Maybe the docs, but not the Founders' hearts, which inspired the docs.

A Few Declarations of Founding Fathers and Early Statesmen on Jesus, Christianity, and the Bible

(This list is by no means exhaustive; many other Founders could be included, and even with those who appear below, additional quotes could have been used.)

John Adams


SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE; JUDGE; DIPLOMAT; ONE OF TWO SIGNERS OF THE BILL OF RIGHTS; SECOND PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES

The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.1

The Holy Ghost carries on the whole Christian system in this earth. Not a baptism, not a marriage, not a sacrament can be administered but by the Holy Ghost. . . . There is no authority, civil or religious – there can be no legitimate government but what is administered by this Holy Ghost. There can be no salvation without it. All without it is rebellion and perdition, or in more orthodox words damnation.2

Without religion, this world would be something not fit to be mentioned in polite company: I mean hell.3

The Christian religion is, above all the religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of wisdom, virtue, equity and humanity.4

Suppose a nation in some distant region should take the Bible for their only law book and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited. . . . What a Eutopia – what a Paradise would this region be!5

I have examined all religions, and the result is that the Bible is the best book in the world.6

John Quincy Adams

SIXTH PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES; DIPLOMAT; SECRETARY OF STATE; U. S. SENATOR; U. S. REPRESENTATIVE; “OLD MAN ELOQUENT”; “HELL-HOUND OF ABOLITION”

My hopes of a future life are all founded upon the Gospel of Christ and I cannot cavil or quibble away [evade or object to]. . . . the whole tenor of His conduct by which He sometimes positively asserted and at others countenances [permits] His disciples in asserting that He was God.7

The hope of a Christian is inseparable from his faith. Whoever believes in the Divine inspiration of the Holy Scriptures must hope that the religion of Jesus shall prevail throughout the earth. Never since the foundation of the world have the prospects of mankind been more encouraging to that hope than they appear to be at the present time. And may the associated distribution of the Bible proceed and prosper till the Lord shall have made “bare His holy arm in the eyes of all the nations, and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God” [Isaiah 52:10].8

In the chain of human events, the birthday of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birthday of the Savior. The Declaration of Independence laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity.9


Samuel Adams


SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE; “FATHER OF THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION”; RATIFIER OF THE U. S. CONSTITUTION; GOVERNOR OF MASSACHUSETTS

I . . . [rely] upon the merits of Jesus Christ for a pardon of all my sins.10

The name of the Lord (says the Scripture) is a strong tower; thither the righteous flee and are safe [Proverbs 18:10]. Let us secure His favor and He will lead us through the journey of this life and at length receive us to a better.11

I conceive we cannot better express ourselves than by humbly supplicating the Supreme Ruler of the world . . . that the confusions that are and have been among the nations may be overruled by the promoting and speedily bringing in the holy and happy period when the kingdoms of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ may be everywhere established, and the people willingly bow to the scepter of Him who is the Prince of Peace.12

He also called on the State of Massachusetts to pray that . . .

the peaceful and glorious reign of our Divine Redeemer may be known and enjoyed throughout the whole family of mankind.13
we may with one heart and voice humbly implore His gracious and free pardon through Jesus Christ, supplicating His Divine aid . . . [and] above all to cause the religion of Jesus Christ, in its true spirit, to spread far and wide till the whole earth shall be filled with His glory.14
with true contrition of heart to confess their sins to God and implore forgiveness through the merits and mediation of Jesus Christ our Savior.15

Josiah Bartlett


MILITARY OFFICER; SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE; JUDGE; GOVERNOR OF NEW HAMPSHIRE

Called on the people of New Hampshire . . . to confess before God their aggravated transgressions and to implore His pardon and forgiveness through the merits and mediation of Jesus Christ . . . [t]hat the knowledge of the Gospel of Jesus Christ may be made known to all nations, pure and undefiled religion universally prevail, and the earth be fill with the glory of the Lord.16

Gunning Bedford

MILITARY OFFICER; MEMBER OF THE CONTINENTAL CONGRESS; SIGNER OF THE CONSTITUTION; FEDERAL JUDGE

To the triune God – the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost – be ascribed all honor and dominion, forevermore – Amen.17

Elias Boudinot

PRESIDENT OF CONGRESS; SIGNED THE PEACE TREATY TO END THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION; FIRST ATTORNEY ADMITTED TO THE U. S. SUPREME COURT BAR; FRAMER OF THE BILL OF RIGHTS; DIRECTOR OF THE U. S. MINT

Let us enter on this important business under the idea that we are Christians on whom the eyes of the world are now turned… [L]et us earnestly call and beseech Him, for Christ’s sake, to preside in our councils. . . . We can only depend on the all powerful influence of the Spirit of God, Whose Divine aid and assistance it becomes us as a Christian people most devoutly to implore. Therefore I move that some minister of the Gospel be requested to attend this Congress every morning . . . in order to open the meeting with prayer.18

A letter to his daughter:

You have been instructed from your childhood in the knowledge of your lost state by nature – the absolute necessity of a change of heart and an entire renovation of soul to the image of Jesus Christ – of salvation through His meritorious righteousness only – and the indispensable necessity of personal holiness without which no man shall see the Lord [Hebrews 12:14]. You are well acquainted that the most perfect and consummate doctrinal knowledge is of no avail without it operates on and sincerely affects the heart, changes the practice, and totally influences the will – and that without the almighty power of the Spirit of God enlightening your mind, subduing your will, and continually drawing you to Himself, you can do nothing. . . . And may the God of your parents (for many generations past) seal instruction to your soul and lead you to Himself through the blood of His too greatly despised Son, Who notwithstanding, is still reclaiming the world to God through that blood, not imputing to them their sins. To Him be glory forever!19
For nearly half a century have I anxiously and critically studied that invaluable treasure [the Bible]; and I still scarcely ever take it up that I do not find something new – that I do not receive some valuable addition to my stock of knowledge or perceive some instructive fact never observed before. In short, were you to ask me to recommend the most valuable book in the world, I should fix on the Bible as the most instructive both to the wise and ignorant. Were you to ask me for one affording the most rational and pleasing entertainment to the inquiring mind, I should repeat, it is the Bible; and should you renew the inquiry for the best philosophy or the most interesting history, I should still urge you to look into your Bible. I would make it, in short, the Alpha and Omega of knowledge.20

That's just a smattering.

http://www.wallbuilders.com/libissue...es.asp?id=8755

I'm more committed to the Constitution and ideas than the real estate . As long as there isn't a better place with a better Constitution I'll continue to be anti-PC and argue with Liberals. State's rights seems to be the best bet for now.

In your case, for sure. ;)

I'd suggest reading the Federalist Papers....the group below American Political Science Review...is a non religious affiliated lawyers org. They drew numerous ideas and cultural legal aspects from the Bible etc. without direct reference.

“A study by the American Political Science Review on the political documents of the founding era (1760-1805), [reported] that 94 percent of the period’s documents were based on the Bible, with 34 percent of the contents being direct citations from the Bible. The Scripture was the bedrock and blueprint of our Declaration of Independence, our Constitution, academic arenas and heritage until the last quarter of a century.”

The Capitol building was used as a Church for years...
http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/rel06-2.html

Western Culture of which Judeo/Christian philosophical tenets and traditions were but a part.

Richard :munchin

Agree, many influences....buy the Judeo Christian element was a key factor IMO.

Key for what? As Dusty said, most were Christians. This doesn't correlate to the USA being a Christian Nation. The docs are all that matters. Anything you read into them is as fallacious as those that say the 2nd amendment only applies to the National Guard.

The "Christian Morals" predate Christianity by some time...

If you look into each of the ten commandments and even the teachings of those in the New Testament, the ideas were already in place. Take this example:

“Do not do to your neighbor what you would take ill from him.” – Pittacus
“Avoid doing what you would blame others for doing.” – Thales
“What thou avoidest suffering thyself seek not to impose on others.” – Epictetus
and finally...
“Do to others as you want them to do to you.” Luke 6:31

These were not new concepts and their usage in the documents that frames our nation does not imply religiosity on the part of our nation but rather a continuation and a progression in thought to make the World better.

Muslim
 

Well, according to some highly elected officials this is a Muslim Country.

Ok, you choose not to take the Founders at their own word...good on ya.

The Country was predominately Christian for the first couple hundred years, and the laws were based on the Ten Commandments.

I've noticed the farther away from the routine and standard tenets of Judeo-Christianity we get, the farther down into the slime pit of aberrant behavior we slide.

It's abnormal to be a practicing Christian, now. Now, normal is two people of the same sex getting married, females trying to be Infantry Officers, Jesus on a Cross in a glass of piss, late-term abortions, crap like that.

This Country's going to hell in a handbasket.

Made in China

And what laws might that be? The laws permitting slavery and the fugitive slave laws? The ‘Jim Crow’ laws? The laws denying women’s suffrage? The Eugenics-based forced sterilization laws? The laws forbidding interracial marriage? The laws interring Japanese-American citizens in WW2?

Is it? http://www.census.gov/compendia/stat...es/12s0075.pdf

Christian - 173M
Other Religions - 9M
No Religion Specified - 34M
No Response - 12M

Is it? Same sex marriage is allowed in only 9 of 50 states, and 39 states prohibit it either by statute or in their constitutions.

Is it? Of soldiers and Marines applying for Infantry training, how many females have applied?

Is it? An art exhibit by Andres Serrano in the 1990's exhibiting two series of photographs, of which Piss Christ was one work in one of the two series, which used kitchy Christian and Classical statuettes photographed through plexi-glas containers filled with urine, supposedly the artist’s own, is the ‘norm’?

Is it? According to the Guttmacher Institute which tracks such matters, 88 percent of abortions occur within the first 12 weeks of pregnancy, with only 1.5 percent occurring after 21 weeks' gestation.

Is it? :confused:

Richard :munchin

Hmmm. I think that this might be a stretch...

Is it? :confused:

Richard :munchin[/QUOTE]


I'm still waiting for the artist to reprise with a "piss Mohammed".

Then we will see a 1st Amendment trial (perhaps by fire) for sure.

TR

This country was not founded on the 10 commandments. The basic principle in which the 10 commandments were formed was much older. Obviously there will be parallels. Now, even if it were, does this make it a Christian nation or simply one that chose to utilize mores and memes that they wished to emulate?

Translated literally, לא תרצח means don't murder, and is elaborated on in Jewish law as "do not take a life wantonly - without reason"; in an instance of a legitimate(legally recognized) need to take a life, i.e. killing an animal for food, killing in defense of oneself or those around him/her, or aborting a fetus that is an immediate physical threat to the mothers life, these actions are not merely permitted, but legally required in most cases.

MOO: The basis for the slippery slope argument is the foundation of one's moral value set.

When one looks to a divine/higher power/God given set of moral and ethical values, while they may be flexible with regards to circumstance, the parameters are defined, and ultimately static. Simply put: who are you, a mere mortal, to define and/or modify these values given by a higher power.

On the other hand, when one looks to his fellow man to define these values and principals, even with the best of intentions, and using commonly accepted values; the inherent danger is that someone, anyone, can gain enough common acceptance to modify these values: the common is what becomes relative. In the extreme, "morally" justifying the eradication of an entire race.

That said, while one can argue that the Founding Fathers drew on Judeo-Christian teaching and philosophy, they were also very opposed to a state religion. My understanding is that many of the morality laws were left to the states, and in this case, should be judged strictly from a legal standpoint. If he violated a law, he should pay the price, if not, let him be. As for Columbia, whatever their internal moral and ethical policies are come into play with regards to Mr. Epstein's continued employment.

Lastly, as an observant Jew, my views and opinions of incest are obviously partial, however, like QP MTN Medic, I subscribe to Oliver Wendel as well in practice: I do not "shop" my religion on others, nor do I expect others to go out of their way to accommodate my religious practices. Conversely, I expect others to refrain from preventing my observance and attacking(i.e ban on circumcision) my religious tenets. Essentially, my religious observance "ends at your nose" and your non-observance "ends at my nose", and both of our practices are within the bounds of law/constitution.


My .02

Not endorsing what the colonies were doing, but let's have a look at the instant replay...

http://undergod.procon.org/view.reso...?resourceID=69

Personally - I miss Aaron Sorkin's writing for this program.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1-ip47WYWc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUwm6WJRPIQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqLIH2UiPXg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jWOamlD9_8

Richard :munchin

When I was a kid growing up in Texas, we didn't even lock the doors to anything-house, car, tools, guns-whatever. We had a latch on the screen door so the wind wouldn't blow it open. My dad had a .22 in his truck. We were hunting by five years of age. "Damn" was considered profanity in a movie, and there was no nudity. Everybody worked for a living, and if somebody needed help, everybody pitched in 'til they got back on their feet. People obeyed the Ten Commandments, and those who didn't got in trouble with those who did. You could trust a man's handshake.

You and Richard can't convince me moral relativity is good for the Country, because I'm old enough to have lived through the changes as moral standards have declined.

Slippery slope
 

Used to be back in the old days that a young single girl who got in a family way was not looked upon to kindly by the local population.

The young lady would disappear for a while to have the child and put it up for adoption or have an illegal abortion somewhere.

Nowdays things are different.

For society as a whole has the change been an improvement?

They went to live with Aunts in the Big City ;)

Society as a whole is a shit sandwich compared to the norm of post-WWII up until the hippies (progressive leftists) appeared.

Joining this discussion late due to an awesome drill -- four days on the ranges of Ft Knox.

"Of course I just owe almost everything to my father. He brought me up to believe almost all the things I do believe."
Margaret (The Iron Lady) Thacher. PM UK RIP

Absent from the comments is the recognition of the influence fathers have on how a daughter develops in her self-image, self-control, and self-confidence. Considering this; my first question is, "Was the daughter really capable of truly giving her consent to the sexual relationship with her father?"

Life seemed pretty much like that for us growing up out here in the farm country of NorCal, too, but growth has had an impact on that bit of nostalgic myopia, both my growth to adulthood and the population’s growth here in the area.

Returning home to visit over the years, I discovered that it wasn’t quite as rosy as my youthful sense of memory had seen it and I learned things, like why one family had been much less a pillar of the community than we kids were led to believe or why a classmate had gone to live with relatives her sophomore year of high school and so forth. There were a lot of secrets our parents were aware of and kept from us kids.

Yes, there were a lot of things going on that we weren’t aware of as kids and discovered as we grew older, but the basic rule which applied no matter what your religious views (Christianity and Buddhism were the major religions around here) was the so-called “Golden Rule” of “ethical reciprocity” which has a history amongst the world’s cultures long predating its adoption by Judaism and Christianity. It was practiced by my father and those he chose to associate with out here, it was expected of us, I expect it of my sons, and since moving back here permanently, my wife and I have found that that ‘rule’ ("law'?) and the promise of a handshake still holds true for many here in the valley.

For example, when I needed a section of leaking roof replaced this winter, I asked around the community and was put in touch with a local roofer who had learned and inherited the business from his father. I didn't know him, but he knew my brother and our family. He came out to look at the roof, explained what was wrong with it, sent me an estimate, and I called him to ask when he could get to it. We set a date and when I asked about a down payment, he told me to just pay him when the job was done. It took 2 days, I helped him because I wanted to see what he was doing and learn how to do it, and I paid him the agreed upon fee when he was finished. There was no contract, and he gave me a receipt and a warranty on it for a year. He's stopped by twice since then just to check and see how the roof was holding up during the recent rains.

On another point - since when has Hollywood and the film industry reflected but a Potemkinsche Dörfer view of our or anybody else’s society?

http://www.bgsu.edu/departments/thea...age102156.html
http://www.pictureshowman.com/articl...censorship.cfm

A side note - I had to keep my dog at bay while typing this response this morning as she was looking out the front window and badly wanted out so she could go after this rooster pheasant feeding out in the front pasture about 30' from the front porch and teasing her with his crowing (attchd pic).

And so it goes...

Richard :munchin

Good point, but there are exceptions. Delta Force, starring Chuck Norris and Lee Marvin was on last night. Potemkinsche Dorfer? I think not...:D

Wait until this one's released - it's called "Oh...CRAP!" :D :D

Richard :munchin

lololol :D

The same society that practiced segregation, and also hid/shunned/warehoused it's mentally ill, and handicapped. So yes, in the opinion of this FOG change has been a vast improvement. The "good old days" weren't quite what they are made out to have been.

Apples and oranges.

I like to look at things through the filter of what I imagine Col Robert L. Howard would affect. I'm a big fan.

I believe he would think segregation and warehousing the handicapped would suck just as bad as some scumbag tupping his own daughter.

I wish i'd lived there!
 

These days even little gems like Amarillo are infested with meth addicts and crack heads, quite sad. Dusty I wish I'd lived in THAT Texas, but I'm with Richard, this 'Hell in a Handbasket' view which is so popular in modern churches only serves to prevent ppl from taking any restorative action because of the common consensus that the situation is completely fucked, is meant to be that way (the decline of our entire planet is predicted so the underlying message is its futile to interfere), and its a sign that the Janitor upstairs is soon to show up with a mop and scrub the filth away via Revelations.
As nice as it is to have a religious cannon irrefutably proven, I don't find the inaction, or this alleged 'mop' to be a very healthy outcome for our nation.
Having never seen 'your' Texas,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dMoK48QGL8

I have to say I'm still extremely happy in my ignorance of what it could be. God bless America and Texas!
:D

(spoken by a pantheist)

I wish I'd lived in Texas in 1870 cuz I read a lot of books by Louis L'Amour and William W Johnston.

I listened to stories my grandparents and father told me of life in Texas when they lived there; read Larry McMurtry and his tales of the Hat Creek Cattle Company and Livery Emporium crew; and saw the Disney versions of "Texas John Slaughter," "Pecos Bill and Sloughfoot Sue," and "Old Yeller" - I was pretty happy living in Texas when I did. ;)

Richard :munchin

Maybe to you it's apples and oranges, but it's the same (holier than thou) society that was fostering all terrible practices....while banging their neighbor's spouses.

Didn't that same society which shunned those pregnant young women also frown on divorce?

I remember those days, and I'm happy that I'm getting a chance to live in what you consider "a shit sandwich", because it is in my opinion a far better place than your "good old days".

Do you really hold the founding fathers in as much disdain as you sound like you do?

comparitive flavor studies...
 

I remember those days, and I'm happy that I'm getting a chance to live in what you consider "a shit sandwich", because it is in my opinion a far better place than your "good old days".[/QUOTE]


as much as i resent those poor miserable meth addicts.. being black or gay should never be a hangable offense, well said sir. Even though i'm a straight cracker, i guess i'll take the raised average level of Nacirema douche-baggery for the freedom of enlightened views.

It's done wonders for your disposition!
I've never met a lib who wasn't just plain miserable.

lol Well, here's a present. Every Lamour book you've ever read distilled down to one page: :D

The man who called himself Bruce wore a black, flat-brimmed hat held low over the green eyes of a fighting man, riding a line-back zebra dun he‘d trained from a colt, with two .44 Russians tied low and a Winchester in the hollow of his arm like he was born with it. He was big in the shoulders, slim in the waist, with riders hips, and stood well over six feet in his socks. He was hell on wheels in any kind of a fight, with hands hardened from swinging an axe and a single jack

Rita was voluptuous with green-gold hair, and she was all woman. She took the blackened coffee pot off a fire made with mesquite, the little smoke it made was filtered through the branches of a gnarled, ancient cedar.

Brock Bannister held his gaze on Rita, from under beetling brows and above a flat nose in a lanterned-jawed face, and took a swallow of his coffee. It was hot as the back corner of hell and strong enough to float a horseshoe.

“Bruce will be here soon,” Rita breathed restlessly, her breast heaving under the grey traveling dress she wore. “Then he’ll cash in your chips.”

Bannister smiled and stood up to his full six foot six frame, stretching his back, and grinned through yellowed, broken teeth. “If he does, I’ll break him in two,” he said.

Just then, Bruce stepped out of the shadows, slipping the thongs off both pistols. “Want an even break, Brock?”” he asked, his eyes unsmiling.

Bannister spun, whipping out a pistol and shot twice, the first burning Bruce’s scalp, the other taking him through the flesh just over the hipbone.

Taking his time, Bruce cut the corners of the tobacco tag over Brock’s pocket, both shots sounded as if one. Bannister’s eyes glazed as his mouth worked, trying to say something, then he stood up on his toes and fell over into the dust, on his face.

Bruce woke up later and looked down to see the bandage on his side, and felt the one over his ear. Suddenly Rita appeared with a cool cloth.

“I don’t like to dress a man’s wounds unless I’m married to him.”

“We can do something about that,” Bruce grinned.

Only L'Amour book I read was "Last Of The Breed" - it's a great read...maybe because it doesn't have anything like that summary in it. :p

Richard :munchin