Attention!

All hands hear this.

THE WAR IS OVER.

YOUR SERVICES ARE NO LONGER NEEDED.

ALL MILITARY PERSONNEL WILL NOW REPORT FOR REPROGRAMMING AND OUTPROCESSING.

EXCEPT THOSE OF YOU SELECTED FOR WAR CRIMES TRIALS.

That is all.

TR

Forgive me of constantly trying to back our troops. Sometimes they do stupid things, but they also are embracing the suck. Ergo, as they fight the war overseas, and I fight the war here at home, I try to prevent them from being the centerpiece in a very toxic political environment.

Maybe all I should have said was "no excuse".

Typical reply coming from an analysts

I remember when we had some guys in Group who were reenactors in the WW2HRS, including the LSSAH ( http://www.lssah.com/kt2.html ). I was looking into joining, too, but - ironically - came down on orders for Bad Tölz (the pic in the link shows the SS-Junkerschule at Bad Tölz which later became Flint Kaserne, the HQs for SF in Germany), left and never joined.

The guys who joined the LSSAH reenactors studied the history, traditions, and tactics, and wore the uniforms and equipment when participating in reenactment gatherings. Some of them were of Nordic ancestry and some just interested in the history, but I never saw anybody sport any symbolic Nazi tattos of a swastika or siegrunen.

I did meet a number of former members of the WSS during my time at Tölz and some of our guys were avid memorabilia collectors, but nobody wanted to be seen as being associated with Nazi philosophical ideals. For my part, it was both interesting and informative to sit and talk history and tactics with men who had literally spent years fighting the Soviets on the harsh OstFront - which would have been our enemy and AO if the 'balloon' had ever 'gone up' for us then.

We had a team patch made which incorporated the image of a medevil teutonic hunting dagger (which was also used by the SS), replacing the image of the vertical knife of the SF SSI to symbolize our being stationed in the former Junkerschule - but the Siegrunen and Nazi eagle were replaced with the atomic energy symbol relative to our team's focus (atchd) to prevent any misperception of our intent.

I did see such Nazi symbols and tattos while growing up - they were being used by overtly racist groups and hardcore motorcycle gang members.

It amazes me that any member or organization of the US military would think it was OK to condone or sport such an image, or claim they did not understand any of the symbolism associated with it. :confused:

Anybody check those historically challenged scout snipers to ensure they don't have their blood type tattoed under their left armpit?

And so it goes...

Richard :munchin

Marines, they're just special. :D
Whenever we have some of them transient and they get liberty and go out in town they never fail to raise the bar on stupid. :mad:
Alas, if I had a penny for every time I had to work my butt off to keep theirs out of trouble with the local LEO's I'd be a gatrizillionaire by now.
Common sense seems to become every day less common.

You just out did your self Pat. The perfect pic!

RF 1

I respect what you're saying, and I *almost* agree with the first sentence.

I come from a different universe, through time and space. (OK, time). ;)

If I weren't fearless, I'd find that second sentence almost scary. I do find it inaccurate and offer the below.

I drove a wrecker, on call at night, while I was in H.S. Took a call and turned over a flipped pickup truck that had seven very intoxicated teens, including two of my cousins.

One of the passengers was crippled by the accident, losing the use of his left arm and seriously affecting the use of his left leg. Later, he became handicapped, then disadvantaged, then impeded, then challenged. After that he was disabled and then differently abled. Wait, maybe he was challenged between being disabled and then differently abled. It's impossible to keep track.

During a long overdue HS reunion I sat down with an old friend and Johnny Walker. We decided that there were groups of Ivy League sophomores jerking American chains to see how obedient we were, possibly Yalies changing us to one term, then challenging Harvard to affect a faster change in "approved terminology" than the one they had instituted. The more Johnny Walker added to the conversation, the more we leaned toward figuring it was a conspiracy by liberal professors.

The following day with Jim Beam, we observed tradition and blamed everything on
women. (though I am still wary of Yalies). :D

I am one of the vanilla majority. Grandpa looked at the back end of a mule for 12 hours during the summer while grandma breast-fed the babies. They didn't think of alternating duties. Sorry about the lack of advancement opportunities for women during that era.

I wore the uniform of the US Army for 12 years. I did not operate Elmira Prison and did not fire a weapon at My Lai. Neither did I drop bombs on Hiroshima or Nagasaki.

During my combat time, I delivered prisoners wherever I was told, even to the infamous "White Mice". I think of them as the Vietnamese SS. YMMV.

All my baseball caps say "Army" along with whatever other witticism or boast that's included. I even put on the old field jacket as an "identity assist" when at gatherings where the vets often wander off together for "were you there when" sessions.

The symbol means what it means to ME.
And, I claim the right to be just as disobedient as the "poor me" groups.

Any person who decides to be offended by past events in my army's history....Anyone (especially reporters) who decides that MY symbols mean I am proud that prisoners starved, and that civilians have been killed...

Can look at the skull and crossbones on my hat until my fist obscures his vision. :p

That's fine, but there are ramifications. I don't believe "off the record" exists in nature. People will form perceptions of you, most of whom don't know you based on your appearance, actions, job, vocabulary, etc, and once an impression is formed, deserved or not it will affect and follow you.

Consider someone who locks their keys in a car three times in one day, most of us would think that's pretty dumb. Say perception is Sarah Palin is an idiot, and Einstein was a genius. If each of them locked themselves out of their car three times in a day, people for this very same act would cite this as evidence, that " wow that Palin sure is dumb" but "wow that Einstein is such an absent minded genius".

or put another way on the " Common Sense Tips for Life List"

"Unless you are cool being associated with Nazis, don't get your picture taken posing next to a flag with SS runes."

falls somewhere between,

"flossing is a good idea"

and,

" don't get your wife a vacuum for Xmas." ;)

There's another option.
 

Persons can contribute to a political sensibility in which a specific armed service is out of step with the values of the society it is tasked to protect. This sensibility can lead to the slashing of budgets and a growing disregard for that service's readiness as other services rise in the public's esteem. In the 1890s, navalists hinged their argument for a modern, ocean-going fleet at the expense of the army which they painted as a symbol of administrative inefficiency and operational incompetence.

Similarly, after the Second World War, the air force successfully challenged the navy's role as the service best suited to deter war and to project power at the strategic level. After the Vietnam War, the air force's focus on "deep battle" reflected its effort to supplant the army's role at the operational level. This effort was hastened by the abrupt end of the U.S.-Soviet rivalry, and the 'triumph' of air power in the Second Gulf War which 'proved' the revolution in military affairs. In each case, air power enthusiasts insinuated that the navy and the army symbolized anachronistic forms of warfare.

If certain groups of warriors want to claim that it is their prerogative to take a postmodern approach to history in its selection of rituals, traditions, and symbols while averring that civilians are over reacting, that's their choice.

However, these warriors should not then be surprised if civilians decide to make lasting changes in how America fights its wars. Or who does the fighting.

(And also, the logic that interested parties should not take notice or offense of how others interpret symbols undermines significantly the intellectual and political opposition to the current president and his supporters. If the symbolic significance of the American flag is in the eye of the beholder, then no one should have a problem when people decide to burn it. Likewise, if the Constitution symbolizes different things to different people, then what's the harm of taking an a la cart approach to the Bill of Rights?)

My $0.02.

I understand where you're coming from but there is a norm in society and within that norm there is right and wrong. Would it therefore be okey for me to walk around with a AQ logo on my shirt in the states? Certainly not because of what AQ represents and what it means not only to americans, but society as a whole globally.

Yes, it may be acceptable in a country like Indonesia or some middle eastern countries to be seen wearing such a logo but by in-large, in almost all 1st world nations, espcially those who suffered dramatic destruction and huge losses of life, the SS symbol means what it means and that is a direct link to the nazi party.

I may be wrong in my opinion but that's how I see things in general. I do stand to be corrected if my points are wrong but saying "people can damn well accept me and my way of thinking if they like it or not" has its limits when its applied to certain situations.

What the marine scout snipers did/have been doing, if it is true they have been doing it for the longest time is, morally, wrong.

And if you were looking for more excuses for the media to point the finger at the USA as an example of a country that "hasn't got a clue" or "being totally ignorant of something so blatantly wrong" or "they have done it again"....this would be it.

This and the peeing on the corpse....I mean, what is seriously up with these people?

That's what I ask myself..."what is WRONG with these people's heads? Are they that uneducated or morally screwed up?"

I am not in the military and never have been and am speaking frankly from a civilian point of view.

If I may go off topic for a wee bit, there is an incident in world soccer that is going on at the moment and is controversial.

Two soccer players. A guy from Uruguay called Suarez, one of the best soccer players at the moment and scores tons of goals for Liverpool.

And a french man called Evra who is a person of Color and plays for Liverpool's fiercest rivals, Manchester United.

An incident happened during a derby match between both sides in which the word "Negrito" was used by Suarez to Evra.

An official complaint was filed after the match by Evra against Suarez for racism and eventually, after investigations, Suarez was handed a 8 match ban and didn't appeal the punishment despite the fact he claimed consistently it was normal in his country to call a person of color that word and that it was acceptable and alright.

Now, you have a uruguyan and his counterparts stating it is a norm in their country against europeans who were outraged he would even try to justify that it was alright to call another person such a word in this day and age and put it down to stupidity and a lack of common sense.

Public opinion has been against Suarez except if you're from Liverpool and a scouser who seem to think Suarez did no wrong.

So, Liverpool play Manchester United again last night and as the teams line up to shake hands, Suarez purposely walks past Evra and doesn't shake his hand causing yet another flash point as it seemed Evra had put his hand out to shake hands perhaps to get past this incident....and it has become a hot topic all over again.

Does the use of the word constitute a norm culturally that is acceptable to some, but not to others?

Hmmmmm..
 

A few basic questions..:rolleyes:

The symbols mean what they mean.

The death head and SS runes are what they are and are very distinct. Nazi symbols are distinct and as a history major and avid student of world history these symbols only mean today what the Nazi's used them for. Military or civilians that have collection's of military memorabilia does not make you a Nazi but when you demonstrate them as these kids did it only sent a message that they wanted to send. I have collections of many DUI's from WWI friend and foe and since then does that make me a Nazi? NO

The Marines 1st investigation was a cover your ass and now they are doing a proper one and I am sorry to say heads will roll

The Skull and Cross bones that most people see now today are associated with Pirates not the WSS. The very unique Scull and Cross Bones from the WSS is not the Pirate symbol and would never be confused for one so that argument will not work.

The Nazi symbols also as noted have been adopted by skin heads that also do not meet our societies and the US Military's moral social and moral convictions so did they not know what they were doing? Bullshit.

Plato your argument does not hold water…….You must have slipped through the system at the lower Hudson school for wayward boys. If you truly think that it is ok to demonstrate and advocate the use of these symbols then you need to relook at things and doo some studying.

Bad things happen throughout history and it is our job to not repeat them and improve this crazy world we live in. We can not go back and change history but we can make the future better because of how we study and understand history. Do not repeat those errors that affected humanity so profoundly and that are what the Nazi movement represents past and present. I do not condemn all German people and their collaborators but we have to make sure that that movement does not rear its head again.

The bottom line is that Marine unit need's to be looked at. The naive youth excuse is not holding water in my book.


This is my 5 cents

Anyone here who has never done anything stupid or that would reflect negatively on your service step right up and grab a rock.

The rest of us were lucky that there were no digital cameras or internet before we wised up or got out.

TR

An Iraq vet, now a Holocaust expert, explains why he exposed Marines' use of an "SS" flag.

Richard :munchin

Marines Nazi-Flag Whistleblower Comes Forward
MJ, 11 Feb 2012
Part 1 of 2

When Marine investigators learned last November that a scout sniper platoon in Afghanistan was using a Nazi "SS" flag as its standard, it wasn't a member of the unit who told them. It was Iraq war veteran Waitman Beorn, a visiting history professor at Loyola University New Orleans, also a Fulbright and Guggenheim fellowship recipient who teaches at the National Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington. Dr. Beorn's research on Nazis and genocide is informed by his military background: He is a West Point graduate and former officer who served as a scout platoon leader in Iraq from 2003-2004. Through his work he seeks to teach "ethical decision-making in a military context using the Holocaust as a vehicle."

Shortly after I first wrote about the flag controversy last week, Beorn got in touch to explain how and why he chose to report the incident to the Marine Corps' inspector general. (Though Beorn contacted military authorities, he didn't play a part in the incident's recent unearthing by the media.) For one, he had learned through military contacts that the use of the 'SS' flag was not an isolated incident. He hoped that exposing it could lead to an important "teachable moment" that might help alleviate what he considers to be a serious issue. In an email interview, he shared with Mother Jones details of how the Marine Corps responded to him, and how the Corps has since addressed this moral education issue with the troops. He said he was disappointed with the emerging media narrative that the military had responded poorly. "I was surprised by the speed with which they acted and the seriousness with which they appeared to take it," he wrote.

But he also emphasized: "I think our public needs to realize that this is not a case of the 'liberal media' going after our brave men and women in uniform. Symbols are important. They send messages. These messages are important." He explained his special interest in the SS incident with regard to military training, and what he thought would be the appropriate punishment for the service members in question—especially during wartime. In a follow-up email he wrote: "My focus is on the importance of positive unit cultures, and that the use of this image highlights a problem. For example, I was just informed that a Marine posted on a blog that he had had the tattoo for 17 years, which seems to highlight this point for me."

The following email exchange has been lightly edited for clarity.

Mother Jones: How were you made aware of the photos?

Waitman Beorn: A colleague of mine received it from a friend associated with the Marines. It was forwarded to me via email with a bit of background.

MJ: What were your thoughts on them, both as an academic specialist in Holocaust studies and as a former scout platoon leader?

WB: I was disappointed and saddened. Our military's image has been sullied of late and it was really disturbing for me to see that certain members were choosing the SS (which is in my mind the epitome of evil) as something to admire, at least its imagery. My work, as you may have noted from my CV on my website, focuses on the German military in the Holocaust, and this was particularly disturbing in that context.

As a former officer, my first thought was: Where were the NCOs/officers? This didn't seem to be taking place on a remote patrol somewhere. I have since learned that the use of SS runes is not an isolated phenomenon. Even if the Marines themselves didn’t know what the runes meant (which I can't really believe), someone did and allowed it to happen. (Note: you can find that exact flag online with the description: "7180. ss double runic flag, a favorite and well know [sic] ss flag, 3' x 5' $7.50" It is displayed on a page literally surrounded by Nazi memorabilia.) What this tells me is that those in command didn’t consider this to have been a concerning issue. That is what troubled me.

I was in the cavalry...We were perhaps not an elite unit, but we had a proud tradition and considered ourselves elite, at least in the armor community. We wore Stetsons and spurs. So I understand the importance of symbols to unit cohesion and culture. This, perhaps, made the choice of the SS runes all the more troubling.

MJ: What did you expect or hope would happen when you contacted the Marines' inspector general?

WB: First, I wanted to them aware of the situation. I contacted the inspector general because they are the ones most likely to deal with the situation.

MJ: How did things proceed from there?

WB: I was quite pleased with the response I got from the [colonel in charge of the First Marine Expeditionary Force's investigative office]. He seemed to be taking this very seriously and searching for those involved, as well as in educating the other scout snipers about the inappropriateness of this. I thought that using the incident as the basis for a class in the 1st Marine Division was an excellent response. I do want to highlight the response of the IG here. I was surprised by the speed with which they acted and the seriousness with which they appeared to take it.

The only part of the Marine Corps response that is a little troubling is the automatic assumption that these Marines had no idea what symbol they were appropriating. For example, from CNN: "They determined that the Marines in the photo were ignorant of the connection of this symbol to the Holocaust and monumental atrocities associated with Nazi Germany." I have a hard time believing that. One or two Marines, okay. But all of them, including their leadership? Also, the comment by the spokeswoman that they couldn’t have known because that's not what Marines are about seems hard to believe, as does the revelation that this is NOT an isolated incident.

(cont'd)

Marines Nazi-Flag Whistleblower Comes Forward
MJ, 11 Feb 2012
Part 2 of 2

(cont'd)

MJ: Amid all the media hubbub, what do you hope is the upshot of this, culturally?

WB: I think this is a highly teachable moment about the creation and maintenance of positive unit cultures and environments. This is exactly the kinds of discussions we have with cadets at the USHMM using, not coincidentally, the German army in the Holocaust as a teaching example of how negative command climates and unit cultures lead to atrocity. The idea, in a nutshell, is that when a unit orders, condones, or allows dysfunctional behavior (particularly racist, overly brutal, etc.) in the small things, this can metastasize into much larger violence including war crimes. See the Army "kill team" in Afghanistan.

Moreover, I think our public needs to realize that this is not a case of the "liberal media" going after our brave men and women in uniform. Symbols are important. They send messages. These messages are important. It doesn’t matter what the intent behind the use of the symbols was or what the snipers intended them to stand for. Some symbols simply have pretty solid meanings. For example, the swastika was not always a Nazi symbol, sadly. But no one would look at its use now and assume it was a reference to ancient India and that it was unfair to criticize whoever was using it. As a historian, of course, I would say this is another reason that knowing the historical provenance of images and ideas is important.

MJ: Any thoughts on an appropriate action to take with respect to the platoon with the flag? Or more broadly, what should be added to every servicemember's training and development?

WB: It appears to me that there are two extreme positions being taken. One seems to call for heads to roll (i.e. calling this a "felony"). The other seems to argue that these men are in combat and should not be punished because of the rough conditions they are in and that this is a tempest in a teacup. The latter position takes at face value that they had no idea of the provenance of the symbols which, as I said, I find incredibly hard to believe.

As far as appropriate action, certainly this depends on facts of the case not available to me. I think the education aspect is incredibly important. Not just about the racist symbols themselves, but about the choice of unit mascots, symbols, etc. Particularly given the complex battlefield in Afghanistan and the necessity to gain the support of the local population. The actions of the lowest-ranking servicepeople in this global environment can have huge strategic importance (Abu Ghraib, kill team, urination incident).

And this does not mean that being sensitive to this is an attempt at being overly PC or touchy feely. One of the reasons we don't execute prisoners, for example, beyond the more important reasons of morality and the law of war, is that such behavior makes the enemy fight harder, causes higher casualties for us, and makes the mission harder.

That being said, do the lower-ranking Marines need to be court-martialed? Probably not. Are there non-judicial punishments and remedial training that would be appropriate? I think so. As for the higher-ups, the senior NCOs and officers involved, the standard must be higher. These are the ones who create positive (and negative) climates.

Again, do they need to be in prison? No, especially given the other incidents of late which ARE of more severity. Do they need to be made an example of? Probably, depending on their level of knowledge. Can this be career ending (i.e. letter of reprimand)? I think so. But again, I think it depends on the facts of the case. I do think the Corps needs to go further than simply saying that no one had any idea what the runes meant (particularly if this has been a longer term issue that has never been brought up). They need to make more details public.

http://motherjones.com/politics/2012...leblower-talks

Richard

Thanks for the post....

Are we seriously advocating criminal action against these Marines? Are we going to go down the road of investigating our troops for perceived political offenses? In that case, we ought to just institute Politruks and Commissars to ensure political correctness in our Armed Forces. (But wouldn't that be follow the example of another murderous regime?)

This symbol appears to have been a part of Marine Scout Sniper culture for a long time. In fact, a buddy of mine has the very same symbol tattooed on his body. Members of my family were exterminated by the Nazis in Ukraine. Am I then automatically offended by this symbol? No, because I understand that it has positive meaning to some who fight for this country.

This appears to be another case of political and cultural self-flagellation fueled by the MSM and academia. Since the American sheeple have abandoned their civic obligation to defend their own country to the 1%, they have also abdicated a moral right to dictate what symbols help to raise morale and create unit cohesion.

How so? Has there been an era in US history since WW2 when the results of this story would have been any different? 1955? 1965? 1975? Let's say you laud "the good old days" of the 1950's no PC back then, " the I like IKE" era, I'd wager if this story had hit back then the backlash would have been even greater from the millions of US vets who had served and lost buddies in the ETO.

You might be too young to recall the heat Ronald Reagan took for just placing flowers in a Bitburg cemetery where some of the interned were SS soldiers.

RE: Post #59 - YGBSM! :eek:

Richard :munchin

I think this is way overblown, and is being stretched in every manner possible. I could be completely wrong, and these Marines are pure evil skinheads who deserve to be locked up for a long time. They're not. I have a hard time believing that these brave and proud Marines collectively and wittingly choose a symbol associated with a defeated and evil regime to align with and pay tribute to. That’s a joke. This isn’t some anti-Semitic allegiance or statement. If they wanted that they would have went for the black and silver. I think these are young Marines who think the scout sniper “SS” in the shape of lightning bolts looks good. They are proud of their service, and I am proud of them.

Much in the same manner as someone said before, regarding the two letters “s” in the Kiss emblem. Gene Simmons is Jewish and his mother was a holocaust survivor, the letters had nothing to do with a Nazi tribute. Nor was it a "fail." They were made to look like lightning bolts as a form of art.

Why slam these Marines for this, and why is are we even paying attention to this and once again diverting our attention and resources? While we’re at it, why not slam every owner of the "people's car"; Jewish owners included. Wasn’t that also a nationalist symbol of an evil regime? I highly doubt anyone thinks about Hitler, Ferdinand Porsche, or the Third Reich weapons of destruction they created and the lives lost when they turn the keys of their Jetta or Cayenne these days. Is it anti-Semitic to drive a Porsche or a Beetle? Or has enough time passed for that one and it doesn't matter if a VW was indeed created by a horrific being and his Nazi "professor"? I guess we'll let that one slide.

There are ten Marines in that photograph.
Plus a photographer.

I will assume that at least one of them is a Sergeant (E5) or higher.

And none of them knew the origin of the insignia?

As they say on the radio show "Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me" that comes under the heading of: "Things you should have learned in high school, if only you had been paying attention."

This may be a situation of "pure heart, empty head."

It's the 'empty head' that bothers me.

YGBSM - American military personnel, direct representatives of our government, society, and national ideals, sporting tattos and displaying a flag which symbolizes the absolute worst of Western cultural development..."overblown"...I disagree.

The Importance of Images to America's Fight Against Violent Jihadism

It is difficult to overstate the importance of images, particularly in a war waged against an enemy so focused on violence employed for its use in propaganda. It is disappointing that, a decade since 9/11, we seem to need to constantly relearn the lesson of how deep a self-inflicted wound can cut.

http://www.strategicstudiesinstitute...dism/2012/1/24

Richard :munchin

Thought you guys might enjoy this perspective. Saw it linked from the SWJ.

http://mcgazette.blogspot.com/2012/0...pervision.html

I concur that sometimes we (the military) do not see the forest through all the trees. The presence of regulations, guidelines, powerpoint classes can never make up for the absence of leadership. We don't always need to be told what is right or wrong by the media, or politicians, or our higher ups or our regulations - what we need is for true leaders to stand up for common sense and decency.

I think I have already done at least 24 hours this fiscal year on mandatory training. Sexual Harrassment and Rape Prevention, OPSEC training, Computer Training, Defense Travel System Training, Citibank Training, probably three full days of on-line and attended training. Probably another six hours trying to get the training documented in a database.

Why do you think that training is mandated and recorded? Other than to check the block and cover someone's ass?

Because someone did something stupid that they should have known better.

Will telling people not to do something, stop people from doing it?

Not in my experience.

But they will damn sure not be able to say that they were not told.

The next Marines who piss on corpses, haze new personnel, or pose with Nazi icons will be hung out to dry.

TR

Symbols and meaning: http://terminallance.com/2012/02/10/...-insspiration/

You're offering a curious argument. Among other things, it suggests that you do not have a problem with those who find inspiration in the symbols of the Nazi dictatorship because the meaning has "been changed." By offering this argument, you are displaying a frame of mind similar to those who think it is all right to use a specific epithet referring to blacks because the spelling has been changed and, therefore, the significance of the word and the history of America has been transformed through the magical power of MySpace.

Moreover, you are arguing that the armed services should not be subject to civilian authority. Yet elsewhere, you bemoaned the possibility of the armed forces serving as a laboratory for a "grand social experiment."

So, did your initial umbrage stem from the concept of experimentation itself, or are you hoping to use the armed services for a different type of experiment altogether?

.

I hope that my apparently humorous approach to a serious topic translates reasonably well, as it would if we were actually using voices. I take myself with a grain of salt. I prefer an exchange of opinions with a smile. It was "the norm" in my fathers family, and worked very well for all of them.

And, I follow sandbox rule #4. If I don't respect somebody, I don't play with them.


You're supposed to forgive the way my sentence is put together. I am phraseologically disadvantaged.
And, from my allegories, you should gather that I am saying "My hands aren't totally clean either, nor are the collective hands of any military force." Check your hamstrings. It's a long leap from there to "I approve". :confused:
Also, I wouldn't use the word "allegories" except that I'm running one of Sigaba's posts through a decoding program. That, and other strange/cool words are popping up. ;)

1. I have, during my lifetime, seen about half the norms change. Sometimes todays norm seems better, sometimes not. However, 50 years from now a lot of todays norms will be "obviously wrong".
2. See Chevy Camaro. Actually, if I painted on the old 1960's peace symbol, formed a group and we committed atrocities, is it a peace symbol, or a symbol of atrocities?
3. I don't see "morally wrong". I see "badass" in a way that could have been better stated. I watched young black marines on cable as they went through sniper school. I don't think they are Nazis. YMMV

Sigaba,
I have only one disagreement with what you said here. I counted the $10 words separately, and I believe this is your $1,790.02 worth.

As for your other points, I can only respond "Huh?" :)

You're a QP and this is your house. I respect both.

Ignoring your response would be rude however, therefore......

I respectfully submit the following.

There are probably a couple of hundred soldiers who would disagree with an assertion that I should have never been commissioned. At least a couple dozen of those are very qualified and respected QPs who knew me from working side-by-side.

That sounded more like a .45 firing instead of a perhaps more appropriate kick to the knee.

I understand the issue these Marines sporting symbols like Runes or the Totenkopf symbols. But considering Hitler and the Nazi's were statistically out performed by the likes of Mao Ze Dong and Josef Stalin, and no less heinous that Hideki Tojo and Japan I question the motivation of the now Holocaust Expert.

Would the Holocaust Expert have blinked an eye if the flag symbolized Mao, Stalin, Tojo, Pol Pot, Che or any other of the cadre of maniacs of the 20th Century?


SS Rune, MS13, KKK or Black Power Fist tattoos? Are any more acceptable than another?

I don't know, but ask Anita Dunn!

Based on long personal experience, I'll say this:

The scout sniper community uses the SS symbol because its "badass" and it shares the same initials. It is not an advocation of the german national socialist party or any of their associated acts. They found a symbol and repurposed it.

The seals wear pirate flag patches. They are not advocating butchery and robbery on the high seas, nor paying tribute to Blackbeard. It looked cool and the took it.

Those of you equating the use of this symbol with moral statements are misreading their use in this context. Maybe we should take a hard look at all of the "assasin company" commanders, or units with callsigns like Gladiator.....after all that might be advocating slavery and forced combat for entertainment.

These marines are guilty of bad situational awareness, nothing else. For everyone who wants to make statements about twenty year old marines, in combat, acting at all times as public representatives of the government to the body politic, and the urgent need to punish them judicially..... I will say that in my humble opinion, you haven't been near a front line unit in combat in a long, long time.

We know the symbol and recognize it because we’re ancient and we’re seeing this through our lens. Everyone recognizes a swastika and it’s association because that is what is universally reinforced with Nazi’s and their ideology. That SS symbol is not reinforced and in people’s faces today. Is that specific symbol taught in HS before these guys enlist? (Seriously, I’m asking) It wasn’t for me, and I’m old and retired. Those who served in Vietnam were 20 years removed from that regime and it was a bit more fresh in the minds. That would be like those serving today remembering the symbols and associations from the 1st Gulf War, 20 years ago. Flip the coin from the dark side to the good side and ask a young guy what the patch of the OSS looked like without Googling it. I doubt you’ll get a correct answer from most. When I see someone sporting the confederate colors I assume they are proud of their Southern heritage, not that they want to reinstitute human slavery. Of course it can also in context be used as a symbol of hate. Why are we not spinning up about all the different brands or logos that use the sig rune? Runes were around long before the SS. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/ancient...-in-runes.html

Leadership always needs to step up, set the example, and be accountable. That’s not even a question. I just don't think they did this with the intention of being anti-Semitic and associating themselves with the SS. I was on a deployment where a guy from NSWU-2 was a very good tattoo artist and brought a kit with him. A bunch of team and support guys all got black tattoos depicting the head of Anubis. It was a company espirit de corps and bonding thing, and not some maligned intent or devotion to the pharaohs and ancient persecutors of the Israelites. It had nothing to do with failed leadership. Yes, I think this whole thing is blown way out of proportion and the MSM will get their mileage from it while they can.

Not to diminish the atrocities of the Nazi's but it is said that History belongs to the victors, and with that in mind General Curtis Lemay once said, that had the U.S. lost the war, he fully expected to be tried for war crimes.

I think the key to this is cultural context. For instance, if I go to an Asian country swastikas are common place. It has completely different meaning. On the other hand, the Japanese Rising Sun here is kind of a 'cool' little thing. I've seen guys paint parts of their Japanese cars in this. But if I was in Korea, this would be a heinous symbol identified with years of imperial conquest and war crimes. At the same time the SS symbol in most Western culture is a symbol of heinous war crimes and white supremacist.

I'm also surprise to see so many throw out the idea that enlisted men are ignorant. I could of flown this flag in the cages at 1/75 and I guarantee at least half my platoon of young ignorant enlisted men would have called me on it. I can guarantee my entire platoon has seen Band of Brothers, and 90% of them have seen American History X and likely these Scout-Snipers have as well. No, that guy was not a Scout-Sniper, he was a white supremacist. This isn't about history. You guys might be ancient, but these symbols are part of popular culture.

Comparing the SS symbol to the Jolly Roger makes no sense. People that had to worry about that flag are no longer among the living. Pirates have been romanticized. So have Southern 'rebels.' Again cultural context. The swastika and the SS are still symbols of evil in our culture. I guarantee these men knew what it meant. Did they care? No. Should they be punished? Probably not if it's been ingrained in Scout-Sniper culture for 30 years. But these guys are still plain stupid for flying it and I am kind of about punishing stupidity. Maybe in a 100 years we can start rocking SS symbols, but it's too soon.

MOO posts #9 and #39 by QP Longrange1947 greatly undermine arguments that the use of the symbol is only about the morale of the Marines' sniper community and is therefore merely a well-intended mistake that can be explained simply by the phrase "they did not know."

Sorry, I beg to differ. Which asian countries specifically, please?

Since this "SS" flag has obviously been used as a symbol of USMC Scout Snipers for 30 years, I find myself wondering, why NOW, do we become horrified that these terrible Marines dare pose in front of a flag symbolizing the Nazi culture? Cultural context does not even come close to defending it in my humble opinion either. Those are American Marines, not Asian Marines. A swastika, the rising sun, or a pointy white hood might mean a hundred different things in obscure parts of the globe...
...Americans know the meaning that those symbols presently reflect.

However, where was the outcry every time such a picture like this has been taken in the last thirty years? Is this REALLY the first picture that shos scout snipers in front of such a flag? Are we just now noticing that the Marines have insidiously cultured a three decade long plot to bring acceptance of Nazi culture into the mainstream under the cover of being 'scout Snipers?

Or... have we always noticed that it was a Nazi symbol, and just didn't care? Is it because now that the Marines have been filmed urinating on dead savages, we feel morally repulsed and obligated to finally say something about the Nazi symbol on the scout sniper flag?

I don't know the right answer. I know how I would deal with it in my own unit and I wont be discussing that in this forum. I like the comment made in an earlier post - some folks will look at a picture like this and go "these dirt bags haven't shaved, and look at this punk with his hands in his pocket"
...and completely gloss over the "SS" right in the center of the photo. Is that the problem or is that just another symptom of a bigger problem?

What does that say about our current leadership climate? Are we really looking at the root cause of the problem? Are we leading troops and administering discipline based on sound bytes and video clips that make to MSNBC or the cover of the NY Times? I hope not. I hope we are treating our Soldiers, Sailors, Marines and Airmen based on simple standards of good order and discipline. Media based leadership is going to bite us all in the ass if we aren't careful.

Metaphorically, lets apply medicine to the situation... if this picture was a "cough" does it just need cough medicine or should we step back and find out what disease process is causing the cough?

...maybe ten years of Afghani dust is just irritating the throat?
...maybe the cough is a symptom of the flu?
...maybe the cough is because there is a full blown case of TB

Robitussin ain't gonna cure tuberculosis.

Again, we like to hide behind the "ten years of combat" however, there is no way I can be convinced that every Marine in that picture has spent the last ten years in combat. A few of them look like they may have even gone to a high school prom sometime in the last five years.
Ten Years in combat my ass. The photo was deliberate. Maybe they fully understood, maybe there were a few of them that really did not understand the implications... after all, its the scout sniper flag.

So... who is at fault? The platoon leader, the photographer, the guy that allowed the photo to fall into the hands of the media?
...or is it something that EVERYONE in uniform needs to work on?

Again, I dont know the real answer, I just know that things don't look right to me.