I think you're missing my point. There are guys here, that reguardless of school trained MOS are doing the job of an infantryman day in and day out. They are not simply reacting to contact IAW BD2. I've worked with a couple of platoons here that because of thier experience I'd take over an infantry platoon in a second. These guys are actively persuing and closing with the enemy, and not assigned the 11B MOS. They are not by regulation authorized to recieve, nor are they being reccomended for the CIB. However those 13 series on my FOB that have held an 11 series MOS DO quailify for the CIB due to how the regulation reads, and thier direct role in ground combat.

Do you think an 11C, 11H, any 18 serires, or perhaps an Infantry staff officer is entiteled to a CIB just for service here? They are getting them. I dont knock those positions of course, but there is certainly a difference between those guys and the guys deploying out of a BFV in response to contact.

If you like when I get back you can come by the team room and we'll go through the company with me pointing out guys wearing CIBs that have never fired a round or had to react to contact.

I never said to award these guys the CIB, I simply bring up the fact that there are soldiers here, that are doing the job of the infantryman simply because we do not have enough infantrymen to go around. An award of similar status to non 11 series MOSs that recognizes those individuals for thier role in ground combat is not excessive.

just my .02, and I still love you brother!

mp

mmfjm says: NO!! However that is the same argument that has been put forth since the beginning of time. Ifr they are getting them that's a different problem. Rather than take me around, if you are so vehement about it, document it and point them out to the IG -- presuming he also doesn't wear a CIB. :eek: :eek:

There are instances everyday of individuals breaking or bending the rulles. That doesn't make the rules bad. If they want a badge, fine -- Hell everyone has a couple or three these days to go with their berets. How about a combat spoon? :D :D

Sorry, I wasn't trying to snipe at you with my post if it came across that way. I do see what you're saying, and you certainly do have a good point. I see guys where I work (18 series, no less) sporting CIBs that never left the wire, but because they were within a km of a couple hip shot mortar rounds, they got it.

While the non-11s are doing a great job for you currently, after their tour in Iraq they will most likely revert to their old MOS and duty description. The infantry guys have chosen an MOS that will include the expectation of closing with and destroying the enemy for the duration of their careers, not just for a year or so.

I dunno; perhaps when they get ready to leave they should just be put in for an award reflecting that they were working outside their MOS, and call that even.

Why doesn't the Army give the non-11 series who are doing the 11 series job (like mffjm8509's troops) a temp desgination as an 11 series so they do qualify for the CIB.

I have a friend who was an 11B and served in the 1st of the 509th (OPFOR at Polk) he did so much 13F work that he got another designation as a 13F. I'm thinking if the Army can or will do this in a peace time Army why not go the other way with the 13 series (or other series) that are doing an 11 series job during war time? Of course this would probably open the flood gates for every swinging Richard to get a CIB.

Just a thought.

It won't change much. The abuses will continue regardless of the badge. Unqualified personnel will get rubber stamped. Personally, I agree with the jaeheads. Everyone is an infantry man first. You see the same thing in rubber stamped ARCOMs, BS,s etc. The level of the award can be determined by rank, duty assignment and who you know.

What you get also depends on the orders.

After the first Gulf war you had to be stationed in the area to get the SWASM and SSI. Any one who went to Camp Doha or the general area TDY got nothing.

That did not apply to joint operations and guys with "Joint" orders would float in now and again, get the medal and SSI then head state side.

Well, on one of our many trips there the "J" guys and some secret squirrels needed an SF company to do some of the set up, assest with the OP and then clean up for them. Our company got tagged for the job. Our battalion (-) was over there but just because of the way the orders were written anybody in our company without it got the SSI while the guys in the next company did not.

Oh well, being a "J" guy does have it's perks evry now and again.

Pete

Pete and all:

I heard of people who flew in and out of and even over RVN just long enough to collect combat pay.

I remember once when a young Lt. was sent to me to strap hang on an operation. The idea was to give the staff and faculty some first hand experience of what it was like on the ground. It really put the teams at risk assigning unknown and untried personnel to accompany us. The young Lt. came panting up to me and said:
" Sarge, I sure hope we make contact."
I ask: "Why?'
He replies: "So I can get my CIB."
I replied: "Sonny, this is recon and if we make contact it will be because we screwed up. " I said a few other things and sent him packing but they may be unprintable. :D

The Wehrmacht had only a few awards. The Iron Cross in its various renditions, parachute wings, the mountain troop insignia, the Infantry Combat Badge and the Closs Combat Badge. Anyone could qualify for the latter, it simply showed that the wearer had closed with and fought the enemy at bayonet and hand grenade range. It didn't degrade from the Infantry Combat Badge which indicated a professional Infantryman who had seen the elephant. Personally, I think the German Army had it right. The CCB will recognize those who have closed with the enemy and the CIB will continue to recognize those who have done so as Infantrymen.

I'm not advocating the award of the CIB to non 11 series MOS. What we were origionaly talking about was a newly proposed Close Combat Badge taht would be awarded to those individuals that are in direct combat and not qualified in an infantry MOS.

Didnt mean to get you all stirred up Terry. My comments about dropping by the team room were for Razor, who does visit us from time to time and I think I still owe him lunch.

I have gained a lot of respect for some of these guys, and in the long run I'd like to see them rewarded in some way for thier contribution. Make it a ribbon like the Marines or whatever. Sure it will get abused, but the reward system always has been. But for those few guys that deserve it, it may mean something.

Hell they even have a sapper tab now......for a school that 90% of all airborne troops that attend pass. I thought that was a bit much...........

mp

Roger that.

Other way around, brother--I owe you lunch and many beers when you get back. Thanks for keeping the pointy end sharp!

Every soldier wants something to wear on his/her uniform, until they realize that everybody else was the same award or badge. Then the attitude changes to "we'll, they're giving this out to everybody. It no long has any meaning..." BS. I say allow all soldiers how are "out there in the Sh**" have an award to say that they're doing what had to be done. The Army shouldn't give them CIB's, but the CCB to say they're doing the similiar things. A 25U RTO for a IN Company is out there humping with the rest of them, shoot at the same bad guys and doing pretty much ths same job as a 11B, but he is also keeping his comms through the mission. He deserves the same reconition of a job well done.

just my $.02...

I agree with Greenhat's statement.

I am merely saying that this will in no way stop rubber stamping and ticket punching. That will continue regardless. Any of you who may have stood the monthly A&D ceremonies at the monthly payday revelies during the RVN era can atgtest to that fact. Some deserved more, some deserved what they got, and some deserved less or nothing. It's a fact of life. All I can say is that unless you have first hand knowledge that a particular award was not deserved you must presume it was and respect that individual.

I remember the first SF trooper to get the MOH in Vietnam. CPT Donlon was the team leader and there was a lot of BS controversy over whether he deserved the medal more than others on the team. Today Col. Donlon is a much respected member and benefactor of the SF community.

little extra historical background:

Germany

The Infanterie-Sturmabzeichen (Infantry Assault Badge, or IAB) was instituted on December 20, 1939 for infantry soldiers who participated in ground combat. It was a silver badge. A bronze version was instituted on June 1, 1940 for Panzergrenadiers and motorized infantry soldiers.

The Panzerkampfabzeichen (Tank Battle Badge, but commonly called the Panzer Assault Badge, or PAB) was also introduced on December 20, 1939 (though there had been tank combat badges in WW1 and the Spanish Civil War). A bronze version was instituted on June 6, 1940 for crews of other armored fighting vehicles who saw ground combat (assault gun, armored car and half-track crews).

The Wehrmacht recognized that there were numerous categories of soldiers who saw combat but did not qualify for the IAB and PAB, so the Allgemeines-Sturmabzeichen (General Assault Badge, or GAB) was added on January 1st, 1940. The main category of soldiers to qualify were combat engineers, combat medics and reconnaissance, artillery, antitank (Panzerjäger), and anti-aircraft units in infantry and armored units.

These were the classes of awards that would correspond to the CIB/CMB and the new Army award. The Nahkampfspange (Close Combat Clasp, or CCC) was a more narrowly focused badge. It required a minimum number of days spent in close combat - not necessarily "hand-to-hand" but, as one Waffen SS veteran described it to a friend of mine, close enough to see the whites of the enemies' eyes. There were three grades - gold, silver and bronze - depending on the number of days of close combat seen. It was not limited to infantry soldiers, but because of the criteria most recipients were soldiers serving in infantry units a battalion level and below. But, for example, battalion and company mortarmen, who could receive the IAB, would not likely qualify for the CCC.

The Luftwaffe added its own Ground Combat Badge (Erdkampfabzeichen der Luftwaffe) on March 31, 1942, and on November 3, 1944 added its own Close Combat Clasp (Nahkampfspange der Luftwaffe) and Tank Battle Badge (Panzerkampfabzeichen der Luftwaffe). Previously, Luftwaffe ground troops, including paratroopers, would have received the Army/Waffen SS awards described above.

United States Army

The CIB was established in World War Two as a doodad to attract people to what was otherwise a not-very-popular MOS. The Air Medal had been established in 1942 for essentially the same purpose, as airmen's morale was pretty low due to high casualties on bombing raids. The Air Medal, though may have led to the creation of the CIB on October 27, 1943. It certainly led to the Bronze Star being established on February 4, 1944: in arguing for the Bronze Star, Gen. Marshall stated "the fact that the ground troops, Infantry in particular, lead miserable lives of extreme discomfort and are the ones who must close in personal combat with the enemy, makes the maintenance of their morale of great importance. The award of the Air Medal have had an adverse reaction on the ground troops, particularly the Infantry Riflemen who are now suffering the heaviest losses, air or ground, in the Army, and enduring the greatest hardships."

Until 1948, award of the CIB also gave one a $10 monthly stipend.

After the CIB was introduced, other branches argued in favor of their own badges, but a War Department review board just after the war ruled these out. Despite this, unofficial versions of a Combat Artilleryman's Badge, a Combat Tanker's Badge and a Combat Cavalryman's Badge showed up. In some cases, these were made by simply pinning a piece of branch insignia on top of a CIB and repainting the blue field in the appropriate branch color, but others involved making a badge and replacing the rifle of the CIB with crossed cannons (on a red background), a tank (on a green background) or crossed sabers (on a yellow background).

The main argument for keeping only the CIB (and CMB) and not approving the others was to maintain the CIB's prestige. The CIB had earned that prestige because of the particularly harrowing nature of infantry combat in World War Two (though I think I might have preferred crawling through the hedgerows to driving around in a Sherman waiting for a Tiger to light me up like a matchbox).

These alternative badges, like their German analogs, would not have been what the Army appears to be envisioning with this CCB. This CCB seems closer to the German CCC, in that while not limited to infantry, it requires infantry-type close combat. As Army official said, the badge "will be presented only to eligible soldiers who are personally present and under fire while engaged in active ground combat" and whose units "close with and destroy the enemy with direct fires."

HEHEHE!! Wanna Bet? :D :D
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