barney:

You are coming across as a walking encyclopedia of misinformation. From now on, I want a source for your "facts". You seem to be regurgitating what you have read, rather than what you know. Several previous requests for demonstrated proof for your claims have gone unanswered. This is not a board for speculators and those who would use it as a forum for their opinions. Follow the rules or hit the road.

To my knowledge, the FBI has never used water as a test media, they use 10% ballistic gelatin.

There have been efforts to develop a basis for comparison between terminal ballistic performance in water and ballistic gelatin, for people without access to ballistic gelatin. The FBI was not involved in this.

The 10mm never figured into a prominent FBI gunfight. In fact, it was selected AFTER failure of ineffective duty rounds in a major gunfight, notably, the infamous Miami shootout. During this shootout, the agents used duty weapons consisting of primarily 9x19mm (53 rounds), .38 (6 rounds), .357 Magnum (24 rounds of .38+Ps), and 12 gauge shotgun (5 rounds #00 Buck). The 9mm failed utterly, which lead in part to the 10mm being adopted. The bad guys used a 5.56mm carbine, a 12 gauge shotgun, and two .357 Magnum pistols. All injuries to the officers (2 killed, 5 seriously injured) were inflicted by the 5.56mm Ruger carbine. The two felons took six hits, and 12 hits respectively from 9x19, .38, and 12 gauge befiore they died. They were finally killed by a .357 Magnum with .38 +P rounds.

The 10mm as adopted by the FBI in the S&W 1076, soon turned out to be more pistol than many officers, especially "small-statured" ones could handle. It did make the penetration performance requirement of the FBI, which IIRC, was 10"-12". That requirement was due to the poor 9x19mm and .38 Special performance noted above in Miami. Most probably in response to lower qualification scores, the FBI ordered the ammo downloaded to "minus P" specs. This load approximated the performance of the current .40 S&W, but was still in a large handgun which many could not grip properly. This sequence of evolution lead to the development and adoption of the .40 S&W, which would fit in most of the smaller 9mm framed handguns with a beefed up slide.

The popularity of the 9mm globally is primarily due to the number of service weapons chambered for it, the reduced grip size and recoil, and the cheap ammunition available for it. You do realize that the 9x19 is OLDER than the venerable .45 ACP which you seem to feel is ancient. It is merely the even older .30 Mauser case blown out to max diameter. Since neither of the rounds may be used in any configuration other than FMJ in combat against those protected by the Conventions, why would I want to make a .355" hole in a bad guy when I can make one .451"? Neither round is going to produce any expansion beyond the loaded diameter except when it yaws and reverses to continue base forward.

If you believe ballistic gelatin (rather than water) is an adequate test medium, the IWBA has stated that the 31 grain 5.7x28mm SS190 is a woefully inadequate performer, producing results similar to a .17 to .22 rimfire. Not sure what you are on about with it, it has been out for many years and no significant forces have adopted it for combat troops. It launches a small, light bullet, at a moderate velocity which enters and penetrates to 15cm without yawing, creating a small permanent cavity and an insignificant temporary cavity. It is judged to be significantly LESS effective that the 9x19mm FMJ, which is itself a poor performer. Read all about it:

--Dahlstrom D, Powley K, and Gordon C: “Wound Profile of the FN Cartridge (SS 190) Fired from the FN P90 Submachine Gun". Wound Ballistic Review. 4(3):21-26; Spring 2000.

--Fackler M: "Errors & Omissions", Wound Ballistic Review. 1(1):46; Winter 1991.

--Fackler M: "More on the Bizarre Fabrique National P-90", Wound Ballistic Review. 3(1):44-45; 1997.

--FBI Academy Firearms Training Unit. FBI Handgun Ammunition Tests 1989-1995. Quantico, U.S. Department of Justice--Federal Bureau of Investigation.

--Hayes C: “Personal Defense Weapons—Answer in Search of a Question”, Wound Ballistic Review. 5(1):30-36; Spring 2001.

BTW, hydrostatic shock is a discredited figment of the imagination, and has been for years. The FBI never used it, and no known handgun rounds produce it.

I will still agree that shot placement is key. Speed is fine, but accuracy is final.

What are you bringing to this board, other than vitriol, innuendo, and a bad attitude?

TR

Thanks TR. I'm not sure it was worth it but you do provide a quality synopsis. At least you saved me some effort. :p Peregrino

I like this, is it yours?

Nothing like watching folks clear leather in 3/10's of a second only to miss the target.....:rolleyes:

TS

10 seconds of google time and I was able to come up with this:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs7.htm

The quote is attributed to Wyatt Earp, circa 1888, and Bill Jordan in years since then.

TR

Since you are the last to produce it, and I cannot ask Mr. Earp, may I use use it in my sig line?

Thank you TR... it is always a pleasure to read your informed and evolved responses.

Then PM me your "credentials" and we can see if you have the qualifications to speak with such knowledge.

Thanks TR!

I've got a manager at the gunstore that readily admits he's got more money than brains. He's already purchased the five-seven, and has ordered the PS-90 (civvie version). His purchasing has nothing to do with it's claimed performance, he just wants to be an uber-geek and have the toys that Stargate SG-1 has. :D

He'll readily admit that the round would be best served quelling the uprising of squirrels and other rodents, or to put down the zombie hoard.

Infatuation seems to keep this round alive. I hear more about its supposed ability to penetrate body armor from airsofters that come into the store than any combat troopers. So it can penetrate body armor. Lots of ammunition variants can. Penetration of body armor is not what PVT Snuffy typically worries about down-range. He worries about will his ammo drop the insurgent so he can move on to the next one.

We've sold 3 since November, resold 2 of the original 3 to the same type of buyer. FN Herstal brought a few to play with as a demo to the store and the only thing good said by the employees that it was easy and comfortable (recoil wise) to shoot. Accuracy was fine at close range, indoors, at 25 yards. These controlled conditions allow for acceptable accuracy. Let's take that lightweight, under charged round into a windy condition and see how well it bucks the wind. There is no propellant charge that'll compensate for a stiff cross wind. A round that is supposed to be the solution to the 9mm cartridge that has half the weight and twice the speed seems more like snake oil than a solution. This round seems to be pushed more towards the LEO community. Their rep was quick to point out more and more criminals are wearing body armor, especially in barricade situations. OK so Perp #1 is barricaded. He's not going anywhere, so you've got plenty of time to get a marksman/sniper team in place to use high caliber options. Situation for the 5-7 is null then.

This round is like the 45GAP, an idea that was perpetually pimped to the point that it'll fall into the gutter, unwanted, abused, and possibly forgotten.

Hence why god created the continous burn CS canister.

5.7
 

Thank you gentleman, for the very enlightning information on the 5.7.

Totally concur with the poor terminal effects of the 5.7 and HK 4.6 for that matter based upon discussions with SME's in this field.

I do believe that the peruvian(sp?) SEALs used some P-90's during the Japanese embassy raid. I could be wrong about that though.

I have low-banwidth at this location but a little googling might find some pics of the SEALs running for the breach points with P-90's during the hit. I'm almost positive that I saw them during the media footage of the raid.

They did utilize the P90, but if recall correctly the Peruvian Naval FOES was handling other duties during the siege and the majority of the forces engaged in the raid were Army special operations forces, with some Marines also involved.

Attached is a photo of the P90 in use during the raid

I briefly considered buying a PS-90 as sort of a riding carbine, but it doesn't offer anything that my M-Forgery isn't already capable of. The "sexy" ammo capabilities I keep hearing about aren't available on the civilian use ammo, so I don't see a reason to spend that kind of money on what is at best a marginal round. If I ever decide that I simply HAVE TO have something that fires that round, I guess I'll buy one of these uppers instead:

http://www.rhinelandarms.com/


As for shot placement :D

The 5.7
 

I remember when TR explained some of this to me in thread a while back regarding everyone's favorite pistols.

I've since dumped my 5-7 and gone to a Glock 22, which has served me quite well ^_^

As usual, PS.com is an education.

j