a.) We was referring to Firefighters

b.) On purpose huh...apparently you have never been witness to a meth lab explosion, up close and personal like. Nasty, very nasty.

FWIW, I dont know about the protocols elsewhere, other than CFD and FDNY, but whenever the PD or SO here serves a warrant at a meth lab EMS, FD and HAZMAT are all present.

Thats all neither here or there though. Back to subject of discussion. I have no idea why they feel the need to call themsleves "operators." I laugh and joke about it here at the station all the time and it has gotten me into some deep crap before with a few of them. They get over it though.

Alright NDD, you said you wanted to fight and it looks like everyone is going to get on your "team" so I will play the other side. My group will be called the STFU (Serious Trouble Friggin Understanding U) :D


STFU feels these comments show us that there is a little deficiency in the prevalence of "quiet professionals" in the military. IF you are confident in your skills, training, and unit's special capabilities then why do you feel the need to take offense to someone using the term "operator"? It can be viewed as quite juvenile and unprofessional for educated, trained, and truly experienced men to care about whether one group or another is referred to in conversation.

Operator is not SF specific. It has been a "cool" guy word that has been used to describe some of the best soldiers in the world, but it also has other more general descriptive tones in non-military circles. FWIW- the SF command did NOT create the term for the exclusive use to describe SOF qualified personnel. If anything, it was first commonly used to describe a woman connecting phone lines to connect the desired party to their location. We have no idea why a SF soldier would defend this words usage so strictly. It really makes the leadership of STFU disappointed to hear “gonna-be's“, “wanna-be's” and especially the “has beens/real deals” discuss how important it is to them that no one else is called "operators".

First off, until the candidates prove themselves through to the end, they are much closer to wannabe Rambos than someone who simply "chases his wife around" or serves on a SWAT team. Let me say, we have no doubts as to James chances in becoming an exceptional SF soldier. This isn't a shot at him... We think the guy is top notch and should have the highest chances of making it due to his professionalism and dedication. However, it still makes us disturbed to hear how threatened it makes people feel when someone takes one of the non unit specific cool-by-association terms and uses it for another purpose/group.

Remember, you are doing your profession (SF soldiers) for the right reasons (not to be Rambo or call yourself cool terms) and at the highest level of any organization. You have the best training of any group in the world. That makes you comparable to no group, foreign or domestic, in the skill sets you have learned/trained/mastered. Why demean yourself by taking offense to other groups that are trained/selected/utilized for a totally different role? They still have demands for unit integrity and therefore the use of "special" names. We would like to think a SF soldier is a LOT more than just an operator.

We are more impressed by a soldier that simply nods, maybe smirks, and then moves on to what is important for him in the real world. At the most, we would expect a short "it's not the same, but it really doesn't matter to me" type statement. We can't imagine the TS or Reaper getting into a petty quarrel over someone using the term operator UNLESS he or his group was trying to insinuate they were a SF soldier. However, this thread is not addressing SF posers, it is focused on SWAT or other domestic LE type units that call themselves "operators".
In our opinion, they have every right to call themselves operators and it is completely legitimate to do so .
Show me in this MW dictionary definition where a SF soldier has a legitimate need/right to be defensive of this term. :

1A : one that operates : as a : one that operates a machine or device b : one that operates a business c : one that performs surgical operations d : one that deals in stocks or commodities
2 a : MOUNTEBANK, FRAUD b : a shrewd and skillful person who knows how to circumvent restrictions or difficulties
3 a : something and especially a symbol that denotes or performs a mathematical or logical operation b : a mathematical function
4 : a binding site in a DNA chain at which a genetic repressor binds to inhibit the initiation of transcription of messenger RNA by one or more nearby structural genes -- called also operator gene; compare OPERON

We agree with NDD's last sentence in the above quote. We think it goes for the offended and our new charity cause SWI. (soldiers with insecurities) though.

Signed-
The Supreme commander of STFU
Sacamuelas (defender of the other side, devil's advocate, non-cop, admitted and proud wife chaser, and certified wish-I-was pistol marksman)

Alright, lets hear the flames...LOL

Well, I have to admit....I've been an operator. Military switchboard. When I was a cadet. And let me tell you... I was OK at it... well, I didn't suck too much. So, I figure that I've got the operator thing down pat... but still haven't figured out how to do the Peace Corps hippy thing. Maybe NDD can teach me. :D

It is Special Operations specific in this context.
Yes we did, in this context. Although not to describe all SOF personnel, only certain ones.
There is nothing more in my world than an Operator. An Operator is the epitome of the SF soldier.
Thank you for proving my point.

None of what you have said addresses the question of the Law Enforcement Special Operations Medic in the first post.

While STFU is focusing on what it percieves to be my petty complaint over the use of the word, I will attempt to further explain myself.

I, unlike STFU, believe language is important. I have learned over the years that if one listens closely, it is possible to determine intent from language. Language is the externalization of the internal thought process.

What concerns me is not the inappropriate use of one or two or ten words. What concerns me is the militarization of law enforcement. When you factor in the use of military terms to describe themselves, use of privately purchased military equipment, deployment of FBI Agents around the world when they can't handle their own agent reports at home, events such as Waco and Ruby Ridge, the Patriot Acts, etc., where you see me being petty, I see a trend.

Let's reverse the trend. Would you be indifferent if military personnel started referring to themselves as deputies? - its just a word. How about we put MILGATS in every major police department in the US? Soldiers wearing handcuffs and nightsticks? Badges? LEOs shouldn't be upset, that would be petty. They should quietly smirk.

No doctor, there is a reason why things are the way they are. There is a line that separates and for good reason. Now, at the time when everyone in government wants to "do something" to protect the homeland is in my opinion the time when the line must be most defined. Otherwise we run the risk of creating a police state because of just a word.

Police must understand very clearly what their duties and limitations are, just as soldiers must. And it begins, IMO, with language.

There is a reason for Posse Comitatus - a very good reason. But is a police state created by a militarized police force any less of a police state than one created by the military taking control of law enforcement functions?

You have heard Noslack's opinion on what this militarization does to good police work.

You may not think language matters. I think it matters a great deal. A guerrilla talks like a guerrilla for a reason. As does a soldier or a law enforcement officer.

So you see Doctor, you do me a disservice by thinking it is only a petty matter of a word. I thought you knew me a little better.


Oh and one last thing: If they want to be called operators, they can go to the fookin' school and suffer the hardships like Operators. They can dissolve their unions and associations and accept whatever pay the POTUS of the day wants to give them. They can deploy en masse on 20 December without knowing when they will be home. They can be moved in accordance with the needs of the department to whatever crappy assignment the department requires without consideration for needs of the family. They can go to 'Stan and fight terrorists only to come home and mop floors. Because "While you might have a Silver Star, you're still a PFC, so get the mop."

Yes, we make that choice. But I think that gives us the right to reserve a word or two if we choose to do so. I choose "Quiet Professional" "Operator" "Good in the woods" "Green Hat" "SF" and "Green Beret". They can have the other 5 billion trillion million words in the English language. And I'll even share some of my words with the other US Spec Ops troops and some foriegners if they're really good.

Deal?

Alright, It looks like STFU has found an audience. I must be pretty good at this. I think we as a group must fall somewhere near PETA in NDD's mind after that response. LOL

No need to call me that doctor word, it sounds so bad when you say it like that. LOL Don't make it personal, you specifically asked for a fight and noone seemed willing to have any fun. I was giving you what you wanted. Everyone is way to scared to argue with you with God powers and all. Let me reread your post and consult with my STFU cabinet members. I will respond ASAP.

Damn NDD... your touchy when the website goes down for 24 hours. LOL

GH- glad you saw some of the humor in my post.

signed- (per NDDs agreement in his last post)
SC of STFU
Sacamuelas ( aka a highly trained/educated "operator" that routinely works in multiple "operator"ies while completing several different objectives, and one who routinely performs detailed surgical "operations" during this work)

Alright...

For me its a serious attitude problem with them. They think they are much more than I, and many others, see them to be. They are LEO with a few skills more than patrol officers and a crap load of cool go-fast gear. Atleast here thats the way it works.

The medics are EMS paramedics who have been to either the CONTOMS course or the H&K course. They are not LEO who have been sent to medic school. Special Operations Medics (18-D, 91WF1, Seal Corpmen, TF-160 medics) training includes so much more than that of a SWAT Medic, therefor they should not share a common name that has been associated with the military.

I do not think myself anymore than a Smoke-Eater. I find the idea incredulous that you even think I see myself as more than a 'candidate.' I am fully aware of my place. Just because I am not an 'operator' does not preclude me from having an opinion about what their name means in the grande scheme of things.

James... Glad to have you jump back in. I expressed my specific opinion about you in my post. No need to feel attacked. I was just putting out another opinion that I have seen expressed on socnet and other boards. I thought your words were actually understated and self deprecating as to your future training and your current training level, and very professional I'll add... at the worst view my post as simply "pulling your chain".

If you wish, wait until the end of this thread and you will see how I personally feel about this issue. Until then, I have to keep my STFU brothers represented since there are no SWAT guys with attitudes similar to what NDD has described stepping up to argue their legitimacy.

I'm not taking it personal. And I would never take advantage of position in a discussion. Same same rules apply to me as they do everybody else when posting as far as I'm concerned. The TS is the power, I'm just the tip of the spear. LOL

Besides, I can kick your ass on this topic without the powers.:D

Here is my point of view from and LEO stand point...

NDD your right there is a lot of Officers out there that are on a SWAT team or think they should be on a SWAT team that have an inferority complex when it comes to the mil specifically SF type units. Granted none of these individual Officers will admit it, but I know these officers personally and can tell you that they wish they were running around the hills of A-stan shooting bad guys. However, at the same time these Officers will not make a personal sacrafice and join the military specifically an SF unit. The officers I know who do not have an inferiority complex who want to run around the hills of A-stan killing bad guys have quit the department and signed on the dotted line, and are now in the SF pipleine.

On a certain level I'm one of these Officers. I enjoy the "IDEA" of running around A-stan and shooting bad guys. But I know that dreams and reality are two totally different animals. I have a great life, I work mon-fri 7-5 with weekends off so I can chase the wife around the house. I don't have to stand on a hill at 10 thousand + feet elevation freezing my ass off wondering if I'm gonna catch a mortar today or not. Do I feel inferior to military or SF types like yourself? No, but I do admire what you and your brothers do, I know that I couldn't do it.

Back on topic.
These officers or SWAT type units who go around naming themselves "Operators" or "Special Operations Units" yada yada yada. Are on one hand wanna be SF types or SOF types but on the other hand are SF types (literal translation) they are the best from the LEO community (alteast we hope they are), they do have specialized training, of dynamic room entry, and some other needed skills. BUT they (as you know) are not by anyway shape or form on the same level as an SF soldier. Can these same officers kick ass and take names outside an urban enviornment? NOPE. Some can't even kick ass and take names in an urban enviornment.

The individuals I know who run around throwing out that they are on the SWAT team are the same individuals who do not make it on the SWAT team b/c of there bravado. They have the inablity to work to on a team. They are the same loud mouth guys that brag about everything they have done in life, you know the friggin idiot who won't shut up about how great he is...The empty can makes a lot of noise.

As far as equipment goes I now you don't have a problem with the weapons but daily uniforms I think we should wear polo type shirts with BDU bottoms. Why? b/c they are comfortable. I do not think agencies should be wearing woodland or desert BDU's for there normal uniform but I do think they should wear them if they are going to do a raid or something along those lines, b/c if someone gets away and it becomes a fugitive hunt you are already dressed for the occasion.

Like Noslack71 stated community policing is getting inside the community and getting to know people, using your inner personal communication to build rapport with as many people in the community as you can. It works for us, the problem in bigger cities is 3 fold 1. Officers have little time or training for community policing. 2. Agencies do not have officers working the same neighborhoods day in day out year after year. 3. Younger officers (my generation 21-33) have little patience for community policing they don't give a damn about the community they just want the next addernaline rush, or to bullshit with there buddies.

Okay last but not least entire Agencies are to fault for alot of your gripps 1. for allowing there SWAT teams to be called "Spec Ops whatever" or for the officers to be called an "Operator" 2. As for continuation training goes that falls squarely on the administrations shoulders and there inability to offer continuation training. Cops love training but you have provide it, to make it interesting, and worth there time.

And don't even get me started on the FBI.

Has the level of viloence in the US increased or decreased with the creation of more SWAT teams carrying MP5's and other high speed,low drag gear? At one time, a beat cop was the best job in American law enforcement. The cop knew evryone on his beat,we always left a bookie, a bootlegger/pot dealer and a hooker more or less alone. They were great sources of information. We knew who the bad guys were, what there MO's were and someone usually told us if they made a score or, were planning something. We went to bat for the folks on the beat and when we were getting our ass kicked in the middle of the block someone called 911 or came out and helped us. People use to call operators to get a cop or firefighter to help them. I never heard the term used in relation to an SF soldier until the mid 80's. Seems to me that became the in term among the Brits. Why oh why our SOF community would copy anything from the Brits is beyond my humble pay grade.
The orginial question is does this militarization of emergency services help America? My vote is No! It only separates the people from the cops. Remember Mao, the guerilla swims in the sea of the people. Most criminal activity(except sex crimes) by nature are guerilla activities.SWAT has great intentions but, its very nature and logistics requires maintaining distance from the community. That seems like adding more and more conventional forces to fight the "G" in VN.

What brought this on, NDD? Have you been jailed recently? :D

I would guess this is the reason the larger departments such as LAPD, LASO, NYPD, CPD, etc... have dedicated SWAT teams. This keeps the teams concentrated on training and operations instead of using patrol officers to fill both functions.

I, for one, understand Posse Comitatus and do not want to see the US Army involved in attacking US citizens here at home.

The militarization of local LE is a big mistake. When the only tool you have is a hammer, all problems tend to look like nails.

RL, have liberal aliens taken over your thoughts, or are you in some kind of trial funk?

TR

Did I leave a message on your answering machine? LOL

Smokin' Joe, that's all I'm saying. I know a lot of experienced LEOs that aren't like what I'm describing. They are very professional. I'm talking mostly about the younger guys and from what I've seen, they're mostly from mid-sized cities.

ROTFLMAO!

Seriously, I'm totally in favor of eliminating many protections for criminal defendants, but there is a line I won't cross. I worked for a senior Reagan administration official who was indicated in the Wedtech scandal. He was convicted by a DC jury -- hardly of his peers -- and lost just about everything in the process of getting the conviction reversed by the DC Circuit. It was a BS case brought by a far-left special prosecutor who was out to get this guy because he was close to Reagan.

Let's not forget what you guys are fighting for. Rights for criminal defendants are part of it, even if there have been some decisions that have gone too far. And Padilla should fry too.