The question is...
 

The question for most people is "As what point do I decide to become a law breaker?"

Most every American wishes to live in peace and within the law. They try to follow the local, state and Federal laws the best they can.

The laws for storage, ammunition, license, fees, etc are getting so complex that the average citizen is going to trip up one day.

With the coming laws - the same thing - the more complex the laws the easier to turn someone into a criminal.

Each person will draw the line in a different place.

Death by a thousand cuts.

Exactly. And if they are smart, they will not announce when and where they drew the line on a public forum.

Good, I wouldn't expect you to become one, either.

As I recall, when operations are conducted behind the OPFOR's FLOT, then one usually attempts to remain undetected by the OPFOR, even though you may be creating chaos in their AO. I would suggest this operation is no different. TR has graciously identified the OPFOR (i.e. anyone who would enact and enforce such laws).

What about us who have sworn to defend?
 

So to the other members of the armed service, what do we do? When do we say that the enemies of the Constitution are governing us? That document is something I hold dear to my heart. I have a book on my desk that is the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence and my troops must read it within the first week they are working for me. So my concern has become one of where do I, as a member of the Armed Forces, draw the line? I have an idea, but what I do after that line is hit, I'm not sure what to do.

-Thin ice here I know, especially on an open forum.

As a member of the Armed Forces myself, I would have to say the time to draw the line would be when they give you orders that defy the constitution. That would not be considered a "lawful" order. The oath we all took had that part "To protect and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic." When that line is crossed you'll know. Revisit the antics of the Gestapo.
I for one am not going to stand idly by, and watch my rights that my predecessors fought and died for go the way of the dodo. I'm an active NRA member, I instill the knowledge of our rights and freedoms to my son, I vote, and I exercise my first amendment right to my congress critter/local delegates. If everyone did that, someone might listen. The arrogance and ignorance of our fearless leaders astounds me. Back in my lane, out.

A good example of what can happen to individual and collective rights is illustrated in The Gulag Archipelago by Solzhenitsyn. He discusses how the overwhelming majority of people went into decades of forced labor, torture, and death with almost no struggle. This all starts with the erosion of th 1st and 2nd ammendments. Its why they are not the 12th, or 13th amendments.
I would encourage people to read the above book. It is a good example of something to be avoided at all costs. Unfortunately, it is a loooooong slow read.

I would caution you on making any decision based on what you believe to be a "lawful order". Whether or not an order is lawful is not your decision, but the decision of your Court Martial board, should you decide not to obey the order given.

I can assure you, that if an order is given with respect to enforcing an enacted law, it is lawful until the SCOTUS decides otherwise, not you.

Your best, first line of defense is to ensure no such law is enacted. After that, if you are not willing to enforce it, then I would highly suggest leaving the military or LE organization in which you belong.

In reading the book Get Selected, it was stated (and I am paraphrasing) that the lone wolf dies off, while the pack survives. If people are not willing to band together and wage the political battle against gun control, while the price to be paid is in time, money and effort, why should one think that they will band together to fight when the price to be paid is in blood?

The political left in this country has shown a remarkable ability to organize themselves, rally the media, communicate their position to the populace, and make their will known at the polls. Unless gun owners, and to a greater extent those who oppose a socialist/tyrannical state, begin to effectively fight the political battle, we will lose.

While it would be difficult to accomplish, what would you do if they amended the Constitution?

The folly of gun laws banning firearms or ammo is that it is political stunt and if it were put up to a vote of the people the anti-gun nuts would lose hands down.

I disagree.

"It is for the children. Who needs military style assault weapons? Who needs a magazine holding more than 10 rounds. Why are there "cop killer" bullets for sale? Close the "gun show loophole". Who needs a .50 caliber weapon anyway? Put an end to Saturday Night Specials. Who needs small, easily concealable handguns? Who needs large, high-powered handguns? Who needs "sniper" type weapons with high powered scopes? Why are gun owners not licensed? Why are bullets not ballistically fingerprinted? Why are they not serial numbered? Why should we allow the sale of automatic weapons? Why allow people to buy ammunition over the counter without a license? Why do people need so many guns? Maybe they should be taxed. Why not ban the sale of small caliber handgun ammo? It is only used by the criminals. Why do you need a shotgun that holds more than three rounds? Why not require a means tested license for firearms owners? How can we allow people to carry guns around concealed? It just leads to more violence? Why does anyone need to buy a gun the same day? A waiting period would be a good way for them to cool off. Why does anyone need to buy more than one gun per month? Why do we allow those dangerous ranges here? A bullet might hit my house. Maybe we should ban them, I hear that they are contaminated with toxic substances, like lead and mercury. Why can you buy silencers today? No one uses them but the Mob and assassins? Why should we allow the sale of hollow point and dum-dum bullets? Why do we have so many gun dealers? Surely some of them are doing something illegal? Let's put some of the "bad" ones out of business. Why do those people need so many guns and so much ammo? Send someone to investigate and arrest them."

These are all themes that have been proposed by the anti-gunners and the MSM. Spun properly, any of them could pass a public referendum by the majority in this country, despite the clear agenda and outright conflict oif some of the arguments.

The end result, as the anti-gunners want, is a gradual erosion of 2nd Amendment rights, culminating in a complete ban on private firearms ownership in this country.

This is their idea of a compromise, as they would greatly prefer an immediate repeal of the 2nd Amendment and the confiscation of all guns and ammo.

You don't need to repeal the 2nd Amendment, you just need to chip away at it with legislative and legal decisions until it doesn't mean anything anymore.

TR

I wholeheartedly agree. However, the battle is all but lost. The left has an IO campaign second to none. They have control of the media with only one vestige left for conservative expression (AM talk radio) and they are attempting to quell that outlet. They will silence the opposition. They are firmly entrenched in the public education system from primary to post-secondary. They control the labor organizations. And now, they control two of the three primary branches of government. Thanks to former POTUS' actions such as Lincoln, FDR, and Truman, they have precidence for subduing their opposition through Presidential order. All it will take is some form of internal threat (i.e. terrorist attack or econmic collapse).

I'm not saying give up. However, at some point, we will have a kinship to the Spartans.

Respectfully KClapp it sounds to me like you are giving up, let me ask you a question, does your congressman and senators know how you feel, have you expressed your views to them in a respectful manner, how about the members of Congress considering the H.R. 25? If you're not part of the solution you're part of the problem. Even though all the things you said may be true we still have one thing that the Dims/Commies/Left wing wackos/ and tree hugging hippies don't have on their side, the constitution and that is a very powerful force, coupled with over 200 years of history of gun ownership I still think we've got the upper hand. This fight is far from over, but it will end much quicker and go very badly for this nation if good folks like you give up.

Just my .02

I was basing that on the 2008 polls regarding the 2nd Admendment where the over whelming majority of those polled agreed it was the individual right. But when looking at it from your perspective I see your point, and if put to a national popular vote the result might well replicate the 2009 POTUS Election results.

Put forth this Brady propaganda (interesting they pick DC) and it would sway some people when hyping the effective range. But they fail to mention the prohibitive cost and the unlikely chance of any Average Joe can pull off a 1000 yd shot with a 50 Cal..

http://www.bradycampaign.org/xshare/...calibermap.pdf

I find it interesting that most of the guns crimes listed on the Brady site occur East of the Mississippi and West of Colorado. It also seems that the vast majority of this incidents are in Democratic States.

http://www.bradycampaign.org/facts/highprofile/

The legislative misadventure which occurred in my state brought me up out of my chair. I have always left the politics to others- too busy, too tired, didnt want to go to the fundraiser or the dinner. I can guarantee you that this trip around the track I will be much more involved. I would encourage all who can to allocate some of their time and money to making sure the right people get in at the local level and taking it from there. They at least have to worry about bumping into you at Wall-mart and having to explain their vote.

Exactly!
 

BryanK pretty well hit it on the nose. Don't try to mince the "defend" part with following the orders part while they are both vital to the Oath but you must defend the Constitution first against illegal orders (counter the Constitution), Bless us all, Blitzzz.

Duly noted. However to clarify what I meant by not adhering to a lawful order would be in the instance of Uncle Sam telling me to go door to door ransacking houses to claim Citizens arms by any means necessary, or something to that effect. That would be a very clear violation of our rights as US Citizens.

Yes, they do. And I have written them on matters concerning more than just firearms ownership. One of them has an automated email response that pretty much tells me, in a very politically-correct manner, that my views are irrelevant to him as he knows what is best for me.

Yup, same as the senators. And my congressional representative knows better than me what is best for me also. Just ask him.

To demonstrate the futility of writing your representatives, consider what happened with the first bailout bill. Reports indicated that the correspondence received from constituents was overwhelmingly against the bailout. But the constituents were ignored. We have a problem Houston.

It's a powerful force only if your view of the Constitution is supported by the majority of the SCOTUS judges. The fact that the two primary political parties try to stack the deck within the Supreme Court, in order to get rulings that support their political ideology, tells me the Constitution has been relegated to near irrelevance.

I'm sure Leonidas and crew understood their situation. I know I understand mine. While my cause may be lost, I will die with my boots on and standing, because I believe in what I'm defending and my honor demands it.

Unfortunately, just such an order can be made both lawful and Constitutional given the right conditions.

Have to disagree with you on this point, sir.

Maybe around my camp we are dilusional, but we still write to our local newspapers and elected officials, when they make the wrong call.
Believe that it is Our duty as American citizens, to challenge, cry-foul, and make Our voices heard, when those represented to serve us and
(you, Our brave soldiers), are outta line.

JMHO,:munchin

Holly

These are the same dims who "promised" bipartisan talks across the board on all legislation. Hold the presses! Their first major bill through Congress is being forced through with - here's the shocker - ZERO Republican support!

http://www.latimes.com/news/politics...,2499691.story

:rolleyes:

:confused:
:munchin

It most certainly is a responsible citizen's duty. Frankly, it is also my God-given duty. However, there is no requirement, other than force of arms and the ballot box, for our so-called representatives to listen. The force of arms is off the table, for a number of reasons. The ballot box is slow and can be manipulated by propaganda and fraud, as this last election demonstrated.

I'm far too pragmatic to believe my stand will amount to anything. I'm also too much of a warrior to just quit.

-------------------------------------------------------------

Copied below from another site. thought it would be interesting to add to what is already posted.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To ALL,

This must be put out to ALL Local, STATE, and FEDERAL Legislators. This Legislation must be stopped. Please insure this is sent to every Hunter, Gun Collectors and Recreational Shooter.

The Second Amendment MUST be respected and not rewritten by the left as they have done to American History. Our ability to Self Defense MUST be respected.

This post will be before 25,000 individuals within 24 hours. Keep it going until this attack on Americans is stopped.

John C.

Redding, CA

Look it up on snopes: http://www.snopes.com/politics/guns/ammunition.asp

Ammunition Accountability Legislation.
Remember how Obama said that he wasn't going to take your guns? Well, it seems that his allies in the anti-gun world have no problem with taking your ammo!

The bill that is being pushed in 18 states (including Illinois and Indiana ) requires all ammunition to be encoded by the manufacture a data base of all ammunition sales. So they will know how much you buy and what calibers. Nobody can sell any ammunition after June 30, 2009 unless the ammunition is coded.

Any privately held uncoded ammunition must be destroyed by July 1, 2011. (Including hand loaded ammo.) They will also charge a .05 cent tax on every round so every box of ammo you buy will go up at least $2.50 or more!

If they can deprive you of ammo they do not need to take your gun!

This legislation is currently pending in 18 states: Alabama, Arizona, California, Connecticut, Hawaii, Illinois, Indiana, Kentucky, Maryland, Mississippi, Missouri, New Jersey, New York, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Carolina, Tennessee, and Washington.

Send to your friends in these states AND fight to stop this Bill from being passed!!!

To find more about the anti-gun group that is sponsoring this legislation and the specific legislation for each state, go to: http://ammunitionaccountability.org/Legislation.htm

You can mark SC off the list, this legislation died last year with 0 cosigners, none of the politicians in my state dared to attach their name to that garbage :p. As for the rest of the states I don't know but at least we will keep our bullets in SC. Of course I've been looking online and you can't find much ammo right now, everyone’s buying scared (and there's nothing wrong with that considering the political climate)! :cool:

I am sure it will be presented again, but I believe Missouri nixed that a year ago.

We sure did!! (Born resident of Missouri, just stationed in Colorado)

ammo ban
 

How would i find out about Kentucky?

KClapp,

Very good points, and it will be interesting to see in the coming weeks how many gun rights the current administration will attempt to dissolve. Speak up and speak out loud, IMHO.

Phantom, a google search just performed rendered ten pages to links on gun laws state-by-state. :munchin

Holly

Pennsylvania
 

In PA, this was introduced as House Bill 2228. The only action that was taken on it so far was that it was referred to the Judiciary committee. I'm going to dig a little deeper when I have a chance and try to find out more, but hopefully it died a quiet death, never to be seen again.

Are you familiar with Google?

How about the NRA?

TR

Minor case with major implications:
http://www.saf.org/viewpr-new.asp?id=286

This could lead to the incorporation of the 2nd Amendment.

I prefer to read rather than post, but these are my observations of this matter.

Americans love being COMMUNIST, as long as they get to call it Democracy. The US Constitution has already been rewritten, and a new government has been established for well over a hundred and forty years now. Every amendment after the tenth, and various foreign treaties, has resulted in the systematic destruction of a free, reverent, and sovereign self governing people, and replaced it with a godless tyrannical oligarchy of reprobates. America has been under Martial Law since the 1860s. Thus, the Bill of Rights is irrelevant, as it has been supplanted by the 14th Amendment.

All ten planks of Marx's manifesto have been implemented, and institutionalised, in America. America isn't somewhat socialistic; America is absolutely communist. What is more pathetic is that Americans truly identify with these communist institutions as being the "American Way." And, like good little communist, they send their children off to the local Dewey Camp for indoctrination to be socially engineered, and systematically demoralised. Then when it comes time for the Trotsky Mind Laundry, Americans actually fork out tens of thousands of dollars of their hard earned money for the advanced level Party indoctrination. Americans pretend its education, but if it were education they would actually be literate enough to understand the US Constitution, and other ancient landmarks. And, of course, from birth to the grave there are mega doses of Tell-us-o Vladamir. Can the Communist Commissars be anymore obvious? Its called TV PROGRAMMING!

Will American's eventually make a stand against tyranny? Sure, as soon as their Communist Commissars outline and define the tyranny so they can go get their Right to Bear Arms Against Tyranny Permit from the Sherrif, and pass the I'm a Good Little Communist background check. And, as we all know, Americans with all their firearms ever ready to defend America, puts fear into any nation daring to think of invading her borders. Yeah, thats why FORTY MILLION criminal foreign nationals have invaded America claiming RECONQUISTA! An invasion force of over FORTY MILLION foreign invaders is occupying American soil, and there are still Americans out there wondering when will the SHTF? Stop the Insanity. Susan Powter, where are you? And, as the American patriots cry "MOLON LABE," take note, the Communist Commissars don't need to come and get your guns, because Americans will never use them. GUN LAWS ARE JUST ANOTHER DISTRACTION! America fell long ago without firing a single shot.

Sorry, Comrades, but Americans haven't the stomach for liberty. Slaves never do.

Arwr

Hmm.:rolleyes:

More tinfoil, anyone?

TR

Has someone not taken their meds today?;)

Makes me wish I had invested in ALCOA. ;)

Richard's $.02 :munchin

Holy $hit, I am getting double teamed by John Wayne. I repent, I'm sorry Duke. I didn't mean any of it. Really. LMAO.

Arwr

"Cop Killer"
 

Could you define a "Cop Killer" bullet? Can you name the types of ammunition that would be banned if a "Cop Killer Bullet" law was passed?

Your second section above is - lets just say interesting.

Special Services?

I know most of the guys on this site are Special Forces qualified.

I'll wager that there are damn few that are "Special Services" qualified; I may be the only one. What a distinction!

Oh, just showing I know the difference.

distorted:

Your name defines your knowledge of firearms and ammunition.

This is the second post in the past 24 hours where you have showed your ignorance, and pretty much parrotted anti-gun and anti-2nd Amendment propoganda. Your insinuation that SOF might be involved is equally out of place.

I recommend that you read all of the 2nd Amendment arguments here and educate yourself before posting again on this topic.

The next post of this nature will relieve you of any further posting burdens on this board.

Move out and draw fire.

TR

distorted
 

Just a Note: All those other "special Service" troops you mention have not Sworn to Uphold and defend a Constitution. And we all Have not forgotten that Oath. Blitzzz

distorted,

I'm not near as nice as The Reaper, you are done posting for the next six months. (Check out your title, you post before that and you're gone.)

Consider yourself in a read only status.

Team Sergeant