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-   -   unlawful arrest by LEO (http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52730)

Texas_Shooter 09-03-2017 15:12
Heads will roll...
 
http://www.sltrib.com/news/2017/09/0...nurses-arrest/

He really picked on the wrong profession. What he did wasn't that bad, as its been said on this forum he was following orders but because of the public outcry, especially nationwide, someone will need to go and someone will probably be demoted. Should any sort of charges be pressed against him...NO.

Those who yield great authority must exercise great judgement and restraint. Handcuffing a nurse who is CLEARLY following hospital policy is not showing restraint but to me is showing himself to be a hothead and quick to action instead of using his greatest weapon, his mind.

https://youtu.be/yia7qs01z1M

Heres more of the video. In not sure who that is thats talking to her when she's in the car but it seems like a supervisor to the Detective that arrested her.

I wanna know what the DA or ADA said to the arresting officer when they called them to see what they could formally charge her with. If the hospitals lawyers had were already ahead of the cops and calling the District Attorney's Office to see what was going on.

Peregrino 09-03-2017 16:10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas_Shooter (Post 631735)
http://www.sltrib.com/news/2017/09/0...nurses-arrest/

---- Should any sort of charges be pressed against him...NO.-------
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? In other words - I disagree with you - vehemently. Police are endowed by their communities with the power to deprive persons of life and liberty. Those who wield great authority must exercise great judgement and restraint. This officer (?) did none of that, instead choosing to abuse the power inherent in his position. This asshat needs to be prosecuted to the maximum extent of the law. Criminally and again civilly. And his department with him. Start with assault and false imprisonment, maybe add some conspiracy charges and go from there. The only legal way to restrain abusive law enforcement is to make examples of the perpetrators and levy crippling fines against their departments. That way, when the insurance company refuses to pay and the taxpayer is left holding the bag, maybe the citizens will force a house cleaning and the example will induce restraint in other agencies.

And yes - one asshat screws it for everyone. On the other hand, I'm sure there were any number of his fellow police officers who knew he was prone to "acting out" inappropriately and did nothing to prevent it.

Badger52 09-03-2017 16:25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brush Okie (Post 631736)
No that is EXACTLY what you said but because he has a badge you are applying a diffrent standard. If that was some guy on the street tying her up and putting in his van for 20 min then letting her go you would say he needs to go to prison. The fact the was wearing a badge makes no differance.
Last try:
miclo18d inquired about my approach to punishing more than just the officer. I pointed out (to use your street analogy) that he had accomplices (e.g., getaway driver/person who held the victim down/supervisor). Certainly if it's the one perp he needs to get tossed in the can; if there are others in a conspiracy or who facilitate the law-breaking, they're fair game too (as I believe in this case). Nowhere did I imply a different standard because the offender wears a badge.

Although a case could be made, since they are often the benefactors of case-law erring on the side of LE, that they should be held to a higher standard, that's another discussion. He assaulted her & wrongfully imprisoned her subsequent to trying to solicit her to commit a battery that she wasn't going to take part in. That's enough, badge or no badge. Trackin' yet?

Texas_Shooter 09-03-2017 16:25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peregrino (Post 631737)
...This asshat needs to be prosecuted to the maximum extent of the law. Criminally and again civilly. And his department with him. Start with assault and false imprisonment, maybe add some conspiracy charges and go from there. The only legal way to restrain abusive law enforcement is to make examples of the perpetrators and levy crippling fines against their departments. That way, when the insurance company refuses to pay and the taxpayer is left holding the bag, maybe the citizens will force a house cleaning and the example will induce restraint in other agencies.

And yes - one asshat screws it for everyone. On the other hand, I'm sure there were any number of his fellow police officers who knew he was prone to "acting out" inappropriately and did nothing to prevent it.
If she had been slammed up against the wall or pavement or he used her head to dent the top of his roof, I ONE HUNDRED PERCENT agree with you about the criminal and civil punishment part. He will more than likely loose his job and that should be punishment enough for him. This will stain his professional jacket for the rest of his life. Google his name and his name pops up. So he is up shit creek without a paddle. Maybe a rent-a-cop gig where he gets a flash light and maybe some mace. That right there should be punishment enough. And yes you're right one asshat messes it up for everyone. One of the articles said that police departments all over Utah were getting complaints about this incident even though it had nothing to do with their department.

Peregrino 09-03-2017 16:58
Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas_Shooter (Post 631740)
If she had been slammed up against the wall or pavement or he used her head to dent the top of his roof, I ONE HUNDRED PERCENT agree with you about the criminal and civil punishment part. He will more than likely loose his job and that should be punishment enough for him. This will stain his professional jacket for the rest of his life. Google his name and his name pops up. So he is up shit creek without a paddle. Maybe a rent-a-cop gig where he gets a flash light and maybe some mace. That right there should be punishment enough. And yes you're right one asshat messes it up for everyone. One of the articles said that police departments all over Utah were getting complaints about this incident even though it had nothing to do with their department.
It doesn't (or shouldn't) take being slammed up against the wall or pavement or having her head used to dent the top of his roof to initiate criminal and civil sanctions. If you, in the capacity of a private citizen, had done the same to someone, where would you be today? I contend you would be in jail awaiting trial, just like that neo-Nazi tool in WV who pepper sprayed the ANTIFA thug to keep from getting his ass beat by the "counter-demonstrators". Why should a rouge law enforcement agent not face at least the same sanctions?

And no - I don't think I'm being overly harsh. I've never been a cop; however, I spent 28 years as a Soldier. Every time I was someplace "hostile" I knew my every action was subject to second guessing by armchair quarterbacks with no skin in the game. I (just like every other Soldier who goes/has gone into harm's way) was held to an impossible standard because I too had the power of life and/or imprisonment over people with whom I interacted. I was expected to exercise that "great restraint" and I expected to be held accountable if I failed to act as charged. (Besides - it was good policy. Mess over civilians in a COIN conflict and they'll figure out how to kill you; not a problem US cops ever face.) I've no problem demanding that LEOs be held to a similar standard and punished severely when they fail to uphold it. Again - Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? I say it is all of us.

As for losing his job and never getting another one in law enforcement - I don't believe it for a minute. There are too many instances of bad cops moving one county or city over and going right back to work in a different department with a clean slate.

Texas_Shooter 09-03-2017 17:26
If every police officer faced criminal and civil charges for detaining someone then hundreds if not thousands of officers would be liable. Officers temporarily detain people while they check out a story or search a vehicle or let a situation deescalate between two individuals. I think police officers should walk on egg shells and have better interactions with the public but opening them up to that sort of liability (I would think) would essentially hinder them from doing their jobs safely so that everyone can return home at the end of watch. If he has to be made the example and the DA presses charges so be it. Nurse Wubbels at this moment it seems from news articles does not want to take it any further than the apology.

Peregrino 09-03-2017 17:55
Texas Shooter - You and I are never going to see eye to eye on this. What he attempted to force her to do and his reaction when she rightly refused to comply does not equate to the temporary detentions you cite. If she declines to prosecute, that's her decision. I for one will be disappointed because he will have gotten away with violating the public trust. I don't know what your understanding of the concept of a "social contract" is but I contend it's the only thing that maintains a civilized veneer over modern society. His actions (as the actions of any rouge element) violates that compact, provides cause to the anarchists, and weakens the fabric of society. I've spent enough time in countries where the institutions of government were reviled and the social contract didn't exist that I never want to see it here. Unfortunately, we're already on that slippery slope with violent civil unrest and organized movements de-legitimizing the instruments of governance (especially law enforcement). I want this person scapegoated (because his actions make him an ideal sacrifice) to show that the police value the social contract and want to preserve the public trust and confidence. It's probably too little, too late, but it needs to be done.

Badger52 09-03-2017 18:17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas_Shooter (Post 631742)
I think police officers should walk on egg shells and have better interactions with the public but opening them up to that sort of liability (I would think) would essentially hinder them from doing their jobs safely so that everyone can return home at the end of watch.
Curious: How does a lack of immunity from criminal action prevent someone from going home at the end of their watch?

echoes 09-03-2017 19:03
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peregrino (Post 631743)
Texas Shooter - You and I are never going to see eye to eye on this. What he attempted to force her to do and his reaction when she rightly refused to comply does not equate to the temporary detentions you cite. If she declines to prosecute, that's her decision. I for one will be disappointed because he will have gotten away with violating the public trust. I don't know what your understanding of the concept of a "social contract" is but I contend it's the only thing that maintains a civilized veneer over modern society. His actions (as the actions of any rouge element) violates that compact, provides cause to the anarchists, and weakens the fabric of society. I've spent enough time in countries where the institutions of government were reviled and the social contract didn't exist that I never want to see it here. Unfortunately, we're already on that slippery slope with violent civil unrest and organized movements de-legitimizing the instruments of governance (especially law enforcement). I want this person scapegoated (because his actions make him an ideal sacrifice) to show that the police value the social contract and want to preserve the public trust and confidence. It's probably too little, too late, but it needs to be done.

Peregrino Sir,


Very, very well said, IMHO!:munchin


Bravo!!!


Holly

Texas_Shooter 09-03-2017 19:33
At no point have I advocated criminal immunity for this officer or any police officer. As we have seen around the country when police officers over step the bounds of law they are charged and found guilty. He did wrong and he should be punished as such. If they break the law they should be held accountable but other than being an asshat as one QP calls him what can they charge him with?

Peregrino 09-03-2017 19:40
Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas_Shooter (Post 631753)
At no point have I advocated criminal immunity for this officer or any police officer. As we have seen around the country when police officers over step the bounds of law they are charged and found guilty. He did wrong and he should be punished as such. If they break the law they should be held accountable but other than being an asshat as one QP calls him what can they charge him with?
I think Brush Okie lays out an excellent starting point in post #25. YMMV.

miclo18d 09-04-2017 05:01
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brush Okie (Post 631750)
Because there is a big difference between a legal detention of a suspect to investigate a crime and detaining someone illegally. Oh yea I wore a badge for a few years.

Under California law his charges would be as followed

Assault- threats to use force

Battery- actually using force it putting his hands on her and cuffing her. No need to shove her around

Assault under color of authority.

False imprisonment aka kidnapping.

I don't know Utah law but my guess they have similar laws. Also illegal detention is a Federal issue not a state by state case when it involved law enforcement. This should be the immediate response. Although the FBI/DOJ isn't the most "trustworthy" agency to investigate at the moment.


You can not detain anyone you like, you have to have a probable cause or at least reasonable suspecian they committed a crime. In this case the nurse was NOT suspected of a crime she just failed to comply with an illegal order so he got pissed off and cuffed her up. Any reasonable officer in that case should have known that he could not do that under what was known by the officer at that time. He should have known he could not even legally ask her to do a blood draw. It goes back to if he had enough PC why did he screw around making calls to his LT and everyone else, why not get a warrant or arrest the guy so he could do it LEGALLY. He is just a lazy prick that is used to bullying people is what it comes down to.
i sum this up as the "You want to go to jail tonight?" paradigm. If you don't comply, you go to jail, whether or not you have PC or whether or not you intent to charge someone with a crime. Basically, I'm the police and I can do whatever I want! The threat (and that is what it is) is normally enough to ensure compliance.


Implied consent means if someone is unable to give consent for medical treatment due to age or mental status you can treat their medical condition. It has zero to do with investigating a crime.

Here is the worse part, they very well could have been intoxicated but thanks to this dumb ass cop he will NOT be prosecuted. He fucked up this case so bad the DA would be an idiot to prosecute and I doubt a jury would convict. Remember he may have been intoxicated and killed someone, how about justice for the dead guy? All because some ass hat wanted to cut corners and bully hospital staff.
Serious problems require serious solutions. I have always been an advocate of if a person with the public trust breaks the law, the punishment should be more severe.

This guy is a complete tool and the "thin blue line" has screwed itself over by carrying his water. Loyalty is a 2 way street. I've even heard this attitude talked about in team rooms. "No matter how screwed up of something that you do, I'll be there to cover your six". I'll tell you something, I won't go to jail for anyone but myself, especially if your doing something illegal.


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