Even more than attempt to teach LEOs, I think the whole mindset of the times when Fairbairn, Sykes and the Col. came up with point shooting was defensive. There was a big fear of a Nazi invasion of Britain. In addition, what agent would intentionally start a gunfight?

Also, as we have discussed, Fairbain and Sykes developed most of their systems while members of the Shanghai Police, so it all makes sense.

OK, no more until I read the Col books!

TS

(I’m not reading anything with Janice as an author, in my book he’s a wannabe that has tied his wagon to a real legend.)

Point Shooting

"In zee name of zee Fuher, stop zee train."

"You are looking much like zee Ameri-can. Give me zee papers!"

"BAM BAM!"

"RUNAWAY!"

If you don't want to see Janich, don't get Bullseyes Don't Shootback - he's the demo for all the photos.

Shooting to Live is a pocket book and I like it better. The information in both is the same.

It will work, I think, but it goes against the grain of what we already know and I think will cause development of some bad habits for our business. probably very good to teach large numbers of people to defend themselves in a very short time.

I'm sticking with flash sight - I'm already so fast doing anything else wouldn't be fair.:lifter

I'm going to go out on a limb here, a really big strong limb. I believe that Col. Rex Applegate would enjoy the hell out of this thread. I know he was always looking for a better way to use a handgun. His interest in this came from personal experience. NDD is exactly correct about why Col. Applegate taught point shooting. The reason Col Applegate took his point shooting and turned it towards law enforcement is that cops were getting their ass kicked in close quarter gun fights across the nation. In Col. Applegates own words to me, "There are always the gun nuts in a police department, these are the guys who take a great interest in training to shoot and learning about firearms. Many other cops recieve poor training and can't shoot under stress, this is shown in the incident reports in many big police agencies across the United States." Cops were losing too many gunfights for the Col.s taste so he decided to turn what he knew about shooting towards law enforcement. This was a late development in his life, I know this because, at Col. Applegates request I re-did his WW2 drawings of point shooting from soldier to cop for publication in the police magazines.

On behalf of Col. Applegate, I'll thrown in ONE Harsey Custom Titanium bottle opener (from the Harsey Dept. of Clandestine Operations) to the winner of this competition. Be sure the beer payment is bottled.

hhmm.......

Where will this competition be & when will it commence?

Maybee we could make a day of it?

mp

I'll check with Team Sergeant and see how big his backyard is...

I can attest to the quality of this very HSLD beer opener and as usual, can post pis, if desired.

No serious gear collection would be complete without one!

TR

I'm sure it's a very high quality opener, but please, don't post a picture of the after effects. :D

Talking about the opener but not showing pics is as frustrating as a fan dance!

Since you asked nicely....

With one of Mr. Reeve's Sebenza folders.

Very nice combo.

TR

That's the latest pattern titanium opener. Note the chisel front for light prying of the shoe polish can lid or emergency screwdriver work. I haven't tried carrying one of those thru an airport yet, maybe it would be ok with a round end.

I think you credit the TSA employees with too much intelligence, and I cannot afford to have it confiscated by a former minimum wage 7-11 employee now wearing a badge.

Here it is in a native habitat. For you 10th Group guys.

TR

TR, close, but I'd prefer the background to be a Paulaner dunkel weizen. ;)

Guess you can go thirsty here then.:D

Closest I have. I am sure that you can find the Class VI Store.

TR

I like beer.

Let's see, for you, my brother, I have assorted cans of Coors Light, bottles of Bud, Yuengling Light, Yuengling Black and Tan, Dundee Honey Brown, Warsteiner, and of course, Guinness.

All cold and waiting.

Got some fine whiskey here as well, if you ever get back up this way.

I think AM and Bill can vouch for the quality of the potables here.

The 10th Group guys can stop by the store on the way and get whatever exotic crap they want.

TR

Yep.

Looks like that would work well for opening cans of dip too.

I want one, Mr. Harsey. Please PM where I send my money and how much!

Sounds kind of like CPR training for laymen. You know they'll probably screw it up, but at least try to get them to do something useful when an emergency happens. Better than nothing.

I like the Salvator, personally.

TR's home sounds like a cache of great gear and beer, among other things.

I have the video of the original OSS movie made at the training ground. Quite a good piece on point shooting. Not like layman CPR at all.

RL, I've seen some of the training films from the OSS days because Col. Applegate told me to sit down and pay attention while he played them The one that sticks in my mind is that of point shooting being done with trainee using a .45 auto firing tracers. This was impressive because while the shooter was moving and engaging targets as directed by the instructor, we can watch the tracers bore into target after target at a good rate of speed. This was not beginning shooting.

I look at the WW2 era as an important step on the evolutionary chart of shooting. Knifemakers are about third from the left on the other one.

Actually, that's where I get my fix nowadays. :) Sorry, I admit that I'm a bit of a beer snob, but after living a while where they've been brewing for over a thousand years and have it pretty much figured out, I got spoiled.

I just put two seperate pieces of information together. One of the things Rex Applegate taught was to face the target (threat) head on and look where you want the bullet to go, raise the handgun to eye level and shoot when the gun reaches the target. I just remembered a statistic that my longtime knifemaking student and friend quoted me (long time cop, swat team leader, tested gunfighter), He said that in close up shoots that the cops often missed while bad guys shot the cop in the face because that's exactly where they were looking. The advantage of using police statistics is that No. 1, they get in shooting situations. No. 2 the incident reports are public knowledge which means we can study and quote them. QUESTION- When you guys are trained well enough to be good at flash front sight, doesn't it just become shoot where you look?

Interesting and very relevant I think. We have to be careful, as we're getting close to the line - but you see this very often in students. When they first get over the fear of the weapon and actually start shooting, they will often hit the part of the anatomy that they were instructed to check first. In addition, there are numerous stories of weapons being shot out of the bad guy's grasp. This isn't good shooting, its shooting where you are looking and being more than a little lucky.

I wasn't trying to in any way demean Flash Front Sight. I'd just had a thought...

LOL - and a good thought it was. I mean the OPSEC line.

Got it.

I dont think thats good enough for offensive combat.

To elaborate on what NDD has already said, we are of course trained to check the hands prior to engaging, but if one is fixed there and not trained to focus on the front sight on the desired point of impact, he will shoot the bad guys hands.......thus leaving a still very alive threat in the fight.

From my own experience I can say that when I've engaged targets, and dont physically remember seeing front sight, my shots are not where I would have liked them to be. So in every AAR of a shoothouse, stress fire, or Critical Task Evaluation, I always inquire about what the shooter remembers seeing. Most of the time, they dont remember the front sight, (as is the case with most real police gunfights). To me this means we spend more time on the range workign fundamentals...

just my .02

mp

You won't.

There lies a world of difference between defensive and offensive shooting. The same goes for the mindset involved.

Excellent post! I even chant it under my breath when I'm working. Little whisper to the CQB Dieties - "Front site, front site, front site - BLAM!" LOL. Good rythm aid for a white boy that can't salsa too.:D

Love to Point shoot
 

Point shooting is all I ever trained on. I know it my seem I'm limiting myself but I have always been taught to keep my eyes on the target not the sights. My old man was always training us for in house shooting, hence the importance on point shooting.

I love it myself. The only reason I ever look at my sights are in low visability, (and that takes about a split second) to make sure the weapon is leveled. At night we tend to shoot high so that is the only reason I do it. In "serious social work" missing your target sucks, what even sucks worse is you missed because of the time it would take to aquire target acquisition. Which brings me to my next subject.

I just started using Ghost rings on my Glock and .45. They allow you fast target aquisition with both eyes open and as long as you have the area of aquisition within the ring you will more than likely hit your target. I am not a big fan of using sights unless I'm behind my SAKO TRG41, but these Ghost rings are very good. I know their not knew but compared to how I have been shooting they do make a difference in my thinking towards sights on hand guns.

LarV

And therein lies the problem. "More than likely" ain't sat in our world.:munchin

Right your are Doc
 

Tushae NDD,

Right you are. Just my opinion of them. Im a sure that with more time on the range, that quote can be cleared right up.

L5

Re: Love to Point shoot
 

You shoot with one eye closed when using standard sights on a pistol???

Re: Re: Love to Point shoot
 

I do and it works quite well for me.

But then again, what do I know.

TS