I do not buy any of it.

I think that it is all public relations bullshit.

I am extremely conflicted on this matter for a number of reasons, but I have to distill my feelings down to the basic reality, which is that our country is vulnerable, and we are not doing what is necessary to guarantee the security of the Republic.

I hate to say it....and I will sound like a hothead....but maybe it would be for the best if vigiliantes deployed on the border and abused economic migrants.

This might force our government to actually get off its ass and implement a viable policy, if only to preempt vigiliantes from engaging in abuses.

I think that the USG is bound not only by the need for migrant labor and the lib PC crowd, but also the need for Mexican oil.

The sooner this country develops an alternative fuel, the sooner we can deal with problems without having to worry about secondary considerations.

TR

careful, brother.

you do realize that if we were not beholden to a finite, rapidly diminishing natural resource, that our entire national economic structure would change?

think about the implications.

If we do not need oil....we do not need:

1. cars that burn gasoline.
2. tankers that move huge amounts of crude oil over our oceans.
3. giant refineries.
4. oil platforms, and the entire infrastructure of the oil companies, which is dedicated to the exploration of areas for exploitation, and the systematic extraction of oil.
5. In fact....we would no longer need to care about what happens in the Middle East. We would no longer be concerned with the oil pipelines, the straits of Malacca, none of it. In fact...our entire military force structure could change.

Fortunes would be lost overnight. In fact...it is safe to say that entire national economies would be disrupted, and even at risk of collapse.

Personally, I think that it would be a beautiful thing....but I do not believe that the agencies that truly rule the world will ever permit it to happen, unless they are behind it, and they are able to dominate and control the next source of power.

(Oops...is my tinfoil hat showing?)

Found this on the Washington Times website--apropos of the first hijack of this thread.

from : http://insider.washingtontimes.com/a...1-114206-1340r

Drivers Licenses, other issue on table at Latino Day
 

from : http://www.fayettevillenc.com/ap-state.php?story=66698

1. It seems that these good people are protesting that they now have to present a passport with a valid immigration stamp or visa in order to get a driver's license. It should not be any other way. I advocate no flexibility on this issue. If you do not have a visa, get the fuck out of the USA. If you cannot get a visa, stay home, or go somewhere else. America needs to get serious about this.

2. The second to the last paragraph in this article....makes me ill. Are these people aware that someone has to pay the bills when indigent patients show up at emergency rooms? In Thailand, if you do not have an insurance card, or if you are not wearing gold (I mean, if you are not literally wearing several baht in gold around your neck, or on your wrists and fingers), or if you do not have sufficient cash on your person to defray your initial treatment, or if you otherwise cannot immediately pay for treatment, they will literally leave you to bleed on the pavement outside the ER. There are no free lunches here, and there should be no free lunches in the USA. Not because Thailand is perfect. Shit, it is far from perfect. But there is a no-nonsense focus on the bottom line here. In an ideal world, we would all have universal and free health care, cradle to grave. It is not an ideal world. Get over it. Or legislate universal and free health care. Hell, I would vote for it. I would legalize marijuana, tax and regulate the shit out of it, and use the proceeds to pay for universal health care. This is on my agenda for when I become Emperor.

3. The final paragraph illustrates what I have been saying about guest worker programs. Setting up appropriately regulated guest worker programs means that you are able to dictate and verify a baseline level of accommodations and decent work conditions....and you are able to elevate these sorts of jobs beyond the level of human slavery. I have absolutely no respect for the sort of employers who treat other human beings in this way. Denying visitors access to migrant worker accommodations is nothing more than sweeping the abusive conditions under which these people are kept under the rug. Where in the hell is la migra?



Drivers licenses, other issues on table at Latino Day


The Associated Press
RALEIGH, N.C.


Several hundred Hispanics wearing stickers that read "I pay taxes" and carrying signs that read "adequate housing is a human right" turned out Wednesday for the second annual Latino Day at the Legislature.


Hispanics "want to contribute positively to the betterment of our state, North Carolina," Andrea Bazan-Manson, executive director of the advocacy group El Pueblo said to loud cheers.


Among the legislators who spoke was Rep. Danny McComas, R-New Hanover, who's Hispanic.


"It's great for you to be involved in the political process," he said. "It's great. It's part of the American system of government."


Several people were there to discuss specific issues _ farmworker housing, access to tuition aid or drivers' licenses _ but some spoke more subtly about the contributions of Hispanics to North Carolina and urged unity.


"All of us ... have come from someplace else in our history," said Rep. Alice Bordsen, D-Alamance.


Many in the crowd carried signs about drivers' licenses, a contentious issue in recent years.


In February 2004, the state Division of Motor Vehicles stopped accepting foreign passports without a U.S. immigration stamp, most foreign birth certificates and a popular Mexican identification card known as the matricula consular.


The DMV also stopped accepting tax records of any kind or birth and marriage certificates from countries other than the United States and Canada.


Standards for issuing licenses, which often serve as an official identification card, have become part of the debate over national security since the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001.


Rep. Ellie Kinnaird, D-Orange, told Latino Day participants she wants to assure they are able to apply for and receive licenses.


"I want to make sure you have access because this is a safety issue, because then you will have insurance," she said.


Luis Landaverde, 30, who works as a translator in Clinton, said access to drivers' licenses is his top concern.


"The Spanish people work hard to do whatever they have to do," he said. "I want them to give the drivers' licenses back. This is very important."


He said he was also concerned about how Hispanics are treated in hospitals since they often don't have health insurance. "Doctors don't give them attention because they have no insurance, and then they have no money to pay the bills," he said.


Stephanie Triantafillou of the Farmworkers Advocacy Network spoke in favor of Senate Bill 962, which revises the N.C. Migrant Housing Act for the first time in 16 years. State law now doesn't require growers to provide mattresses, phones, sufficient number of toilets and showers, or allow visitors access to migrant housing, she said.

Yesterday here in AZ we had a group of latinos, do thier thing. The March for Dignity or some such crap. They were pissed about pending legislation, denying them (illegals) FREE college tuition in this sate! Another denying them, cut rates from the electric companies and a couple more. Damn, most in that crowd had to be illegals. What a great opportunity to round them up. Oh well.

A local radio station down here has the only reporter embedded with the Minute men. I'll post a link for anyone who is interested. As usual, you can't get the truth on what is really going on down here from the mainstream media.
http://www.kfyi.com/minuteman.html

Yesterday all the radios used by the Minutemen were jammed, still are. Only thing really working are ham radios and there aren't many of those. YUP, just some simple poor mexicans crossing the border, that somehow have the capability to jam the 2-ways.

either I am increasingly joining the Tinfoil Hat Brigades, or there are readily understandable reasons why la migra does not swoop down on public protests and arrest all the illegals in the crowd. The fact that illegals have the audacity to assemble publicly and protest speaks volumes.

I am speechless that illegals believe that they have the right to discounted electricity, free tuition, driver's licenses, and other benefits of citizenship. Do they not realize that someone must pay, somewhere along the line? If the costs of these privileges are defrayed with public tax monies, then taxpayers are paying to host illegal migrants in their communities. Funds which could be allocated to educating American youth, improving highways, funding programs for the aged and the young alike....are diverted, even subverted, in a sort of theft. If illegal migrants are actually paying taxes....then good. They should then feel entitled to some benefits that accrue to taxpayers. If they want to enjoy all the benefits of citizenship...then they should become citizens. What is crucial, is that some degree of control be reimposed over the situation, and a guest worker program created, with inspection and enforcement agencies that enforce regulations on employers, and on migrants. It is a matter of security.

I do not blame illegal migrants for the current state of affairs. They merely want to create better lives, better opportunities for their children. I blame those who employ them under the table, pay them shit wages, and incarcerate them in subhuman housing, working them under abusive conditions. These wealthy people need to be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

the fact that many such employers have become rich exploiting other humans tells the tale: the rich donate to political parties and politicians, and it is these agents that call off federal agencies, and exert political pressure behind the scenes to create space for illegal migrants to fly below the radar.

now you tell me: am I certifiably nuts, or is this simplistic description of the situation accurate?

my fear is that we will wait, and prevaricate, and procrastinate, until we have multiple terrorist attacks on shopping malls, schools, and hospitals. When people ask their government, "how did these terrorists come to be among us?" And the answer is, "they waded across the Rio Grande like a million other mojados," what will we do then?

why are we waiting to be attacked?

our borders are wide open. It takes the "Minutemen" to raise this issue in the media?

I am curious about your decision to use the term "exploit." Are these people taking these jobs involuntarily?

I do think you are a bit nuts on this topic. It is one thing to control borders for security reasons, have work permits, etc., but I see nothing wrong with using migrant labor. It is a win-win situation for both sides.

I have limited access to the Internet for a few more days, so I apologize if I do not respond promptly. Perhaps NDD and Greenhat will be along shortly. We have gone down this road before.

Currently, US citizens are not required to have a passport when travelling to or from Canada, Mexico, the Caribbean, Bermuda, Central and South America (that is, by US law; each country might have its own entry requirements, but the US citizen does not need a passport to re-enter the US).

Canadian and Mexican citizens and Bermudan residents are not required to have a passport when entering the US.

The exemption for travel to and from the Caribbean, Bermuda, Central and South America will end on December 31, 2005, affecting US citizens and Bermudans. On December 31, 2006, the exemption that allows passport-free travel (by air or sea) to or from Mexico and Canada will end. By December 31, 2007, a passport will be required for all air, sea and land border crossings into the US.

British and Irish citizens do not need a passport to travel among Ireland, the UK, and the UK dependencies of Jersey, Guernsey and the Isle of Man.

Under the Schengen Agreement, travel among Austria, Belgium, Denmark, France, Finland, Germany, Greece, Iceland, Italy, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, Spain and Sweden does not require a passport, although entry into them from a none-party generally does. I have landed at Frankfurt airport many times, shown my passport (but no visa) to enter Germany, and then driven to several of these countries, never having to show a passport. When I was on active duty, I didn't even need a passport when landing in Germany, the UK, Norway and Turkey, since a military ID qualifies as an alternative to a passport for entering NATO countries.

Andorra, Monaco, San Marino, and the Vatican City are also part of the Schengen zone, since their borders are open to countries who are parties (Spain, France and Italy).

Cyprus, the Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Malta, Poland, Slovakia, Slovenia and Switzerland have joined the Schengen Agreement, but have not yet implemented it. If and when Switzerland joins, Liechtenstein will also come in by default (currently, when driving in from Austria, you need to show a passport, but the border between Liechtenstein and Switzerland isn't even marked).

To paraphrase "Jules" in Pulp Fiction, you raise a valid point.

Maybe I am "nutty." Hell, at my age, I am entitled.

;)

Ok, here is how I see it.

1. Economic conditions create a scenario whereby migrants from Mexico, or wherever, illegally cross our national borders to work illegally in jobs that Americans typically refuse to do, for wages that Americans typically decline.

2. No, migrants are not "forced" to do these jobs. They could stay home and frolic in the bucolic state of grace called poverty. They are compelled, by dint of their economic plight, to migrate to the US, and to seek employment in circumstances which Americans reject. Those are the jobs that are readily available to undocumented workers.

3. Like you, I see nothing fundamentally wrong with using migrant labor. I think that it is a "win-win" for both employer and employee. But there are several problems with the situation as it currently stands:

A. Such workers are often held in conditions which are akin to indentured servitude. This is not conspiracy theorizing. Some employers segregate workers into company compounds, feed them crap food, stuff them into substandard housing, force them to shop at company stores where necessities are overpriced, and subject them to dehumanizing and abusive work conditions precisely because illegal workers cannot readily complain to local labor boards, or police, or easily vote with their feet, once they are snared. I make a moral judgement here. I have been an employee, and I have been an employer. Yes, I have had to make payroll. I think that employers have a responsibility and a duty to create a "safe" environment for employees, and some consideration for their welfare is not just legally required, it is the moral thing to do. Many employers who hire migrant labor treat their workers like shit. I consider this contemptible. They do it because they can, and to maximize profits. I am not an enemy of profits, or of capitalism. I am an enemy of exploitation.

B. While somewhat exceptional, the above predicament would represent an extreme. Lesser degrees of inappropriate treatment occur more commonly, not rising to the level of abuse. Still, we are talking about jobs, and conditions, that are rejected by American citizens, for valid reasons. Because illegal workers are illegal, because they come to this country without benefit of visa or work permit, they naturally gravitate to such jobs. Workers who qualify for work permits and visas do different work. Better work. Better wages, better conditions. Employers who seek out illegals often do so because they are, as employers, flying below the radar, offering conditions of work which violate US labor laws.

C. Government policies do not reflect reality. The US government does not permit agricultural, construction industry laborers, and service industry workers, to come to America through official government checkpoints. For whatever reason, the USG turns them around. Here is a proposal: identify jobs that use migrant labor, subject them to oversight and inspection regimes, and certify that they comply with standard US labor laws. Offer these jobs to migrants, register them, and regulate their entrance to the country, their duration and conditions of stay, and either require their return to their home country upon completion of their work term, or offer a viable option for immigration and citizenship. I am not proposing that we engage in nuclear fusion here. I am proposing that the USG act like a government.

4. What we are talking about here is not just a security problem, though it is definitely that. I think that it is the security aspects of this situation which will serve to bring it into harsher focus, and result in more endeavors like the "Minuteman" project.

5. Fundamentally, I think that the USG needs to do the following:

A. Secure the borders.
B. Enforce labor laws.
C. Admit laborers under the provisions of work permits, regulated by visas.
D. Require compliance for access to services.

Now...if these ideas make me "nutty"......I am guilty as charged.

:)

Here is another article. Again, I am not seeking these out. I just come across them in the course of my daily surfing.

from : http://insider.washingtontimes.com/a...7-121530-9142r

Mexican cops warn migrants at border

By Jerry Seper
THE WASHINGTON TIMES

Published April 7, 2005

NACO, Ariz. -- Mexican police, humanitarian workers and military personnel are trying to dissuade migrants from illegally entering the United States until after a monthlong protest here against lax enforcement along the U.S.-Mexico border.

The Mexicans are telling the prospective border crossers that Minuteman Project protesters will hurt them when they enter Arizona, and also are moving the migrants away from the zone being patrolled by the protesters.

The Mexican government has been distributing a red flier headlined "¡Peligro!" meaning "danger," and featuring an icon of two crossed rifles. The flier warns readers that hundreds of "vigilantes," whom it says could be armed but are not part of the U.S. Border Patrol, will guard that segment of the border 24 hours a day all month.

Enrique Enriques Palafox, a commander of Grupo Beta, a Mexican government-funded humanitarian organization, said his group wants to protect the migrants and is willing to "terrify" them into delaying their journey.

"We know [the Minuteman volunteers] are armed and our job is to protect migrants," said Bertha de la Rosa, a coordinator for Grupo Beta, which yesterday loaded pickup trucks with migrants on the Mexican side of the border and relocated them.

A Mexican official, speaking on the condition of anonymity, yesterday said migration from Mexico has dropped by 50 percent along the 20-mile stretch of border that is being monitored by about 200 Minuteman volunteers.

Border Patrol officials have acknowledged a drop in the number of illegal aliens apprehended since the protest began, but said the reduction could also be attributed to the presence along the border here of Mexican police and military personnel.

"It doesn't matter whether the reason is that we are on the border or that the Mexican government has clamped down on their side because of us," Minuteman organizer Chris Simcox said.

"The object of our protest was to show that a presence on the border would significantly impact on the number of people crossing into the United States," he said.

"I think it is clear we have already shown that to be true," said Mr. Simcox, a newspaper publisher and founder of the Civil Homeland Division organization in Arizona.

Diego Padilla, spokesman for Gov. Eduardo Bours Castelo of the Mexican state of Sonora, says more than 40 Sonora State Preventive Police are working with the Mexican military and Grupo Beta to locate and move migrants from the border areas south of here to Agua Prieta, 15 miles east, near Douglas, Ariz.

Mr. Padilla said the Mexican government wants to prevent violence between the migrants and the Minuteman volunteers.
****Earlier this year, the Mexican government distributed about 1.5 million comic-book guides that warned Mexican nationals about the dangers of crossing illegally into the United States and offered tips on how to stay safe. It was published by Mexico's Foreign Relations Department.

But Mr. Simcox said no violent incidents had been reported during the first four days of the monthlong border protest -- a claim confirmed by the Cochise County Sheriff's Department.

Mr. Simcox also said that 176 illegal aliens have been spotted by the volunteers and reported to the Border Patrol since Saturday, and all have been apprehended.

A Mexican law-enforcement official who asked not to be identified told The Washington Times that many of the migrants rounded up in Mexico were not aware of the Minutemen until they arrived.

But the official said the alien smugglers, or "coyotes," were aware of the border vigil and collected their fees from the migrants in advance. The migrants are paying the coyotes about $1,000 each to be taken over the border.

Mr. Simcox and co-organizer James T. Gilchrist, a retired California certified public accountant, reminded protest leaders Tuesday that volunteers were not to confront illegal aliens only report their presence to the Border Patrol.

"We're not here to catch anyone, that's not our job," said Mr. Simcox, adding that while there had been no complaints regarding the Minuteman volunteers, those manning observation posts along the border would be reminded of the policy.

from : http://www.azcentral.com/news/articl...icmarch05.html

Latinos walk for dignity
Protesters target Ariz. anti-immigrant bills


Yvonne Wingett
The Arizona Republic
Apr. 6, 2005 12:00 AM

They walked for different reasons, but they all had the same goals: opportunity and dignity.

For themselves and their parents. And for those that will follow their paths and cross Mexico's desert for work and opportunities in the United States.

More than 300 mostly Latino residents, students, day laborers, business owners and elected officials walked 25 miles on Tuesday in protest of proposed state legislation that they say would drive many undocumented immigrants deeper underground.

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Dignity Walk leaders hoped the march would bring international attention to the plight of immigrants in Arizona. Opponents said they should go home and march for rights there.

The walk began at 7 a.m. and stretched for a quarter of a mile. Demonstrators chanted si se puede, it can be done, as they walked from Mesa to Arizona State University and finally to the state Capitol.

"What's occurring in the Legislature should not go on," said Maria Alba, 25, of Mesa, who carried a poster in support of day-labor centers. "Our community has finally said 'enough is enough.' "

So have some Republican state lawmakers, who said they have sponsored legislation targeting the undocumented in response to the public's approval of anti-illegal immigration initiative Proposition 200 and to the federal government's unwillingness to "secure the borders."

Several bills advancing in the Legislature would deny public housing, a college education, publicly funded child care and utility assistance, among other services, to undocumented immigrants. Other bills would ban publicly funded day-labor centers and require immigrants to pay out-of-state college tuition.

"I will not pander to people in this country illegally," said Rep. Russell Pearce, R-Mesa. "Just like in hostage situations. You don't negotiate with the bad guys. You don't negotiate with illegals."

The mobilization comes at a crucial time. When tensions mount among recently arrived Mexicans, Arizona's Hispanic community and the general community over immigration and who should receive public benefits. When self-appointed border police camp out on Arizona's border to keep undocumented immigrants from crossing. And when voters, fed up by illegal immigration, passed Proposition 200 by a comfortable margin.

"I don't get (public) help, and I was born on this dirt," said Eddy Moscickis, 33, an El Mirage resident who watched the trail of marchers along Mesa's Main Street amid whistles and boos from passers-by.

"That right there," he pointed to the marchers. "To me, (that) is a waste of time."

The Dignity Walk was reminiscent of protests and marches in California after voters passed Proposition 187, similar to Proposition 200. The protest may not change the minds of lawmakers or their supporters, experts said. But its symbolism will likely raise awareness among segments of the community and gain momentum across the region, political experts said.

"What social movements always have to be concerned about is lasting attention," said Dan Brouwer, an assistant professor of communication at ASU and an expert in social movements and political tactics. "A march by itself can quickly fade in the public imagination. But a series of events that continue to bring the issue to people's minds is the most effective way to create the potential for persuasion."

The marchers came from all segments of the community. Some were undocumented, some legal permanent residents. Others were high school or college students whose parents brought them to the United States when they were children. Still others are first-generation Hispanics born out of the Chicano movement.

.

"As long as they're doing the dirty work, it's OK for undocumented immigrants to be here," said Dorelyn Kunkel, director of a charter school who joined the walk at Apache Boulevard and Rural Road. "But if they want to get an education, no? It's creating an underclass of people."

March organizer Salvador Reza said through a bullhorn that he will call for businesses and corporations across the nation to boycott Arizona and book their conferences elsewhere if the bills become law.

"We'll make them stop," said Reza, operator of north Phoenix's Macehualli Work Center "We have an economic power that they fear. Somos un pueblo sin fronteras, we are a people without borders."

That is the march I referred to earlier magician. Yeah they "are people without borders". Most, illegally just happen to cross U.S borders. They get here and automatically feel 'entitled' everything for free, gimme,gimme. That March should have been busted and all illegals deported. Hell, why do we even have any propositions in the AZ legislature regarding this anyway. The illegals are NOT entitled to squat, except for a return to trip to mexico. That salvador reza said alot more that is not in that article. Something along the lines of.... we don't want to be part of the U.S. or citizens, we just want what we are entitled too... or some such crap. BTW, the Arizona Republic is just another lib rag, normally referred to out here as the Arizona Repugnant.

In reference to the Washington Times article, that is just about all true. They are bussing, well, bad term. Some Minutemen postioned just west of Douglas have witnessed what they describe as the people being moved by what look more like military type trucks headed toward Douglas, perhaps further east. Another thing, as far as the Minutemen being armed. Something like one out of fifteen or so are carrying sidearms and only those with permits No rifles are allowed to be carried.

The Chris Simcox referred to in the article publishes a paper called the Tombstone Tumbleweed. In that paper, he exposes the illegal immigrant problem, but takes it much further. That is to the higher ups. Politicians and specifically, the officers heading up the Border Patrol. The agents on the ground are happy to have the Minutemen there. I heard part of a radio interview today with Chris Simcox. He wears a bulletproof vest where ever he goes, has a bodygaurd and has had to change his kids last name, in an effort to protect them.
About a year or so ago, northbound on I-10 (which runs between Tucson and Phx) there was a running gun battle between two groups of coyotes at 9-10 in the morning, with automatic weapons. Seems one group stole the other group's illegals. This was just comming into the southern suburbs of Phx, on a busy interstate. The same time this was occurring, vincente fox was in town with our wonderful Gov. Another friggin lib. Neither that day commented on that incident. Not to mention the rapes commited by the coyotes to the women they are smuggling or the dead ones found packed and locked in trucks every now and then or the tremendous amount of drugs brought into the country. I'd go on and on but it gets even harder to type what I want when i'm pissed.

Posted by magician
5. Fundamentally, I think that the USG needs to do the following:

A. Secure the borders.
B. Enforce labor laws.
C. Admit laborers under the provisions of work permits, regulated by visas.
D. Require compliance for access to services.

I agree, so I'm crazy too.

It is the nexus between abusive employers and corrupt politicians and bureaucrats that chaps my ass.

I do not blame the poor for seeking a better life for themselves and their children.

I blame the greed of seedy entrepreneurs for creating the underground labor market.

If there were no shitty jobs, if the USG enforced its own labor laws, there would be no demand for illegal workers. Simple.

The USG here is complicit and corrupt in two specific regards:

1. It does not secure our borders, making a nightmare terrorism scenario more feasible. This is malfeasance on the part of our government.

2. It does not enforce labor laws that are already on the books. No new regulations or legal codes are required. All that is required is enforcement of current laws. What we are talking about here is corruption, plain and simple.

Here is how it works:

A. Rich business owners who are rich because they exploit undocumented workers donate to political action committees, election campaign funds, and to political parties.

B. In return for this largess, politicians exert pressure on bureaucrats, who after all, merely want to not roil the waters so that they can make it to retirement.

C. Inadequate resources are hence focused on border security, and the guys at the ground level quickly fall into a mentality of doing the best that they can with what they have. They, too, learn to avoid rocking the boat, as they have mortgages, and college tuition to finance for their children.

D. Hence USG corruption and complicity in the nexus of the guilty, as outlined in 1. and 2. above. Without exception, every single bureaucrat that I ever met was worried first and foremost about his mortgage, and secondarily about college tuition for his or her children. They absolutely feared taking a moral stand on any issue, lest they jeopardize their jobs.

Again, my fear is that it will take a terrorist event of mammoth proportions to catalyze the public uproar that will finally make politicians make bureaucrats do their jobs--alienating their wealthy benefactors in the private sector in the process.

This is why the nexus of exploitative employers and corrupt officials chaps my ass: greed and dereliction of duty.

Yup....I am crazy as a loon.

;)

Houdini:

I do not think you are crazy. In fact, we are generally in agreement. I think we need to accept that there is a need for migrant labor here, and a desire of migrants to work here. We need to allow the work, and regulate it as needed. Generally speaking, however, I don't like too much regulation by the government. I think markets self-regulate most things pretty well over time. Not everything, to be sure, but most things.

Do you really think we can completely secure borders of the length we are talking about? (There are two, don't forget.) Would it be worth the expense? I think it is a pipe dream, but I am no expert.

RL

Senator McCain speaking to a poli sci class at his alma mater yesterday.

Article

So will they be "entitled" to bankruptcy protection if they don't have the money to pay the fine? :rolleyes:

--Aric