issued weapon. It appears that the officer drew his pepper spray, grabbed the ruck, OCed the LT, then shot him and the SSG multiple times, with wound patterns inconsistent with the deputy's story.

Why was he not SA enough to see what was going on with Robin Sage students?
Why not cuff them, or at least search and segregate them?
Why not wait for back-up? Were they going somewhere?
Why escalate to deadly force from the OC so quickly?
Why shoot the SSG multiple times when he was not an immediate threat?
Why did the in car video end after the stop, but before the shooting?

The deputy was wrong on almost all counts, and his actions failed to comply with departmental policy, or common sense. He did get another notch on his gun, though.

The students stayed in role when they should not have. They failed to eventually ID themselves to the officer. They attempted to secure the disassembled M-4 after they should have seen the officer becoming agitated, but they thought he was in on the game and they were being evaluated. 1LT Tomeny died, and SSG P was seriously wounded, but was allowed to graduate and IIRC, is currently serving.

The military now notifies the departments of ALL student activity, and provides liaisons. Suudents are also briefed not to interact with LEOs unless controllers are present and they have been briefed that the scenario is in place.

The SO eventually had to retract or clarify several statements they made, and executed a typical small town cover-up. The SBI, who investigated, refused to indict the officer. Not sure if they have changed their procedures or not, since I believe they were not followed.

The community out here took care of the soldiers families, with the local Chamber of Commerce providing hotel rooms for them to come be near the surviving soldier during his hospitalization, offering condolences to all, and showing support for soldiers in particular.

I live in the area, and was here when it happened. Now you have the rest of the story, as I have gathered it.

TR

:munchin

Probable Cause? Maybe
 

He stopped them and didn't like the answers he got from the driver who was a civilian. If I'm not mistaken Staff Sgt Phelps account is somewhat dfferent than Deputy Butler's. At point they tried to bribe Butler with Pineland money.

Here's an article on it -



Tape reveals deputy’s actions
Shootings listed as self-defense

By Greg Barnes
Staff writer
A frantic Deputy Randall Butler radioed a Moore County sheriff’s dispatcher at about 2 p.m. Saturday.

‘‘I’ve got two down. Send me one, possibly two EMS units,’’ Butler told the dispatcher.

The deputy had just shot two Fort Bragg soldiers. Officials say he did not realize they were participating in a role-playing exercise known as Robin Sage, the final segment of the Special Forces Qualification Course.

The Sheriff’s Department released a copy of an often-garbled dispatcher’s tape on Monday afternoon. Shortly afterward, the District Attorney’s Office for Moore County announced that Butler was justified in his use of deadly force.

Officials say the shootings of Tallas Tomeny and Stephen Phelps were a tragic mistake. Butler and the Sheriff’s Department were unaware that the Army had been conducting the exercise.

Tomeny, of Waverly, Tenn., died, and Phelps, of Clearwater Fla., was in fair condition Monday night at FirstHealth Moore Regional Hospital in Pinehurst.


Deputy’s account
Sheriff’s Capt. Tommy Lucas and Detective Greg Beard provided a replay of what they said Butler told investigators:
It was cold Saturday, too cold for somebody to be riding in the back of a pickup truck. That is what Butler thought as a green Ford pickup traveled along N.C. 705 near Robbins.

As Butler watched the truck, it appeared that the passenger inside the cab tried to conceal something. The deputy decided to pull over the driver.

The truck pulled into the parking lot of the Acorn Ridge Baptist Church on Acorn Ridge Road. The driver approached the patrol car.

The man told Butler that his group was looking to hire migrant workers, raising the deputy’s suspicions even further because farm laborers don’t typically work this time of year.

Butler put the man in his patrol car and got his driver’s license: Charles Lieber, a civilian from Seagrove.

Butler had noticed that Tomeny, the passenger inside the pickup, had put something on the floorboard, which also raised his suspicions.

At some point, Butler called for backup.

Butler told Lieber to stay seated while he went to talk with Tomeny. Butler then asked to see what Tomeny had in his backpack.

When Tomeny allowed Butler only a cursory look, the deputy asked him to step outside, where he again asked to see what was in the bag. Again, he got a cursory look.

At Butler’s demand, Tomeny handed him the bag. Inside, Butler found what appeared to be two automatic rifles.

Tomeny tried to grab the bag back from Butler, who slung it on the ground near his patrol car and reached for his pistol, a .40-caliber Beretta.

He partly drew his gun but re-holstered it when Tomeny backed away. Tomeny came at him again, though, and Butler sprayed him with pepper spray.

‘‘Shoot him. Get the gun. Shoot him. He’s got a gun,’’ Capt. Lucas quoted Tomeny telling Phelps, who had been in the bed of the truck.

Phelps jumped out, knelt where Butler had thrown the bag and attempted to get out the rifles.

‘‘Randall Butler is telling him, ‘Show me your hands, show me your hands,’� Lucas said. ‘‘The guy continues to get the bag.’’

Butler fired twice at Phelps, hitting him in the arm and in the chest.

Tomeny started coming toward Butler, acting as though he had a gun hidden in his waistband.

‘‘Show me your hands, show me your hands,’’ Lucas quoted Butler as saying. ‘‘The guy never did show his hands.

“He (Butler) had all indications that the guy had a weapon as well, and he shot him also.’’

Lieber, whom investigators say has participated in other Robin Sage exercises, refused to comment Monday.


‘The big question’
Lucas and Beard said they don’t know why Lieber did not tell Butler about the exercise.
‘‘That’s the big question,’’ Lucas said. ‘‘We don’t know.’’ They speculated that Lieber thought Butler was part of the role- playing.

Other law enforcement agencies have participated in the exercises, which the Army has conducted at least since the 1950s.

Lucas and Beard said Moore County has never participated and never plans to.

They wonder what could happen if they were traveling through another county that was participating in the exercise without their knowledge.

‘‘We see an officer out there on the ground and another guy shooting at him, can you see the response we are going to have?’’ Lucas asked. ‘‘It’s got to be in a controlled environment.

‘‘It can’t be just anywhere on the streets and the highways of North Carolina,’’ Lucas said.

Participants in the Robin Sage exercise do not carry live ammunition, the Army said.

Lucas and Beard said Butler conducted a textbook response to the situation, and they would like to think they would have reacted the same way.


Justified force
In a statement, Garland N. Yates, the district attorney for Moore County, said he had been briefed on the investigation of the shooting done by the State Bureau of Investigation.
‘‘The use of deadly force by Deputy Randall Butler was lawful and justified under North Carolina law in that the deputy believed that he was facing an imminent threat of serious bodily injury or death,’’ Yates said in the statement. ‘‘Deputy Butler had absolutely no knowledge that the soldiers involved were a part of a training exercise.’’

The Army refused to discuss the shooting Monday, but has called a news conference for 10 a.m. today at Stryker golf course on Fort Bragg.

Beard said the Army plans to conduct a complete overview of the exercise.

The 19-day Robin Sage exercise takes place in the Uwharrie National Forest and 10 surrounding counties, which make up a fictitious country called Pineland.

The responsibility for notifying local officials of exercises lies with the 1st Battalion of the 1st Special Warfare Training Group of the John F. Kennedy Special Warfare Center and School on Fort Bragg. The battalion is in charge of the qualification course.

Other law enforcement agencies criticized the Army’s notification attempts.

Montgomery County Sheriff Jeff Jordan said what happened in Moore County could have easily happened in his county.

‘‘About 13 years ago, it almost happened to us,’’ Jordan said.

‘‘We responded to a breaking and entering with four guys. It turned out they were training, and they thought we were role-playing, but we weren’t role-playing.’’

No one was injured in that incident.

Jordan said he rarely hears from the Army about its training exercises. He said he usually finds out through his patrol officers.

‘‘We usually don’t complain too much when they don’t tell us they’re here, but now this brings to light the fact that they need to let us know they’re here,’’ Jordan said.


‘Too darn dangerous’
He said his department would not engage in any role-playing with the Army.
‘‘It’s just too darn dangerous,’’ he said. ‘‘Our community supports the military big-time, but our deputies can’t afford to role-play with them.’’

Jordan said he expects communications with the Army to get better.

Troy Police Chief E.J. Phillips said his officers have worked with soldiers in the exercise and usually know when the military is training in the area.

‘‘It’s not been uncommon for us to assist them,’’ Phillips said. ‘‘If they need special assistance with something they’re doing they call us, and I try to help them coordinate all that stuff, but if they don’t, we usually don’t hear anything.’’Staff writer Arthur McLean contributed to this report.

Thank you Reaper.

In Moore Country, North Carolina?

Reaper,

Thank you Sir for providing information to enlighten me to the situation. I was only going off the news reports that I had seen.

Of course what CR just posted as I was posting this is what I had seen originally. Still reading.....

That and I'm still formulating answers to NDD's multiple posts!

No. At his prior jobs.

Reaper, Thanks for that. I knew there might be more to this story.

I am through with it after Reaper's and CRad's posts. I wrote what I knew about Johnson, then deleted it.

I'm going to start a thread about Martha Stewart now.:D

NDD,

There are always two sides to every story. Reaper shared one, and the above news article shared another.

I can't see another reason for the Deputy to open fire unless he was in fear for his life. And someone shouting, "Shoot him!, Shoot him!" would do it for me.

We could drop this part, but I would like to address one of your earlier posts about the "chip" leo's have.

TR,

Sir, I find it hard to believe that the Deputy killed another man just because he could, to get a "notch", as you say.

Goat head

I may be many things, but goathead ain't one of them! ;)

Go ahead then

NDD,

There is good reasons why LEO's think everyone is picking on them. Most of the time, they are right. With the *possible* exception of medical personnel, no other profession has it's *every* move criticized by the general public.

In LE work, you have to make a thousand decisions every day while simultaneously balancing citizen's rights with your safety. That, and you know that every move you make will be put under a microscope for days at a time. The same decision that you made in a microsecond, some court gets months to decide if you made the right decision.

Think about your current, or your former job. Think if you were required to videotape everything you did, so some bureacrat or defense lawyer could tear you a new one. think about being in a bubble where your every move could result in you losing your job. I guess it would kinda be like being in the "Q" for your entire time you were in the military. Every decision of yours second guessed to see if you should keep your job. Think you would have a "chip" too?

I don't know anyone who thinks that LEO's are above question. That's all LEO's do, is get questioned.

Admit it. While you may claim to be generally pro-Law enforcement, the majority of police incidents you view you go in with the pre-conceived notion that the LEO's overstepped their bounds. Unfortunately, most of the general public feels the same.

It amazes me that non-leo friends, family, and others can watch the same incident as me and come to the conclusion that the leo in question was 100% in the wrong and should be fired. Some of these are the same incidents where I either see that the LEO didn't do anything wrong, or where perhaps I would have gone about it differently then he did, but nothing that constitutes someone losing their job.

I don't even think you can make anywhere near the same comparisons as with soldiers. It's pretty easy to keep your nose clean in the military. The lines are VERY clear. Not so in cop work.

I'm not saying all cops are perfect. I know they aren't. But the majority of cops I worked with were good guys trying to do a hard job to the best of their abilities. Believe it or not, repeated studies have shown overwhelmingly that most cops routinely use a lot less force then they could or should. I'll let you guess why.

The ones CRad posted were from Sheriff's side only and were immediately after the incident.

Do you really think that the LT shouted "Shoot him!", to his NCO sitting well away in the back of a pick-up truck with their only weapon being a disassembled M-4? I really doubt it.

After reading all of the accounts, and speaking with one of the participants, I believe that the command was much more likely to have been just, "Get the gun!" to keep the deputy from taking the issued weapon. I think the "Shoot him!" claim was part of the cover-up attempt.

The department did later admit that they had been told of the exercise, and it was printed on page 12 of the major regional paper.

Got some decent friends with the SO, Butler was not one of them.

TR

The only cases I've commented on are this one and mentioned the Johnson case.

You are talking about an LEO losing his job. What about the dead LT.? What about the Sergeant that may not recover enough to retain to training or even the military.

When we began this discussion, while I admit I am parcial to the other side, I did not blame the LEO. I said there's no excuse and somebody had screwed up. That somebody could have also meant whoever was suppsoed to inform them and didn't. Or even the victims perhaps.

I thought it was pretty clear that I was speaking in general. However you obviously assumed that I was blaming the LEO. I was very careful not to do that because I didn't know enough about it. And yet you felt the need, at least initially, to defend the LEo by asaking for a clarification.

What I am saying is that there is no excuse whatsoever for this to have happened and somebody screwed up. One man is dead and another is wounded. I don't think the deputy should get ridden out of town on a rail without a trial or investigation or whatever. But are you going to tell me that based on what we have read here the incident has been investigated and you're sure the LEO was not at fault and is telling the truth?

Where in all those articles did you see this?
And where in my posts did you see this?

Sir,

I wasn't there, and obviously a lot of major facts are in dispute. Like I said, there are two sides to every story. I won't attempt to argue any other points without the whole story.

I will say this. I don't believe the Deputy shot him because he thought he could get away with it. Do you?

He did get away with it

NDD,

As the discussion progressed I felt as if you were clearly insinuating that it was the LEO's fault. I also realize this is a hard subject to discuss on this particular board.

I have no idea what really happened out there. I think it would be best for all involved if it was finally resolved. I just cannot find it in me to think that this cop fired his weapon for any other reason that he was reasonably in fear for his life. I do agree that this was a tragic situation that should have never happened and that a few people were in error on this one.

It's hard to sit back and analyze an LEO situation that you were not a part of or that you aren't connected to and be able to say for sure either way.

As a cop, with conflicting stories, you have to go with whichever one is most probable. I don't believe that everything that happens with cops is a cover up. And I don't believe everything I read in the paper. Like I said, I don't believe the cop shot those people for any reason other then being in reasonable fear for his life.

It's probably best if we ended this part of the discussion. Tragic, and shouldn't have happened. I think we all agree on that.

Why do you think he shot them then?


I don't mind if you defer and end this portion of the conversation.

But answer my other response! :cool:

Is this the question you want me to answer? I'm confused.

Por favor.

Ok, this is what I think and its only my opinion and not based on anything other than that.

I don't think he stopped them with the intention of shooting them. I think he stopped them to screw with them and the situation escalated beyond his ability to control it. I thinked he stopped them because they were soldiers on robin sage and he was bored.

I think he knew or had a pretty good idea of who and what they were, if not before then soon after. I think when he sprayed the guy with the gas and it didn't put him down, it scared him.

Now he may have feared for his life or safety towards the end, perhaps because they stayed in role and caused him to doubt what he knew to be true, but I think this situation was of his making and he escalated it.

Edit to add - I think he is a bad cop with a penchant, if the report is true about his past, for going to his gun too quick and that he has no place in law enforcement in general. It would not surprise me to learn that he has a history of wife abuse or racial violence as well.

And I think one man is dead and another injured because he abused his discretion and decided it wasn't normal for people to ride in the back of a pick up in winter.

I think the deputy was situationally unaware, violated policies established for his own and the public's safety, was arrogant, failed to control the situation, escalated the force continuum to unnecessary levels, acted like a cowboy, possibly intentionally, took a good man's life and seriously altered another's who also wanted to serve their country.

I live in the same county, and am uncomfortable with this man ever being allowed to carry a weapon again, either as a public servant or as a private citizen. You know the type, those who usee to get beat up in school and see their badge and weapon as an opportunity to exercise their power and take down people to prove themselves.

I do not like cop bashing either, having spent several years working for a department myself, but I cannot abide bad cops, or those who cover up or are apologists for them. Those few are why people fear and dislike the other 95% of LEOs who are out there doing a good job with marginal training and equipment, for surprisingly small salaries.

IMHO, this guy was a loose cannon and hit the wrong situation. He got away with it, and two soldiers paid the price.

TR

I think you are correct, he has shot people on more than one other occasion, causing his release from at least one other department for excessive use of force, and I have heard that he was under a domestic violence protective order when he shot the soldiers. A friend of ours knew him since high school, said that this incident was not a surprise from him.

Not a personal shot at you, WM, but to turn your question around, why is it that cops automatically take the LEO's side, even when he is wrong, or the events indicate that he is?

I think that causes citizens to assume that it doesn't matter what really happened, the cops will close ranks and sweep it under the rug.

IMHO, you should be on a bad cop's case like white on rice.

TR

Hijack...

So, I was glad Martha got nailed this past week.
NDD, You own Kmart stock? I bet you think it was "a good thing" that the charges of insider trading were dropped?

Officers do sometimes escalate a situation out of control, because they are scared, and end up shooting people. Don't make me post that link to Trooper Latikas shooting, it does happen. I am normally 100% behind LEO's, but like any profession there are bad apples, and like TR said when you find one you should be on them like white on rice. Sometimes I think the blue line goes too far protecting dirt bags, loosing some friends in the process, and giving ammo to your real enemies. Some also target soldiers, not all of them, and not every PD, but that does happen too and I have seen it first hand. Some posts have very good relationships with the LEO's outside the gate, some just see the base as a big cow to milk for all its worth. Ft Stewart was bad for a while, until they locked up the Police Chief, but it paled in comparison to places like Ft Polk, and a few others.

TR,

Sir, I think cops are more likely to give fellow cops the benefit of the doubt. Cops will stick up for each other because not only will no one else, but everyone is quick to condemn cops. If a cop is clearly wrong, good cops do like to see that cop fired/prosecuted, just because it gives all cops a bad name.

From your last post it does appear that this guys is a bad apple. Specifically-

"I think you are correct, he has shot people on more than one other occasion, causing his release from at least one other department for excessive use of force, and I have heard that he was under a domestic violence protective order when he shot the soldiers. A friend of ours knew him since high school, said that this incident was not a surprise from him."

Getting back to the question of the "Thin Blue Line". It's a complex question, and I'm not sure that I could fully answer it.

I will say that coverups don't happen nearly as often as folks believe. I knew *one* cop that there was a rumor that he did cocaine. I knew of absolutely no instances of a coverup by patrol officers.

Most of the time, cops are so scared of being fired or sued that they use less force then they should. There are exceptions to everything, and a lot depends on what part of the country you are in. I wouldn't fuck around with an Socal cop at all....or a new orleans one, or NYPD. In washington state, you can pretty much run your mouth w/out fear of an unwarranted ass beating. Not so other places. I don't know how it is where you live.

Does that cover it?