Who was the POTUS then? :munchin

TR

How ironic, considering the legacy of her husband's presidency.

Yep, that's about right - I left 12th group in late 91, I think they shut down in early 94.

I missed the deactivation ceremony for 11th Group because I was in OCS at the time. That was July 1994.

The official decision predated that, and was made by a cabal of (i) some Clinton appointee to Deputy Undersecretary for Reserve Affairs (a woman who I think was a former Aspin staffer), (ii) Bin Peay, then VCSA, (iii) the director of the Army National Guard Bureau (a MG whose name escapes me) and (iv) the Chief, Army Reserve (a MG whose name escapes me). The first three basically ganged up on the last one.

SF wasn't the only issue in the off-site agreement (what they called the deal). The big issue was the combat arms vs. CS/CSS realignment. Peay seemed indifferent to reserve component combat units to begin with (probably because of Desert Storm). The Guard wanted its combat units for tradition's sake and because the governors needed bodies for state mission. Of course, the Guard also wanted its CS/CSS units, because many of these - medical, aviation, engineers - were valuable for state missions, especially disaster relief.

When Congress reviewed it, the DUSD seemed out of her element on military matters, and Peay ran the show. The commander of 12th Group lobbied heavily against it, but the then-commander of 11th Group basically spent most of his time looking for his next job.

So a drop of about 785,000 to 598,900 in the Bush Administration, and 598,900 to 480,000 in the Clinton Administration.

When President Reagan left office, the Army had 18 divisions, with 48 active maneuver brigades. Six of these divisions had roundout brigades from the Guard or Reserve. There were also three separate maneuver brigades and three armored cavalry regiments.

When President Bush left office, it had dropped to 14 divisions, with 36 active maneuver brigades and 5 roundout brigades. There were also two separate maneuver brigades, two armored cavalry regiments and one cavalry regiment in transition to light cavalry.

When President Clinton left office, it was 10 divisions, with 29 divisional maneuver brigades (no roundouts) and one separate brigade (172nd, nominally attached to 10th MTN as its third brigade). Another separate brigade, the 173rd Airborne, had been stood up in 2000, but only had 1 battalion until 2002. Plus one heavy and one light ACR.

Well that wasn't a very detailed response on my part. For more detail:

As noted, Reagan's Army reached 18 divisions - 1st, 2nd and 3rd Armored; 1st Cavalry; 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, 24th and 25th Infantry; 10th Mountain; 82nd Airborne and 101st Airborne (Air Assault). Of these, several weren't at full strength when Bush was inaugurated. 1CD, 5ID, 6ID, 24ID and 10th MTN only had two brigades, with their third being a roundout brigade. 2nd BDE, 9ID had just been deactivated in 1988, to be replaced by a roundout brigade.

When Bush came into office in January 1989, as noted above, the active Army had 51 maneuver brigades:

• 1AD: 1/1, 2/1, 3/1
• 2AD: 1/2, 2/2, 3/2
• 3AD: 1/3, 2/3, 3/3
• 1CD: 1/1, 2/1 (roundout was 155th ARMD BDE, MSARNG)
• 1ID: 1/1, 2/1, 3/1
• 2ID: 1/2, 2/2, 3/2
• 3ID: 1/3, 2/3, 3/3
• 4ID: 1/4, 2/4, 3/4
• 5ID: 1/5, 2/5 (roundout was 256th IN BDE, LAARNG)
• 6ID: 1/6, 2/6, (roundout was 205th IN BDE, USAR)
• 7ID: 1/7, 2/7, 3/7
• 8ID: 1/8, 2/8, 3/8
• 9ID: 1/9, 3/9 (roundout was 81st IN BDE, WAARNG).
• 10MTN: 1/10, 2/10 (roundout was 27th IN BDE, NYARNG)
• 24ID: 1/24, 2/24 (roundout was 48th IN BDE, GAARNG)
• 25ID: 1/25, 2/25, 3/25
• 82ABN: 1/82, 2/82, 3/82
• 101AASLT: 1/101, 2/101, 3/101
• 193rd IN BDE
• 194th ARMD BDE (roundout was 2-136 IN, MNARNG)
• 197th IN BDE

Various changes took place before, during and after Desert Shield/Desert Storm:

• The brigades of 1AD were inactivated in 1992, and 8ID's three brigades were reflagged as 1/1AD, 2/1AD and 3/1AD.
• 2/2AD was inactivated in 1990, 1/2AD was reflagged to 1CD in 1991 and 3/2AD was inactivated in 1992. 1/5ID and 2/5ID were reflagged as 1/2AD and 2/2AD in 1992 when 5ID was inactivated.
• 1/3AD was inactivated in 1991, and 2/3AD, 3/3AD and the division as a whole were inactivated in 1992.
• 1/1CD, 2/1CD stayed intact, while 1/2AD was reflagged as 3/1CD, giving 1st Cav three active brigades.
• 1ID's 3rd Brigade was deactivated in 1991, and the 218th IN BDE (SCARNG) became roundout.
• 3/2ID inactivated in 1992 and the 81st IN BDE became 2ID's roundout brigade.
• 2/4ID was inactivated in 1992, replaced by 116th CAV BDE (IDARNG).
• 5ID was inactivated in November 1992, with 1/5ID, 2/5ID reflagged as brigades of 2AD
• 8ID was inactivated in January 1992 and 1/8ID, 2/8ID, 3/8ID became 1/1AD, 2/1AD and 3/1AD.
• 1/9ID was inactivated in 1990; 9ID as a whole was inactivated in June 1991, with 3/9ID becoming the 199th IN BDE (and then the 2nd ACR) and the 81st IN BDE becoming 2ID's roundout.
• After Desert Storm, 48th IN BDE was removed as roundout brigade to 24ID, and 197th IN BDE officially became 3/24ID

3ID, 6ID, 7ID, 10MTN, 25ID, the 82nd and the 101st were left unchanged, although one of 3ID's brigades was detached to 1AD in Desert Shield/Desert Storm and 10MTN lost its roundout brigade. Also unchanged were the 193rd IN BDE in Panama and the 194th ARMD BDE at Fort Knox. As a result, when Clinton came into office, the Army had 14 divisions, with a total of 38 maneuver brigades (including the two separate brigades):

• 1AD: 1/1, 2/1, 3/1
• 2AD: 1/2, 2/2 (roundout: 256th IN BDE, LAARNG)
• 1CD: 1/1, 2/1, 3/1
• 1ID: 1/1, 2/1 (roundout: 218th IN BDE, SCARNG)
• 2ID: 1/2, 2/2 (roundout: 81st IN BDE, WAARNG)
• 3ID: 1/3, 2/3, 3/3
• 4ID: 1/4, 3/4 (roundout: 116th CAV BDE IDARNG)
• 6ID: 1/6, 2/6, (roundout: 205th IN BDE, USAR)
• 7ID: 1/7, 2/7, 3/7
• 10MTN: 1/10, 2/10
• 24ID: 1/24, 2/24, 3/24
• 25ID: 1/25, 2/25, 3/25
• 82ABN: 1/82, 2/82, 3/82
• 101AASLT: 1/101, 2/101, 3/101
• 193rd IN BDE
• 194th ARMD BDE

Among others, 6ID and 7ID were already on the chopping block, though. 7ID's 2nd and 3rd Brigades inactivated in 1993 and the division officially inactivated in June 1994. The 1st Brigade held on, but was reflagged as 1/25ID in 1995. 6ID's 2nd and 3rd Brigades (the latter a USAR unit) inactivated in 1994, and the division followed in July 1994, while 1/6ID held on as a brigade of 10th Mountain until being renamed the 172nd IN BDE in 1998. Other reductions and reflaggings in this period:

• 193rd IN BDE was inactivated in 1994.
• 2/3ID was inactivated in 1994, leaving 3ID with two Germany-based brigades.
• 194th ARMD BDE was inactivated in 1995.
• As noted, 10MTN gained 1/6ID in 1994, giving it three brigades.
• 1/25ID in Hawaii was inactivated in 1995 and 1/7ID at Fort Lewis was reflagged as 1/25ID.
• 3/1AD moved to Fort Lewis and in 1995 was reflagged to 2ID as its 3rd Brigade.

That gave the Army a 12-division force in the mid-1990s, but several divisions still had roundout brigades and some were otherwise reduced to two brigades. The next step was the reduction to the 10-division force, along with the ending of the roundout concept. The 1996 game of musical chairs was the most visible part of this reorganization:

• 2AD cased its colors and dropped its roundout brigade. It was reflagged as 4ID and its two active brigades became 1/4 and 2/4. 1/4ID was inactivated and its flag went to 1/2AD. 4ID's roundout was also dropped. 3/4ID at Fort Carson remained the same. As a result, where before there were two divisions – 4ID and 2AD – with 4 active and 2 Guard brigades between them, there was now one division – 4ID – with three active brigades (the two Guard brigades continued as separate brigades, and both have served in Iraq).
• 3ID cased its colors in Germany and took them to Fort Stewart. 24ID cased its colors and was reflagged as 3ID. Its three brigades (1/24, 2/24, 3/24) were renamed 1/3, 2/3, 3/3.
• The two brigades of 3ID left in Germany were renamed as 2nd and 3rd Brigades of 1ID. 1/1ID at Fort Riley remained with the division, while the old 2/1ID became the new 3/1AD (replacing the brigade which had gone to 2ID in 1995).

Other than minor changes, this is essentially the maneuver Army we have had since, up to the UA/UE restructuring taking place right now. Each division except 10th Mountain had three active maneuver brigades (the 172nd having become a separate brigade again in 1998).

You missed a BDE in there. From 1989-1994 the 177th Armor BDE at Fort Irwin was Heavy Seperate with 1 Armor BN, 1 INF BN & the 177th FSB (with HHC, 87th ENG CO, 177th MI CO and 31st Maint. CO) and then an Armor BN from the CA NG for roundout. While they conducted missions as OPFOR they were organized by MTOE and were part of I corps.

I know people like to forget about us out there in the sand.

My bad. I though they were a TDA unit.

i thought it was more like 790,000 (nitpicky, i know) and 17 divisions...that last division was the 6th ID in Alaska...to my knowledge, it never got beyond 5 infantry battalions....and truth be known, we had a hell of a time keeping those units up to strength...of course, several divisions in the Army had a RC round-out unit....the 6th had an infantry brigade out of Oregon, i think...and the 24th had the (in)famous 48th Brigade, which i believe, holds the record for the most consecutive unsucessful rotations at the NTC....

We were up until 1989 when they decided to make us part of the Regular Army. :D We did not go through Bradley NETT though until the Spring of 1991 so up until then we were a regular old mech unit running around the desert on 113's for ARTEP.

And yes, the 48th was part of the 24ID. We spent MANY MANY (<-- in my Commandant Lassard voice) wonderful nights in the Granite Pass training those folks. I think their original 14 day rotation turned into something like 60 and change and in the end not only did they not deploy their BDE CO was relieved as were some other folks. We then trained the 155th & 256th BDE's.

3rd Brigade of the 25th ID was a roundout brigade from the HIARNG/Army Reserve (100th/442nd) even under President Reagan.

TR

A quasi-Socialist womanizer with health problems.... Roosevelt? ;)

This kills me. ABL's "wasn't a very detailed response on my part" is better, and more detailed, than 90% of the posts on this board. I have research envy.

It didn't have, shall we say, my trademark level of detail. ;)


Of course, as brew catches, the more details you provide, the more opportunities you have for mistakes.

The 29th Infantry Brigade was 25ID's roundout third brigade from 1973 to 1985. Part of the Reagan-era buildup was bringing the Electric Strawberry up to full strength and converting it into a light infantry division.

The 29th IN BDE was mobilized in 1968-69 but obviously did not deploy to Vietnam. It was mobilized last year and deployed to Iraq back in February-March '05. There was a picture a couple of days ago in the Army news service of a 1LT from American Samoa with the 442nd outside of Baghdad.

It was the 18 divisions I listed - 1st, 2nd and 3rd Armored; 1st Cavalry; 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, 24th and 25th Infantry; 10th Mountain; 82nd Airborne and 101st Airborne (Air Assault) - with all the caveats in the detailed post about how many were short a brigade.

Since the ROAD reorg in the early 1960s, brigades are a better measure than divisions, anyway.

I mentioned to "Bin" Peay's apparent lack of concern about reserve component combat units when the off-site agreement was being made. The well-publicized problems with the 48th Infantry Brigade were the basis of this, I think, but the 48th wasn't the only RC combat unit called up during DS/DS.

The 256th Infantry Brigade from Louisiana was also mobilized in 1990-91, but did not deploy. It was the roundout brigade for the 5th Infantry Division. It too was called up last year and deployed to Iraq.

6ID's roundout brigade, the 205th Infantry Brigade, was an Army Reserve brigade, not a National Guard one, so at least 6ID wouldn't have had to go through a bunch of state governors to activate it. It was based in Minnesota and Iowa. The brigade from Oregon would be the 41st Infantry Brigade, which was roundout to 7ID from 1977-1984.

Hillary Continues Posturing To Right
 

Who was CSA when all these deals were made??

:munchin

BMT