Don’t mistake my comment about Israel to be anti-Semitic: it is not!

It is anti Israel; IIRC there are several people serving life sentences for being involved in espionage on behalf of her; and against her best ally no less.

Please don’t mistake religion for Politics.

I have witnessed what happens when you mix them.

What about the USS Liberty? No one in Israel has ever answered for that,and no one in the U.S. has attempted to push the issue. Several U.S. Servicemen died and it is all swept under the rug,because Israel is "our ally".

Never thought much of Israel,and I do not think they are much of an "ally".

Why we support Israel
 

I never really understood this until a friend laid it out for me.

The "Rapture" can not happen unless the Jewish people occupy the "Holy Land".

A large portion of those in power are Christians, many others with power and influence are Jewish.

Makes sense that we would have a policy of supporting Israel.

My .02

Foreign Alliances
 

Dennisw,
Therein lies the problem, for both America & Isreal. Israel’s interests are it’s own (or should be). Ditto for America. Unfortunately, we have comingled interests, and sometimes that works out bad for both participants. Israel now feels constrained from taking action against Iran because of American “interest”. Israel has had the appropriate weaponry for over a year, but Netanyahu has not forcefully pursued a policy of changing the Mullah’s mind or deeds. What is “good” for America is not necessarily good for Israel, and vice versa.
“It is our true policy to steer clear of permanent alliances with any portion of the foreign world, so far, I mean, as we are now at liberty to do it” - George Washington farewell address, September 17, 1796

AxeMan,
It would appear that the American Jewish community does not agree with you. 80% of the Jewish vote went to Øbama, who, with any cursory review was aligned with the PA on many issues, and by association (think Rev Wright / Calypso Louie) anti-Israel. While McCain was extremely pro-Israel.
It would appear the American Jewish community voted on Israel, and Israel lost. Groucho’s uncle won.
The Obama formula, based not on an American or Israeli plan but rather on the “Saudi Peace Initiative,”
http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/11179


Remington Raidr,
Yes it will. Israel will eventually have to strike for “self preservation”, and will probably stand alone in a fight against the Muslim world (and it finances). America will “reevaluate” its “foreign entanglements” and “not pick” a “favorite”.

And it goes round and round
SnT

Moderators should NOT have and/or post their opinions?

No one knows you're Jewish unless you inform them thus, this being a QP board you should understand that; one's religious belief comes behind an ODAs "mission(s)" as a whole.:cool:

Stay safe.

Surf
Far be it for me to disagree with Washington, but I believe in our history those horses have already left the barn. We have formed many alliances throughout our history where mutual goals have overridden the sage words of first president. From the allied efforts in WWI and WWII to the current NATO alliance. One could argue that these alliances are not permanent, but they have already lasted close to 100 hundred years. If Washington was alive now he might look at the current World and modify his original philosophy. Maybe not. As you say, our relationship with Israel may hurt us both.

I believe the above is the argument I alluded too. If Israel and the American Jews are martinets and we are mere puppets, why is Obama our Presdient? In fact, it appears Israel and the American Jews for the most part are at odds when it comes to many important issues. Essentially, Penn asked why do we support Israel. I believe his real question is why do we support Israel when it does not seem always to be in our best interest to do so. I agreed with him regarding imports, but Guy pointed out that this is not really true. We do not import physical goods per se, but we do import intellectual propery. Who is to argue which is more valuable.

I believe we support Israel foremost because many Americans are Christians and believe it is our duty to support/protect the Jews. Secondly, as Americans we tend to pull for the little guy. We don't like the idea of folks picking on the little guy even if he happens to be obnoxious at times. Lastly, I'm sure there is a certain amount of truth in what Penn says about there being a lobbying effort which has an impact on how we as Americans view Israel. However, I do not believe the latter reason is the primary cause of our support. Whether or not our support of Israel is a good thing for America, that's for history to confirm or deny. Personally, I'm not Jewish, but I am a Christian. Ultimately I believe Jesus Christ controls history and that Nations rise and fall according their volition and actions subject to his grace and discretion. My admiration for him and his sacrifical life is only rivaled by my admiration of the men and women who put themselves in harms way on our behalf.

As Miquel Cervantes said, "Freedom and honor are two of the most precious gifts the earth holds in its bosom, and a man ought to die for either one." I find honor in supporting Israel. If that makes me a pawn, so be it.

GUY, so what you telling me is Israel no longer has a need for HUMINT. She has hardwired our defense infrastructure; great!!
Now, I have good reason to withdraw from this discussion(?), without referencing Darwin, myth systems, or my blatant ignorance of the rapture, not to mention my innate ability to step on my prodigious Johnston.

If not them - Who?
 

If not them - Who?

Sir,
To the best of my knowledge moderators here are under no restrictions to be moderate and are simply held to the same standards of behavior that any other member here is.

Although I do believe that Penn's position is xenophobic and typically taken by anti-semitic people, I want to make clear that he is not an anti-semitic person. I have spent time with him personally and am quite confident of that.

And while it is true that Hollywood is largely controlled by Jews, gays are totally taking over. :D

All this being said, I think it is important to understand why Penn is wrong on this issue.

This isn't true -- Guy gave some examples. But even if it were, what's the point? The Arabs have oil so we should side with them? I guess we also should side with Chavez and screw our friends in Colombia, for example? I submit that the Israelis should be our friends because they are like us. It's a western-style democracy with a western culture. Very diffferent from its neighbors. Put aside resources and religion and everything else for a second, and look at the region, and I submit it would be easy to pick out who we like and who we don't.


You really think our foreign policy revolves around Israel? I seem to recall something that happened on 9/11/01 that got us involved in the current war. It's actually pretty insulting to America to suggest that we just do what Israel or American Jews want. Are you now going to say the same thing about Taiwan or other allies with ethnic relatives in the US?

If the point here is that our support of Israel caused 9/11 or other terrorist activities, I think you need to read about the Barbary pirates. The struggle against radical Islam (or Islam period, some believe) was required by the nature and goals of the enemy, not by Israel's existence. That is a fiction being used by the enemy to undermine our resolve.

As for Israel not being willing to sacrifice its own troops, I think that is belied by history. Note that Israel has never asked for American troops to defend Israel. Money and weapons, sure, but not troops.

I started typing this in the morning and just had the chance to finish now, so I'll be interested to see if others have replied in the meantime.

Dr. Julie Galambush
 

This past week Dr. Julie Galambush was the visiting scholar to our community sponsored by the Walsh University Institute for Jewish Catholic Studies Fall Symposium. One of the talks I attended was titled "What Every Jew Should Know About Christianity and What Every Christian Should Know About Judaism.” One of the points she made was that non-Jews frequently fail to realize that being Jewish may reflect an ethnicity or a religious affiliation or both.

She has a lot of credibility in this matter both as a scholar and as a Christian who converted to Judaism.

There were several comments in this thread that seemed to exemplify this ethnicity/religion confusion.

My minor for my MA was NELC (Near Eastern Language and Cultures - Hebraic Studies) and one thing I quickly realized is that Judaism and Israel - in their nearly infinite variety - are as complex a set of issues for Jews and Israelis as they are for the rest of the world.

Richard's $.02 :munchin

I'm a loyal Marriott customer. I stay atleast at 10-15 different ones throughout the year, and noticed that all of there bathroom linens (wash clothes and towels) are "Made in Israel".

I found this interesting when i first noticed and wondered "why Israel?". Why not a cheaper provider?

RL and likeminded others thank you for attempting to clear the air; Yes, I am extremely pissed off about our national symbiotic relationship with Israel. (notice the capitalization)

It has been a growing concern, (over years really) of the Arabs and the Israelis inability to reach a settlement, that in my limited scope, is the root cause for the endless strife. (which is also an economic engine).

In that regard, the following seems to be true: open any discussion about the Israelis and you are considered anti Jewish/Semitic …I find that strangely coincidental that the exact same condition exist for the phuckin Muslims. Spare me your tolerance and God is on our side speech…it’s about territory and resources...power. (WTF now this 85’ 1st cru Corton Renardes is running low)

I am personal sick of the religiosity attached to the political.

I Made A Mistake

I reached up into the top of the closet
and took out a pair of blue panties
and showed them to her and
asked "are these yours?"
and she looked and said,
"no, those belong to a dog."
she left after that and I haven't seen
her since. she's not at her place.
I keep going there, leaving notes stuck
into the door. I go back and the notes
are still there. I take the Maltese cross
cut it down from my car mirror, tie it
to her doorknob with a shoelace, leave
a book of poems.
when I go back the next night everything
is still there.
I keep searching the streets for that
blood-wine battleship she drives
with a weak battery, and the doors
hanging from broken hinges.
I drive around the streets
an inch away from weeping,
ashamed of my sentimentality and
possible love.
a confused old man driving in the rain
wondering where the good luck
went.

by Charles Bukowski

Some people are like that. I'm not, and I welcome rational discussion about any aspect of our foreign policy. There is no question that Jewish political influence in this country has a lot to do with our support of Israel over the past 30 years or so. But there also are good reasons for that policy IMHO. Bring it on if you want, Penn. Stand up for your beliefs! :munchin