PR31C - First picture is a JLTV prototype. Completely different. JLTV is an evolving program intended to replace Hummers within the next 10-12 years. It has already sucked up millions without meeting milestones. With luck, that program will be delayed indefinately by the current economic crisis (unless some congressional slimeball sells it as a jobs - read corporate welfare - program). Hybrids were/are one of the propulsion options under consideration. They are NOT ready for prime time. Once again the military budget is seen as a resource to further congressional largess.

I hate to talk down about a company that is veteran owned, and employs local folks...however I've heard that there were some questions as to the impartiality and objectivity in the trials.

The serious issues I read of include:

A. It gets stuck just showing it a picture of a 'real' mud hole.
B. It had some issues getting in the -22... IIRC the crew had to roll the mortar/trailer into the bird, then back the 'Jeep' in, then attach... it was unable to back the trailer in first. or of it were loaded straight on, it couldn't back out?

I looked for the references to these issues but came up dry...

That all said, I'd flog one through some Uwharrie & Upper Tellico trails, and like the TS says, it beats walking... (Until ya sink it, break it, or abandon it... and you're the one on the hand receipt ;) )

Also the majority of the hi-dollar price tag was wrapped up in the mortar & doo-dads for the 0341 crew.

Edit-> Here is what I was refering to:

"The biggest problem for EFSS development, though, is that its 76-inch base width made it too wide for the Osprey. The design was modified to make the mortar fit, but in such a way that it requires the crew spend five to 10 minutes reconfiguring it after unloading, plus three to five minutes to re-assemble the roll-bar cage on the Growler, which is otherwise too tall to fit in the aircraft.

(The Marines have said they also plan to mount a .50-caliber machine gun on the back of the Growler, raising even more engineering questions about vehicle stability and tensile frame strength.)

Width, however, was the Growler's first design hurdle. The basic
Frame for the M151 Jeep, which had its own well-documented roll-over problems, was about the same width as the Osprey's rear hatch, leaving no room for crew to squeeze in and secure the load. The first design called for a 48-inch width, but that was expanded to 50 inches, allowing five inches clearance on either side.

``That exacerbated the roll-over problem,' said Bicknell, a conclusion of other engineers familiar with the Growler who were interviewed by Defense Watch. ``The Marine Corps is getting something that is 10 inches narrower than the (M151) jeep, but they had to keep the same ground clearance. Irrefutable laws of physics tell us that this raises the center of gravity, and that increases the tendency to roll over.

``When the Growler rolls over – and it will – it's going to injure and kill Marines,' said Bicknell. ``It's fairly short, almost a square vehicle. But to be stable, a vehicle has to be longer than it is wide. The Marines can't make it any longer because then it wouldn't fit in the Osprey with the towed mortar or the ammo trailer.'

As is presently configured, the Growler offers very little protection to its occupants. Heavy armor is out because it would make the Growler too heavy to haul in the Osprey.

The best the Marine Corps can hope for, said Jim Mills, a retired Army Special Forces soldier who led the program to develop heavier armor for the Humvee, is to protect the occupants from small arms fire and grenades. There is virtually no way, he said, to protect the Growler from a road mine or an improvised explosive device commonly used in Iraq.

Under current military safety rules, according to USA Today, the Growler would not be authorized for use in Iraq except on an already-secured compound.

Bicknell said he thinks the Marine Corps chose the Growler before designs were even sought and ``went through the motions' of evaluating other design prototypes.

``Their mind was made up before the proposal was made,' said Bicknell. ``That's the only explanation that makes sense as to why the Growler was chosen.'

As evidence, he pointed out that several design requirements were watered down or eliminated entirely during design competition that otherwise would have eliminated the Growler. The ability to drive over a 15-inch obstacle was deleted, as was the requirement that the vehicle be able to tow 53 percent of its own weight from a dead stop on a hard, dry road surface.

Another engineer interviewed by Defense Watch, who asked not to be quoted by name, said the Growler was allowed by Catto's command to retake portions of the evaluation test it initially failed.

For instance, the automotive engineer said that Growler failed a transportability demonstration at Patuxent River Naval Air Station in September 2004. Passage of that test was supposedly required before moving on to other tests, one at Twenty-nine Palms and the other at the Neveda Autmotive Test Center.

The Growler's demonstration team had unacceptable difficulty loading and unloading the Growler on the Osprey. The short wheel base made backing a trailer difficult, so the Marines devised a system to winch the trailer in, rear end first, and then back in the Growler and hook up the trailer once inside the aircraft.

According to that source, the Growler team was allowed ``a re-do,' a chance to retake the transportability test with none of the other competitors present.
``Call it a Growler, call it a Catto Cart, call it what you want,'; said Bicknell, ``but this thing is a piece of crap and there's no other way to say it. It is going to put brave young Marines at an unacceptably high risk of injury or death and that ought to be a crime.'

James Pate is the Deputy Editor for Defense Watch. Hecan be reached at jameslpatejr@adelphia.net (jameslpatejr@%20adelphia.net) Please send comments to DWFeedback@yahoo.com (DWFeedback@yahoo.com)

Walking
 

When the Rangers jumped into the Sudan in 83 to link up with us our SGM said "Sir, here are the trucks for your men."

Commander's reply "We'll walk"

SGM's reply "See that sky glow off on the horizon? Thats where we'll be." And there we went, in our trucks.

Pete

First time I ever saw a ROPU unit attached to an SF Company. If we had the Corps Bread Detachment we'd have been set.

I agree,that's what it is, a "tactical golf cart"..............:rolleyes::p

GB TFS :munchin

This thing reminds me of the old joke about how government contracting works.

Three contractors are bidding to fix a broken fence at the White House. One is from New York , another is from Tennessee, and the third is from Florida. All three go with a White House official to examine the fence.

The Florida contractor takes out a tape measure and does some measuring, then works some figures with a pencil. "Well..." he says, "I figure the job will run about $900...$400 for materials, $400 for my crew, and $100 profit for me."

The Tennessee contractor also does some measuring and figuring, then says, "I can do this job for $700...$300 for materials, $300 for my crew, and $100 profit for me."

The New York contractor doesn't measure or figure, but leans over to the
White House official and whispers, "$2,700."

The official, incredulous, says, "You didn't even measure like the other guys! How did you come up with such a high figure?"

The New York contractor whispers back, "$1000 for me, $1000 for you, and we hire the guy from Tennessee to fix the fence."

"Done!" replies the government official.

On another note, I was on a composite SCUBA ODA OPCON to NOSC to test the MARS inflatable boats and silent running outboard motors. Half of the boats were kevlar and half were neoprene. However, all were made under govt contract by a firm called West Virginia Rubbercrafters who had never made such a boat prior to this--they normally manufactured inflatable swimming pools, individual floating pool rafts, inflatable pool toys, etc. They got the contract under the rules that a % of all govt contracts had to go to minority, non-competitive, small businesses. We had trouble from the git go with the quality of the boats--e.g., transoms coming off during high-speed OTH transits at 26 kts, problems with the automatic-inflation systems after a Limp Duck or lock-out from a sub--and, although the concept was a good one, recommended they be built by either Zodiac or Avon...even if the cost was a bit higher.

Seems as if some things never change...no matter how much you hope! ;)

Richard's $.02 :munchin

TS Wrote: Before I went Special Forces I was a "Paratrooper" airborne infantry. After we jumped out of those wonderful airplanes guess what we did? Walked, everywhere.
If it's got wheels or tracks it beats walking.

TS

An old Tanker explained it to me, this way. . .
"EVERYbody love da Armahh, da Finace love the Armahh -- we keep the enemy away from da money. Da Artillery love the Armahh -- we keep the enemy away from the cannons. Da Air Force love the Armahh -- we keep the enemy away from the runway. But the Infantry love the Armahh da best. Da Infantry love to ride on da Armahh!
(The M60 series and every tank before it came with what was called the grunt rail. Used to hold on to when the tankers didn't have their muddy overboot crammed into them)

Everybody love da Armahh...NOT.
 

My uncle was an Infantry Platoon Leader in the 30th ID during WW2 and literally walked across most of Central Europe...and he thought the "Armahh" were a bunch of prima donna pussies. He used to say that the "Armahh" would go speeding by, waving, shouting, spraying dust or mud...until they hit resistance and lost a tank or two. Then they would take up overwatch positions and await the Infantry to push forward and engage and clear the enemy before advancing once again. He used to chuckle whenever somebody talked about the heroics of the "Armahh" or he heard Gerry Owen being played. ;) OTOH, when I was drafted, he told me that I should think about the "Armahh" because they did get to ride everywhere they went. :p

Personally, I'm glad I ignored his advice and did it my way.

Richard's $.02 :munchin