Rucksacks [Archive] - Professional Soldiers ®

Para

03-31-2005, 06:22

I find this interesting. There are 3 rucksacks issued:

ALICE, been around since Jesus
http://www.mil-kit-review.com/assets/images/alice1.jpg

MOLLE
http://www.special-warfare.net/data_base/304_backpack/backpack_07/molle2_backpack_03.jpg

SPEARS
http://www.gregorypacks.com/images/prod_images/um21/backpack_l.jpg

I along with everyone else on this board have years under the ALICE ruck. I have tried to pack 10 pounds of shit into a 5 pound bag and have experienced the "if you haven't broken this frame, you haven't carried enough weight" aluminum frame. Yet, this seems to continue to be the preferred ruck amongst those able to make a choice. Benefit: Light, large opening Disadvantage: If you want something at the bottom, you have to empty it. Aluminum external frame

MOLLE: I have no experience with this one, yet seems to be the ruck conventional army is switching to. Slightly larger ruck with a seperate sleeping compartment attached to the bottom. Still an external frame and have heard complaints from more then one person regarding the frame cracking under weight.

SPEAR's: Made by Gregory Mountain Products, a mountain pack manufacture, for the military with an internal frame and suspension harness. Largest capacity of the 3 with a weight limit at 125 lbs. While that may appear extreme, it is realistic in some situations. Access points on the top as well as the bottom through the sleeping compartment. Disadvantage: Weight and the body is not as wide.

What I find interesting is that most seem to prefer using the ALICE and a few go with the MOLLE, but I have yet to see anyone using the SPEAR's version. What is your ruck preference? Why?

Side note: I have been looking at this one designed by Kelty.

http://www.amronintl.com/tactical/products.cfm?id=646

Surgicalcric

03-31-2005, 07:11

GreenSalsa

03-31-2005, 07:17

But she is sweeter and more reliable than any of the others...
in the end I carry ALICE.

:munchin

Para

03-31-2005, 07:41

Have you given any thought to Kifaru? (http://www.kifaru.net)

Having only limited time under the green tick I dont have a preference as to an alternative, but can tell you at my first available juncture I will be finding something other then the ALICE pack.

A for the Kelty pack, Brad has one of them at the Lightfighter Store here on Bragg Blvd if you would like a closer look.

Crip

My preference from civilian experience is internal frame. I like the load carry better. Always feels like I am carrying substantially less weight. I have looked, briefly, at Kifaru but my civilian experience is with Kelty and I am really impressed with their stuff. Their MMR has roughly the same features, but twice the price. The biggest feature I like is the side zippers that allows for another access point to the main compartment without having to unpack. Group gave us Kelty MAP 3500's and I like the mesh back for airflow. I wasn't aware Lightfighter was carrying Kelty. I will have to stop by for a look.

Surgicalcric

03-31-2005, 08:06

I dont know that Brad is stocking them, but there is one on the wall there with the rest of the packs. It is OD.

I am with you on the internal frame packs. I have a Marauder and a Zulu and enjoy them both, but neither have the internal capacity of an ALICE. The Marauder is going to be used as an Aid Bag (if I ever get that far...No comments from the Peanut gallery.) The Zulu is more of an intermediate bag and with the modularity that comes with the PALS coverage on the exterior I could damn near add enough pouches to get it close to the CI of an ALICE, but in no way would I want to. I think this would throw the balance/wear characteristics off. I like the MMR and EMR as well, but damn 4 Washingtons and change.

Other than the mesh backing how does the MAP 3500 stack up against other 3-day/assault packs?

As for comfort in the short term, have you given any thought to an ALIPAD from HighSpeed Gear Inc? (http://www.highspeedgearinc.com) Again, I dont have one, yet, but there are several of the TAC's here who have them and swear by them. I know of a couple guys out at Sage now who purchased them to make an ALICE more user friendly.

just my uneducated .02 YMMV

Crip

casey

03-31-2005, 08:58

Traded a large ALICE for a Bergen once. That thing could hold more shit that a Ford F-150. Course this may explain why I always got stuck with most of the spare battery's and ammo.

Para

03-31-2005, 10:00

Other than the mesh backing how does the MAP 3500 stack up against other 3-day/assault packs?

At 3500 cu.in. it provides a lot of capacity. Consider that the main portion of the MOLLE ruck is only 3000 cu.in. It has the hydration pouch and the heavily padded shoulder straps made from the same mesh material. They are positioned closer in on the collar bone and don't ride out on the shoulders. As an Echo, it would be nice if it had a radio pouch.

As for comfort in the short term, have you given any thought to an ALIPAD from HighSpeed Gear Inc? (http://www.highspeedgearinc.com) Again, I dont have one, yet, but there are several of the TAC's here who have them and swear by them. I know of a couple guys out at Sage now who purchased them to make an ALICE more user friendly.

I have pretty much sworn off the ALICE at this point and will use the MOLLE if need be. I am going to start using the SPEAR's UM21 over the next month to see how I like it. I am in charge of PT for the next month, so time to do some rucking. I just wish it had the side zipper and hydration pouch.

Since we are talking about ALICE frames, Mystery Ranch, who if I remember right, developed the suspension harness system, manufactured a frame for the ALICE called the nice Frame (http://www.mysteryranch.com/military/aaframeloadsling.php). Although, it is some coin at $219.

lksteve

03-31-2005, 10:09

I find this interesting. There are 3 rucksacks issued:

ALICE, been around since Jesus

SPEARS
http://www.gregorypacks.com/images/prod_images/um21/backpack_l.jpg

I along with everyone else on this board have years under the ALICE ruck. I have tried to pack 10 pounds of shit into a 5 pound bag and have experienced the "if you haven't broken this frame, you haven't carried enough weight" aluminum frame. Yet, this seems to continue to be the preferred ruck amongst those able to make a choice. Benefit: Light, large opening Disadvantage: If you want something at the bottom, you have to empty it. Aluminum external frame

What I find interesting is that most seem to prefer using the ALICE and a few go with the MOLLE, but I have yet to see anyone using the SPEAR's version. What is your ruck preference? Why?

Side note: I have been looking at this one designed by Kelty.

i liked the old mountain rucks, somewhat like the Brits' Bergen...it had a lot of the favorable attributes of the ALICE, in my opinion, the weight of the ruck was better distributed and the frame hardly ever bent or deformed...for awhile, i used the frame for an ALICE but some AH with nothing better to worry about than uniformity put the brakes on that endeavor...when i was in BT, we tried the Lowe's system, with detachable pockets, zip-on, zip off stuff, an internal frame, somewhat akin to the SPEARS in appearance....stuff dropped off when going through the woods, it was hard to rig for airborne operations and the zippers rarely worked in cold, icy weather...we gravitated back to the ALICE because, while it didn't hold enough stuff, it was reliable...yeah, i bent my share of frames over the years, but compared to having a pocket with your dry socks in it drop off in the Isar River, it was worth the trade off...

when i was a company commander in Alaska, Natick came up to do a study on soldiers' load...our average ruck, moving about in the Arctic, was around100 pounds...basically, a troop carried his MOPP stuff, two sleeping bags, ammo, socks, food, dry clothes, ponchos, etc...the ALICE packs were filled to the bursting point and they were looking for a solution...it seems, 16 years later, they are still looking...

Surgicalcric

03-31-2005, 10:11

...Since we are talking about ALICE frames, Mystery Ranch, who if I remember right, developed the suspension harness system, manufactured a frame for the ALICE called the nice Frame (http://www.mysteryranch.com/military/aaframeloadsling.php). Although, it is some coin at $219.

I have seen them, but for $219.00 plus the price of an Alice, plus mods to the pack itself to make it user friendly I could just buy an EMR/MMR or 2 of the Kelty's.

And on the note of PT. I would rather ruck everyday of the week than run twice. Some of the guys here swear I move as fast with the ruck on as I do running ...ahhh.

Crip

Para

03-31-2005, 10:22

I have one of those old mountain rucks, CF-19 if memory serves me. We had those issued to us in the early 90's in the 82nd. We just could not use them because they required a single-point release system and Division didn't have any to issue, so they sat in the bottom of the wall locker. It's kind of hard to ask the Powers That Be to spend the money on new equipment like this when the troops will not/can not use it. Kind of hinders the whole R&D process.

Tuukka

03-31-2005, 11:26

This what used during my service, the load capability is of course for specific type of uses.

Positive:

+ Rugged design, can withstand rough use and extreme weather conditions
+ Snow covers on pockets
+ good side pockets
+ Separate, easily accessable pocket for stove and other related kit.
+ 80 litre capacity

Negative:
+ Not easily compressable, if not fully packed
+ Somewhat cumbersome to adjust
+ No breakaway EE/other type pouch (Althogh it does come with very basic day pack)
+ Not the easiest to use if combined with a chest rig/harness.

Huey14

03-31-2005, 13:32

When you guys say "bergen", which one do you mean? Bergen is a general term for a pack, and, IIRC, RM and Army issue differant ones.

Razor

03-31-2005, 15:48

Para, you're referring to the CFP-90, a good idea gone very bad with the addition of a crappy suspension system (the adjustable plastic track) and construction by the lowest bidder. The size was good for a cold weather ruck, as it could hold all your high bulk/low weight snivel gear, but guys would fill it up with dense, heavy items (like batteries, ammo, pyro, etc) and the suspension would inevitably fail, or pockets would rip out because they were only single-stitched.

The SPEAR ruck by Gregory was issued after I got out, so I don't have first-hand experience, but the feeback I've heard from guys that used it was almost unanimously negative. Its damned heavy even before you put anything in it (over 16lbs IIRC), has straps everywhere that are difficult to manage, and is really wide at the bottom. Most of the guys I know that had 'em keep 'em in a box at home. On the upside, its issued, so there's no out-of-pocket costs to you.

Kifarus are expensive, for sure, but the quality is incredible. I've had the chance to look closely at just about everything they offer, and I've not been disappointed a single time. The suspension system works very, very well at tranferring the load to your hips/legs. On the flip side, this means you need to keep your waist clear of gear on belts and such, which may not work with your set up. This, however, is true of all internal frame rucks, so it may not be a big issue for you as you already have experience with civilian versions.

Again, I don't have experience with MOLLE rucks, but the prevailing feedback is that the first generation ruck frames were far too fragile for military use. The second generation frame is supposedly much stronger. There is also supposed to be a new bag issued that is a single, large compartment (similar to the lg ALICE) vice the separate gear/sleeping bag set up currently in use. I don't know when these improvements will become issue items, but I believe the new frame is currently being sold by Eagle on their website.

Surgicalcric

03-31-2005, 15:53

...MOLLE rucks...I don't know when these improvements will become issue items, but I believe the new frame is currently being sold by Eagle on their website.

The Eighty-Deuce has the new Molle System now, or atleast some of them do. I see the young studs on the tank trails all the time with their sleep system hanging off their as...back sides.

Crip

Weazle23

03-31-2005, 20:40

The Eighty-Deuce has the new Molle System now, or atleast some of them do. I see the young studs on the tank trails all the time with their sleep system hanging off their as...back sides.

Crip

Havn't rucked here on post with the MOLLE yet, but we took it too Iraq. It would have been nice to have more than one access point and Crip's right about the sleep system at the bottom hanging off. It seems no matter how tight we had it, the sleeping bag pouch would hang down, bouncing unneccessarily.

CommoGeek

04-01-2005, 01:31

I have the MOLLE with the seperate compartment for the sleep system, 1 long side pouch and two shorter pouches on the other side.

It is a piece of crap.

To close the side pouches you route a strap through a loop on the top flap of the pouch. So you have to remove said strap to access the pouch. I'd much rather have something a bit easier to use. I also seem to carry less with that MOLLE than a Large ALICE. Also I can never seem to get the MOLLE to fit well over my IBA.
YMMV, but I'd take most any other ruck over my issued MOLLE.

Razor

04-01-2005, 14:23

Ok, I did some searching to refresh my memory. The new frame is more of a Generation III, is made from different materials than the first two that had all the breakage problems, and is shaped differently to better conform to a wearer's back.

The bag, referred to as the 'MOLLE Large', is similar to the large ALICE bag in that it is one big compartment. This gets rid of the sleeping bag pouch hanging off the bottom, which folks here have noted as being really annoying. It looks very similar to a large ALICE bag, but with a zipper opening to access the bottom half of the bag from the outside, no radio pouch attachment points on the inside, what appears to be a snap fastening internal divider (think CPF-90 laced divider, only with overlapping snaps), and a mesh map pocket on the inside of the top flap. The bag is 28" tall, 10" deep and 18" wide, and is 4160ci in volume. Depending on construction quality, this may be a viable, cost-effective alternative to the large ALICE bag.

Floyd

04-03-2005, 15:27

The CFP-90 I have had to be triple stitched because kept blowing out on us.
It was isuued in the early 90s to us. Thankfully we were isuued the single point releases so jumping it wasnt a problem.
The originals manufactured by Lowe were much better quality

miller0331

10-07-2005, 11:30

Traded a large ALICE for a Bergen once. That thing could hold more shit that a Ford F-150. Course this may explain why I always got stuck with most of the spare battery's and ammo.

I like that! " Hold more shit than an F-150"...

In the reserve unit I was in here (many years ago...) I was using a black and green REI Morning Star. It was like a footlocker with straps! It held like 5000 ci of gear, internal frame, and padding that would not quit. It was nice as it was a top loading but had access from a front panel also and a zippered section for your bag. Another thing I liked about it, it had a place to slide skis down the sides under the pockets there and mesh pockets on the waist for Nalgene bottles and a detachable waist pack that was waterproof and had a map pocket.

The only thing is, once the Gunney saw that pack, he knew who was going to end up carring all the spare batts and ammo. I think that pack held more shit than deuce and a half!

I was issued a Med ALICE during my active stint and wasn't overly impressed because (1) it killed my back (fixed that with an isomat and riggers tape) (2) it did not hold enough gear for a long CAX. Also, the frames would bend or crack after being thrown out of/into a truck or really rough handling. By the time I turned mine in, it looked like a 100 miles of riggers tape, isomat, and wire....

The ALICE was a good idea at the time but with all the new materials and new thinking in ergonomics, the newer issue rucks are so much better.

Huey14

10-07-2005, 12:09

Does anyone have any experience with Web Tex packs?

FROST18E

10-10-2005, 12:39

Max_Tab

10-11-2005, 02:23

I was fooled at first when I got issued the new SPEARS ruck. I thought it was the best looking piece of gear I had seen in a long time. I packed it with all my gear and went out with the team on a couple rehearsals......... Came back put all my shit back in the ALICE and the spears pack collected dust the rest of the time I was signed for it.

I eventually went with a Tactical Tailor modified ALICE and it was great, cant say enough about it.

On a side note, you ever notice that no matter how much more room your ruck has its always stuffed? Good thing you have a Charlie to come up with the pack list and cross load plan!

I agree 100%. I've used the MOLLE (piece of shit) spears (I liked it, but just too small) Gregory (Great concept, but the fact that it weighed almost 13lbs empty, just impractical) so I have stuck with my Alice modified by Tactical Tailor. I've had it for 6-7 years, and for the most part it's the only one I use.

longtab

10-11-2005, 08:01

Does anyone have any experience with Web Tex packs?

I just surfed into their site. Their packs look ok, but they don't have enough (any) PALS webbing on them or come in coyote brown.

I've rucked an ALICE for 14 years unless I was a rucksack test-dummy. It has its limitations, but like Max_Tab I use a Tactical Tailor ruck. Mine is the MALICE pack #2.

The Reaper

10-11-2005, 08:31

IMHO, most civilian packs are not properly set up for military use.

They hump better, and are much more comfy, but do not have the external pockets we need for military loads (probably the most popular thing being added to ALICE packs is more pockets). Your average Alpine climber probably does not have to drag out a Claymore, IV set, NVGs, a parachute flare, an MRE, a poncho, a spare battery, etc. quickly and quietly. The civvie pack also does not have to be certified for airborne ops, or being dropped on a lowering line to smash into the ground. The average backpacker probably does not have to hump 125 lbs, of lightweight gear either. Finally, I would surmise that Joe Backpacker does not have to wear his fashion pack over body armor and LCE, or shoot move and communicate (simultaneously) while wearing it. In fact, most civvie packs I have seen are designed to be as light as possible and slick externally, except for hardware tie downs and ice axe lash-ups.

The ALICE pack is a compromise. An ideal military ruck would be sized/sizable, mission configurable, have the extra pockets soldiers are paying to add, better materials and construction, PALS webbing over the exterior, a much better frame, with much better shoulder straps and belt.

Just my .02 and worth what you paid for it.

TR

Warrior-Mentor

10-11-2005, 12:44

longtab

10-11-2005, 14:36

... 125 lbs, of lightweight gear ...
TR

Classic!

Huey14

10-11-2005, 17:34

Thank, Longtab. They're supposedly copies of what Brit SF are using, but that didn't seem likely to me. Supposedly the NZ army is getting new packs soon, along with the MOLLE webbing.

Polar Bear

10-11-2005, 19:45

Para have you looked at Dana Design?

PB

Surgicalcric

10-12-2005, 06:57

Para have you looked at Dana Design?

PB

Dana Design, more specifically Dana Gleason, is the owner of Mystery Ranch as well. None of DD's civilian packs are rated to carry the 125 lbs of lightweight gear noted above by TR.

Mystery Ranch's NICE frame looks promising but $219.00 for just the frame seems a bit steep to me. I am sure once I dont have Cadre to watch out for I will be looking for something to replace/upgrade the ALICE I was issued at CIF.

For now its all I have...level playing ground and all...

Crip

oorah4jc

10-12-2005, 16:17

Best thing is the tactical taylor additions.

Two additions to the ALICE that are well worth the money:

Speaking of mods, anyone here use shoulder straps that they find to be better than the issued ones? Mine are in need of replacement, and besides that, they kill!

Warrior-Mentor

10-12-2005, 17:44

A number of places sell a chest strap that can be used to pull the shoulder staps forward across your sternum. They can make the issue shoulder straps more user friendly.

Pro: Helps shift the weight...I liked using them when my arms would start to go numb.

Con: Felt like it restricted my breathing some...so I'd alternate using it and not.

JM

Surgicalcric

10-12-2005, 18:02

Speaking of mods, anyone here use shoulder straps that they find to be better than the issued ones? Mine are in need of replacement, and besides that, they kill!

Ditto what W-M said with regard to the sternum strap.

I have replaced my issue straps and kidney pad with aftermarket ones from Tactical Tailor. They make wearing an ALICE much more comfortable, especially given my shoulder troubles. I carry the load on my hips now...

Eagle Industries also makes aftermarket shoulder and kidney pads. I dont have any experience with the Eagle ones so I will leave commenting on them to those that have...

YMMV,

Crip

oorah4jc

10-12-2005, 18:23

I use the sternum strap on my camelbak and i feel the same problem, restricted breathing after a bit. I looked at the Eagle shoulder straps, and they seem to be the best, but I could buy 2pr of TTailor straps for the price of one of theirs... :eek:

Razor

10-12-2005, 21:19

I only used the issue shoulder straps with a sternum strap, but one other point of consideration if choosing an after-market strap is the adjustment buckle. Eagle makes very high quality gear, but I'm really not crazy about their use of a side-release buckle connecting the upper and lower halves of the strap. Its just another possible failure point, that will leave you in a bind if it should break and you still have miles to go with an infil ruck. TT uses a solid tri-glide buckle. Drill a small hole in the tab, run a loop of gutted 550 through it, and yank on that if you need to let out the strap to dump the ruck quickly. Almost as quick as a side-release, but less likely to fail. Just my personal preference, of course.

david_reeves

10-12-2005, 21:33

I bought a Kifaru EMR based on the reccomendation from a couple guys on LF.
I can say that I wish this ruck had been out there 20 years ago when I first started my career. Handles weight very well, its comfortable, and built like a tank. We've got several guys here in my unit that have isince bought them. They are convinced as well.

For what its worth, I used to rely on my large ALICE, and then my 100lb test monofilament re-stitched CFP-90. Now, I cant even look at them the same way.

Dave

longtab

10-13-2005, 14:01

Para have you looked at Dana Design?

PB

I once owned the Dana Design Astralplane Overkill which was the ruck that the cadre of US Army Northern Warfare Training Center used when I went through BMLC. It was far and away better than proto-type rucks that I've been thrown under. It was a great ruck, but not at all suited for carrying the load or type of loads we do in SF.

MAB32

10-13-2005, 15:36

So, coming from a guy who likes to ruck for the fun of it, my CFP-90 (brand new thanks to DRMO) will eventually fail me sooner than later if I consistently put anything in it that is over say 90+ pounds? I enjoy using it however as it rides nice on my hips. I also had one of the first Lowe Vector packs in the 70's and that lasted a hole season then took a dump. I do notice though that my 90 was made by a plastics company in 96 and is loosing some of its stitching especially along the top flap. I also have a Blackhawk 3-day pack but that thing can't hold much. In anybody elses opinion does any of Blackhawks other long "range packs" hold up nicely?

Polar Bear

10-13-2005, 17:43

It was a great ruck, but not at all suited for carrying the load or type of loads we do in SF.

Longtab or someone else could you please go into more detail. I have loaded my DD many a time above 100+ and never had a problem.

PB

Surgicalcric

10-13-2005, 18:08

...I have loaded my DD many a time above 100+ and never had a problem.

PB

Just because you have loaded it with 100+ lbs doesn't mean it was designed to carry that much weight or carry it often/well. The frame and construction may handle the weight, but if it's not designed to handle that much weight, as most civilian packs aren't, in my experience, you are asking for back/hip/knee trouble in the long run not to mention risking the thing blowing out on you at some point on a trail; not that this doesn't happen with military designed packs.

Dana Gleason has designed some very good packs and continues to do so, but as Longtab stated earlier they, for the most part, aren't SF or oytherwise military friendly by design. There is more to a military pack than just carrying the load. You must have access to what you need when you need it.

Not that I am an expert...just my .02. YMMV.

Crip

Sten

10-13-2005, 18:09

I once owned the Dana Design Astralplane Overkill which was the ruck that the cadre of US Army Northern Warfare Training Center used when I went through BMLC. It was far and away better than proto-type rucks that I've been thrown under. It was a great ruck, but not at all suited for carrying the load or type of loads we do in SF.

Do you think one of the top companies (Dana designs, Gregory, Mountain Hardware) would do a custom design for SF?

I am thinking like a marketing guy here. You guys help in the design, then you get a near perfect ruck and the company can then sell it to idiots like me as the "ARSOF designed and approved ruck".

Razor

10-13-2005, 20:15

Do you think one of the top companies (Dana designs, Gregory, Mountain Hardware) would do a custom design for SF?

I am thinking like a marketing guy here. You guys help in the design, then you get a near perfect ruck and the company can then sell it to idiots like me as the "ARSOF designed and approved ruck".

They have: one was an utter failure, one a shining success. See the posts above about the overly complex and heavy SPEAR ruck, and the rugged, well-built, military-oriented (albeit a little pricey) Kifaru. One was a govt-sponsored catastrophe, the other a private venture that turned into a spiral design process with lots of feedback from the military user.

longtab

10-14-2005, 00:01

They have: one was an utter failure, one a shining success. See the posts above about the overly complex and heavy SPEAR ruck, and the rugged, well-built, military-oriented (albeit a little pricey) Kifaru. One was a govt-sponsored catastrophe, the other a private venture that turned into a spiral design process with lots of feedback from the military user.

x2 Razor! My SPEAR (Gregory) ruck is the ruck that holds all of my WET items in the team room... and thats ALL I use it for.

Polar Bear my AstralPlane Overkill was killed by humping too much Army crap in it. I think the PRC-104, DMDG, and GRA-50 combo along with my WET gear finally did it in. My team was pissed off having to divide my ruck up to a more manageable weight to get off the mountain. It almost blew my back out when it failed and it did hurt my knee [naproxen-therapy... whew]. If I was just humping clothes, a camp stove, Nalgene bottles, and tent... it would probably be my choice ruck. But carry a couple radios, few batteries, DMDG or KL43, antennas, laptop, ammo, NODs... well then just give me my ALICE. Its an easier rig to jump. Sure we have the "jump anything pouch" now, but that alone weights 8-ish pounds.

MAB32 the CFP-90 was a failure when I first evaluated it as a PFC in 1993 in Alaska. I blew out ruck #1's sleeping bag compartment just packing it. Ruck #2's seams on the front panel blew out after a few days in the field in -30° weather. And ruck #3 ripped off my back along the aluminum stay's plastic track while we were ski-joring out. Three rucks... and that was just me. All together I think the platoon went thru over 30 rucksacks that FTX. The other test platoon in Fort Drum went through more rucks than us. I'm sure Natick made some improvements, but I'll forego the retest thank you.

skibum

10-14-2005, 10:33

Sten, check out Mystery Ranch. Their military pack(s) are designed for and issued to a component of SOCOM (so they say). It looks like it's based on Dana's Astralplane, with mods to carry fins and snowshoes on the outside. Your marketing idea sounds good... might want to start small, though, like maybe a Dive watch that's "Official Issue" to the SEALs :cool:

The Astralplane WAS (supposedly) designed to carry 100 lb+ loads, and the AP Overkill was made w/ 1000 dernier cordura (vice the 700 dernier on the regular model) in the hopes of keeping things like radio btrys, ammo cans, etc. from poking holes in it (why would you carry the ammo can, not take the ammo out? Well, in the USMC ammo techs get aggravated when you hand them back 10,000 rounds of linked 7.62, and nothing to put it in to). I think Dana Gleason sold Dana Design, and only has Mystery Ranch as his pack company.

I use an Astralplane for long climbs. Been tempted to add "one more thing" to it. It is BIG.

Mountaineering means carrying a ton of gear. Add mission esential gear for a military operation, and what surprises me is not that there are so many gear failures, but that there aren't many, many more.

david_reeves

10-22-2005, 19:03

Here's a couple pics for comparison of size and suspension systems.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v330/daveinafghanistan/gear/DSC01395.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v330/daveinafghanistan/gear/DSC01394.jpg
Dave

Tactrack

11-02-2005, 00:02

I saw a post with some info on Mystery Ranch in Bozeman, and for what's its worth, I have found the military pack they make (http://www.mysteryranch.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=5_8&products_id=28) to be top notch. I've only carried it in civilian law enforcement missions, though, so I can't speak to its military usefulness.

In the Corps, we had a few Royal Marine bergens lying around and I found them pretty sturdy, but the Mystery Ranch pack I have is truly awesome. So far, its been down on the SW border, humping radios, sensors, gear, etc. (60 lbs that felt like 40) and all over the Wyoming mountains on backcountry patrol. The only danger is over packing it, and the coyote brown/OD green color has worked well in temperate forests and the high desert.

Expensive as a Kifaru, though - but made in the USA, right in my hometown.

slipshoe

11-27-2005, 19:18

Well, being an IET soldier, I'll call this my $0.01....but seeing as how I've been an IET soldier for nearly 2 years without a delay in training or injury, maybe I have more credibility than most. Anyway, when comparing the alice packs I've had access to and the civilian Lowe Alpine model I've used for about 5 years, I would give anything to use something closer to the internal frame Lowe Alpine. At least with regards to frame and comfort.

Here are my complaints with the Alice frame:
1. I broke a brand-new frame with a 40-50 lbs sandbag in the radio compartment. We were having a competition that day, so everyone just had sand bags, and I figured it would be best to distribute the weight up high. Anyway, as soon as I took up a jog during a level stretch, the frame cracked right in the middle of the cross section, and began to poke me in the back. It was a competition, so I just ignored it... nevertheless, after that it was sooo distracting.
2. Even before I broke that frame and with the other frames I had in basic, I noticed noises and squeaks coming from the joints of the frame. I tried taping them, but that never seemed to help much.
3. No matter how I adjust the straps, the top of the frame always seems to hit me in the back of the neck, which makes it really difficult to look up, or take any kind of prone position--I usually dump the ruck, or loosen the straps when I drop to make it easier.

I will say that during the times we wore flak vests, I hardly notice any discomfort from the thin straps, but the squeaking and getting jabbed in the neck is still an issue.

The Reaper

11-27-2005, 19:35

slipshoe:

Yet another guest who fails to read the rules or follow them. Total lack of SA.

Read all of the stickies and post in the proper place before posting elsewhere again.

TR

Hopeful_20

12-30-2005, 01:51

I have not really seen anything in here mentioned about the SOF Ruck made by Balckhawk Industires. I know it is supposed to be an improved verions of the ALICE with LOTS of external pockets and such. I have been torn between that, and an internal aluminum frame ALICE for doing some ruck training and camping. How does everyone feel about this pack? http://elitetacticalsources.com/images/Linux%20Site%20-%20Images/BlackH172.jpg

Respectfully,
Tyler Consugar

PiterM

12-30-2005, 02:14

I have not really seen anything in here mentioned about the SOF Ruck made by Balckhawk Industires. I know it is supposed to be an improved verions of the ALICE with LOTS of external pockets and such.

Do you really consider "LOTS of external pockets and such" to be an improvement? Take a look at military models of KIFARU. Or even good old ALICE. There are not that many external pockets and it's not without a reason. Well desigend pack with easy access to inside and limited number of extermnal pockets (or none at all) is far better when say running through heavy foliage, getting fast out of vehicle etc. At least that's my own experience and my point of view...

Surgicalcric

12-30-2005, 07:52

...SOF Ruck made by Balckhawk Industires... I have been torn between that, and an internal aluminum frame ALICE for doing some ruck training and camping...

disclaimer:: The below is based solely on my experience as a student at SWC.

If your plan is to train with a ruck for a future shot at SFAS just buy a used large ruck and frame. Put 45lbs in it and move out. Its not just walking with weight on your back you are getting used to but also the way the ALICE pack rides on your shoulders and hips. Nothing else brings pain like the Green Tick. If you are not preping for a future shot at SFAS then by all means purchase what you want, but I would go with an internal frame.

I dont have an SOF ruck so I wont comment on them other than to say I dont buy ANYTHING made by BHI and know many people here who dont either. I want to buy once, not twice.

Kifaru makes great packs. I have both a Marauder and a Zulu and like them both equally well. I have had a few internal frame packs and like the Kifaru line the best. They are well designed comfortable and have a lifetime guarantee.

As for the addition of pockets to the outside being an "improvement;" to those individuals forced to use an ALICE pack the addition of external pockets is a VAST improvement over not having them. I have seen quite a few SF guys and students during my tenure here at SWC carrying modified ALICE packs with pockets sewn to every part of the alice body thats not covered by the frame. I had a few pockets added to mine prior to heading to PH-II and did quite a bit of running thru heavy foliage as well as unassing LMTV's and had no more of a problem with it than anyone of the guys struggling with their 100+ lb rucks without mod'd pockets. The only drawback I see to adding pockets is the more space you have the more you will pack.

As a matter of fact, both my Marauder and Zulu are covered with external pockets. Thats why the PALS are there; for the addidion of pockets as mission dictates.

HTH,

Crip

The Reaper

12-30-2005, 08:31

Do you really consider "LOTS of external pockets and such" to be an improvement? Take a look at military models of KIFARU. Or even good old ALICE. There are not that many external pockets and it's not without a reason. Well desigend pack with easy access to inside and limited number of extermnal pockets (or none at all) is far better when say running through heavy foliage, getting fast out of vehicle etc. At least that's my own experience and my point of view...

I do, but what do I know.

Try finding a Claymore, a smoke grenade, a cleaning rod, a first aid kit, or your snivel gear inside a ruck with no pockets. Note the PALS webbing on the outside of the Kifaru rucks and the multitude of accessory pockets that they sell.

James is dead on the money. Most field soldiers would like to add MORE pockets to their ruck.

I wouldn't choose a Blackhawk product if I were serious though.

TR

PiterM

12-30-2005, 12:46

OK, got the point...

But... that brings another question to my mind. Do you prefer standard packs with fixed combination of pockets or modular packs, which can be customized for the very mission? First solution seems to be quite logical as you always know where is what and you can grab what you need instantly, without even thinking. However, on the other hand, if you can customize the pack before the action, you can also optimize the gear / weapon you take on your back. Which option is more often prefered?

(BTW, now I read & learn)

The Reaper

12-30-2005, 12:53

If you always carry the same gear, configured the same way, fixed is fine. Then you have nothing to lose or fall off, or fumble locating. Most soldiers fall into this category, only changing loads as they are assigned to crew-served weapons.

If you require flexibility due to changing equipment, mission, or organization, then modular is better. Note the changing over to the MOLLE system here in the US, Early versions left much to be desired, but the current generation is pretty good.

There is always going to be some anal CO or SNCO who wants everyone to put their gear together the same way so that they look good on parades. For them, a starched potato sack or Boy Scout ruck is probably best.

TR

Hopeful_20

12-30-2005, 21:40

Alright, so stay away from the SOF ruck, Roger.

Reaper,
I had read your rucking post which was very indepth, and enlightening. I have heard from a few Rangers that also rucking with that same weight range for training anywhere from 45-60lbs max is what a hopeful candidate will want to do to alleviate, and avoid possible injury. What I was a little curious about is, I know alot of you Special Forces operators are rucking anywhere from 100-120lbs downrange. I do rem you saying boss that you should ruck with 45-55lbs as a max, but how do you condition yourself to humping a sometimes 50% inscrease in weight?? One thing I found interesting is the amount of weight for a static line parachute jump, or even a HALO jump where you can be carrying about 185-210 lbs :eek:

Respectfully,
Tyler Consugar

Razor

12-30-2005, 22:06

There are times in your life you'll be required to perform an exceedingly difficult task to the best of your ability, regardless of your perceived capability. Mental toughness is what will carry the day during these times. In other words, you suck it up and do what you have to do.

Huey14

12-30-2005, 22:10

As a slight aside, the NZ Army is issuing new webbing now that is completely MOLLE, as well as new packs soon with I've heard are MOLLE but I can't confirm that right now.

The Reaper

12-30-2005, 22:35

Hopeful_20

12-30-2005, 22:53

Reaper, and Razor

Understood.

Respectfully,
Tyler Consugar

Ammodawg

01-23-2006, 22:07

Speaking from my short time under my ruck, I have to say that my MALICE II from tactical tailor with Eagle straps and kidney pad/belt is as comfortable as I could imagine a ruck being. Minimal raw skin on my lower back/sides and I run my Camel-Bak out of the top pouch and into the chest strap to hold it in place for easy access.

longtab

01-24-2006, 17:09

Reaper, and Razor

Understood.

Respectfully,
Tyler Consugar

Tyler, Tyler, Tyler...

I wondered how long it would take you to find this board. :cool:

Training no matter what you’re doing should build you up to face the challenge you expect to encounter. A buddy/mentor of mine always poses the question whenever we conduct training that may appear to be a little “out there’. His question is “Might you have to ______ in combat?” He has filled in the blank with “shoot from a car while driving”, “climb a rope while fully kitted”, “carry another man while closing on a target”, “fight through a house full of smoke”, “climb thru a third-story window as a split-ops team”, “fight hand-to-hand after being pepper spayed”, “fire from your weak side”, “buddy-carry 230lb team-mate and his 100lb rucksack”, “shoot thru a pane glass window”, “pull a wounded team-mate from a HMMV turret”.

Sure you can work on rucking a little smarter, such as comfy boots and rucksacks but the time quickly arrives when ya need to pull on the old jungle boots and strap on the ALICE to get used to the “burn” of an overloaded ALICE. I’m one of the “hurts so good” jungle boots and ALICE pack guys myself.

Once in the Pipeline you’ll quickly realize “how you measure up” regarding all aspects of manhood… rucking, running, flutter-kicks, drinking tolerance, small unit tactics, womanizing prowess, shooting ability, brain-power, humor, map reading, swimming, pull-ups, airborne ops, apparel, care of kit, finances, and of course common sense. These are just a few of the indicators we use in our constant evaluation of others and self. You can be a “stud at rucking”, but a “tird at flutter kicks”, or “suck at land-nav”, but “awesome at mortars”. So work on your rucking and don’t be “that guy” but be that “go-to guy”.

geronimo

01-25-2006, 20:08

Longtab, I'm not quite a young Joe anymore and that post made me think, I wish I had more guys mentor me like that when I was a younger stud.

Thanks for the time that you took to put that down. I'm gonna be using that line alot!

NousDefionsDoc

01-25-2006, 20:35

Which one Brah? His post was full of them!

Longtab, one of the best posts I've seen on the internet.

geronimo

01-25-2006, 21:03

"Might you have to _______ in combat"?

NousDefionsDoc

01-25-2006, 21:23

I liked the guy thing too. Wait...

ropadope

02-04-2006, 15:03

The Reaper

02-04-2006, 16:36

I recently purchased a Blackhawk RAPTOR for hiking, but was dissapointed in that the side pouches were specifically for radio and flares, kem-lights etc. Overall the ruck has lasted over 200 miles of hiking, and far more comfortable than the ALICE ruck. Just looking for some other experience with the Blackhawk products.

Ropadope (Static line ABN)

Ropeadope, you have already been advised to familiarize yourself with the search button.

Look for "Blackhawk", there should be plenty of experience for you to peruse.

If you are trying to set a record for post count on your first day, it is about to end badly for you.

TR

ObliqueApproach

02-04-2006, 18:50

Ropeadope,

7 posts today and 2 yesterday! I personally would get my head down ASAP, because TS is shortly going to be firing for effect.

My .02 mate.:confused:

MtnGoat

02-15-2006, 10:19

I swear by the ALICE. Call me old school.
Best thing is the tactical taylor additions.

Two additions to the ALICE that are well worth the money:

1. the extended closing sewn into the top of the main ruck (to keep stuff from falling out).

2. The enlarged top flap....which is where I kept the things I needed quick access to in the dark (ranger handbook, black watch cap, etc)

JM

I agree with Warrior Mentor, and many other on this Tread.

I would tell new Studs going through the SFQC. If your going to spend some money.. go down to General Jackson, buy a Alice and get it modified by Willie.

One thing I would say to buy is the Extreme Top Lid (XTL) by Kifaru in lieu of the modified ruck top flap that most places do. You have to added some new tabs on your Ruck, but this thing is the heat for top room.

http://www.kifaru.net/MG_XTL.htm

For the missions we are asked to perform these days, you need to be light and self contained and NO EXPENSE SHOULD BE SPARED to see that objective met. Having two packs, your team day pack plus your Mod Alice is the way to go.

I bought an Alice back in 1992, fixed it at a show repair at NTC in 1994, then a repair during the SFQC by Willie. I added a new side pocket in 2003. Cost me about 200.00 back in 1992. Do the math, money well spent.

The SPARES Ruck, Sucks.. 11-13 Lbs empty.. WTF was the Army or G8 think when they BOIP that system. Civilian that hasn’t been under the weight, just behind a desk for 10 years. BS

Aoresteen

08-28-2006, 18:48

MtnGoat wrote:

I would tell new Studs going through the SFQC. If your going to spend some money.. go down to General Jackson, buy a Alice and get it modified by Willie.

Amen to that! I had my ALICE modified by Willie years ago and it was the best money I ever spent. I had the following done: :)

1. All straps converted to quick release (BSR-1A clips)

2. Claymore pouch added over the 3 small snap pockets top rear of pack.

3. Compression bag added on the botton for sleeping gear/poncho ect.

5. Left side pcket running entire length of bag, 3" x 19" 6", zipper top. Fits Pocket Hotel and hydration bladder.

6. Right side pocket 3" x 11" x 6", zipper top.

7. 2 qt canteen straps on right side under new pocket.

With the proper stuff sacks (colored coded) I can find anything relatively quick inside. I still use my Early Winters (remeber them?) stuff sacks fro my BT days.

The reason I settled on ALICE was the fact that I can carry a butt pack on my pistol belt and M-1956 LBE suspenders (rigged with 550 cord, cut the metal buckles off) comfortably. The butt pack gives you a small day pack and it's easy to rig a 60oz or 100oz hydration pack on the back of the suspenders as well. I always felt that you need an e&e kit in you butpack so if you coudn't get back to your main ruck you can survive.

The Reaper

08-29-2006, 08:26

I used a modified ALICE for many years, I carried it on a modified jungle ruck frame. Good gear if the only thing you can use has to be issue. Or at least, have originally been issued.

Civilian rucks generally do not have the external pockets needed for military use. You have to be able to get to food, ammo, batteries, rain gear, Claymores, IVs, antennas, etc. quickly at all times. Your average backpacker does not have that need.

Just got a set of the long side pockets for my Kifaru Navigator.

Great accessory, makes for easy access to frequently needed items like rain gear, food, etc.

The Kifaru packs are bulletproof, superbly designed and constructed, carry almost like they are part of you.

No, you may not use them at SFAS or in the SFQC.

TR

Aoresteen

08-31-2006, 18:19

I agree with Warrior Mentor, and many other on this Tread.

One thing I would say to buy is the Extreme Top Lid (XTL) by Kifaru in lieu of the modified ruck top flap that most places do. You have to added some new tabs on your Ruck, but this thing is the heat for top room.

http://www.kifaru.net/MG_XTL.htm

MtnGoat,

Thanks for the tip on the XTL. I ordered one. :) What's the best way to mod an ALICE to use it? Do you keep the existing flap or is it removed/moded? Where did you add clips?

Monsoon65

08-31-2006, 20:12

MtnGoat,

Thanks for the tip on the XTL. I ordered one. :) What's the best way to mod an ALICE to use it? Do you keep the existing flap or is it removed/moded? Where did you add clips?

That does look sharp! I'd be interested in how to use that with a large ALICE, too.

Mel

09-08-2006, 22:22

The Reaper

09-08-2006, 22:43

Nice looking set-up, Mel.

Thanks for the picture show!

TR

kgoerz

09-08-2006, 23:55

[QUOTE]go down to General Jackson[QUOTE]

Buy on line unless you want throw money away. Lots of sewing shops cheaper also. Or drive over to a Gear maker. There are plenty in Fay. Search on here. Or ask around. Some of the best in Fay work out of their Garage. Need it fast go with a big on line Company? Has the Army officially change from the old Alice from as late as 2001?

Aoresteen

09-09-2006, 09:53

Thanks Mel!

+1 on the photos. My XTL in ACU should be here in about 4 weeks. I can't wait to get it.

Monsoon65

09-13-2006, 16:43

trent

09-13-2006, 17:57

I prefer the ALICE pack.

Surgicalcric

09-14-2006, 05:47

...It is distinct memory the first time I had to sit into a 130 lb pack and roll, crawl, and push my way up and the sweet stab of painful broken frame into your scapula...
-Lyle

So whose 130 lb ruck were you wearing? I know it wasnt yours young figurado.

130 lbs... lol.

Best of luck on TC3...

Crip

The Reaper

09-14-2006, 08:00

There is nothing like that sweet loving caress of your very own ALICE pack. I am sure we have all had a frame or two break on us but hell, thats what 90 mile an hour tape and para cord is made for right? It is distinct memory the first time I had to sit into a 130 lb pack and roll, crawl, and push my way up and the sweet stab of painful broken frame into your scapula... Anyways, the ALICE pack with a little extra love, some McGuyverish rigging, and alot of extra padding will always remain #1 in my book. The point of the matter is that no matter what manufacturer or high speed pack you carry 130 lbs is 130 lbs and it is going to suck, you just have to make yourself love the suck, at least you have a sweet lady with you.
-Lyle

Wow, advice from a man of vast experience.

How many years you got under that ruck?

TR

BMT (RIP)

09-14-2006, 08:23

This is even before TR's time!! ;)

Anyone remember the Mountain Rucksack??

BMT

The Reaper

09-14-2006, 08:38

This is even before TR's time!! ;)

Anyone remember the Mountain Rucksack??

BMT

Had one. And the Jungle Ruck.

Still have the Jungle Ruck frame around here somewhere.

TR

Aoresteen

09-14-2006, 13:48

There is nothing like that sweet loving caress of your very own ALICE pack......I had to sit into a 130 lb pack and roll, crawl, and push my way up ......
-Lyle

130 lbs? How far did you hump with 130 lbs on your back? We never let anyone carry more than 100 lbs. The heaviest load I can remember was Davy Pills loading his pack to 120lbs and the TS (Tiny Young) told him to get it down below 100 lbs. Davy didn't listen and he got a severely sprained ankle on infill. Pissed us all off 'cause we had to break down all his team gear and our packs just got heavier before we could even move off of the DZ.

Surgicalcric

09-14-2006, 16:31

P.S. Edited just for you Crip

I tried to give you a piece of friendly advice about how to conduct yourself when in someone elses home and I get a smartassed reply out of it.

I will leave you to one of the owners next time. I can assure you they wont be as pleasant and understanding as I.

Crip

Monsoon65

09-15-2006, 15:17

This is even before TR's time!! ;)

Anyone remember the Mountain Rucksack??

BMT

One of these??

http://www.atthefront.com/us_gear_mtn_ruck_back.jpg

Books

09-16-2006, 07:36

Aoresteen

04-07-2007, 19:11

Hey guys, for those of you wondering about how to use one of our XTL's on your ALICE packs, here's a link to a thread on our message board with some pics I took of an XTL on an ALICE. I also explain how I did it. Hope this might help you guys that were interested in this setup.

http://forums.kifaru.net/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=001594#000000

Mel

I had Willie at General Jacksons mod my Kifaru XTL to fit my large ALICE. It works great and I have a moded top on the ALICE as well (claymore pouch & RTO zipper).

Willie added two straps to the top of the ALICE with male FASTEX connectors. This required changing the top connectors on the XTL to female FASTEXs (the XLT does not come with female FASTEX on the top but does on the bottom).

Willie then added two straps with male FASTEXs on the lower front of the ALICE pack near where the normal top cinch down straps are. It's a very easy mod.

I haven't had a chance yet to carry it under load but I did fill up the ALICE to check it out. It works well. :)

With this approach you don't have to cut the existing top cinch straps and if you want to remove the XTL you still have a fully functional ALICE pack.

With the four extra FASTEX connectors on the ALICE pack, any number of smaller packs can now be adapted to piggy back on the ALICE. Just add 4 extra female FASTEXs to the pack and strap it on.

Willie is adding this mod to my medium ALICE pack as well so I can share the XTL between them.

Mel

04-07-2007, 19:42

Hey Tony, glad to hear that the XTL is working well on your ALICE pack. I've always heard nothing but good things about Willie's ALICE pack mods. That link you posted from our message board isn't working since we upgraded our board, so here is a new link to that thread with the pics:

http://forums.kifaru.net/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=14849&page=3#Post14849

Mel

Aoresteen

05-05-2007, 08:47

I finally got a chance to take some pictures of the Kifaru XTL on the ALICE. First you have to convert the top connector on the XTL to a 1" female Fastex:

http://www.oresteen.com/alice/xtl1.jpg
http://www.oresteen.com/alice/xtl2.jpg

Now you need to sew 1" male Fastexs on the ALICE ruck. I did this to both my large ALICE and meduium ALICE packs (well Wille at General Jacksons did!).

http://www.oresteen.com/alice/topxtl.jpg
http://www.oresteen.com/alice/backxtl.jpg

The XTL will attach nicely to the ALICE even if you have a claymore pouch on the top flap of the ALICE pack.

Here are some views of the XTL on my large ALICE.

http://www.oresteen.com/alice/back2mods.jpg

http://www.oresteen.com/alice/front.jpg

With this ALICE mod you can also attach a patrol pack:

http://www.oresteen.com/alice/ppmod.jpg
http://www.oresteen.com/alice/pptop.jpg

I also moded an M-1967 sleeping bag carrier to use the 4 atachment points:

http://www.oresteen.com/alice/m1967.jpg
http://www.oresteen.com/alice/m1967top.jpg

My ALICE large ruck has a long side pocket, a short side pocket & 2 qt canteen tiedown, a 7" compression bag on the bottom, a mediun pouch in the middle, a claymore pouch on the top, the RTO zipper on the top, carying handle, re-enforced stitching, and a storm flap with a rto zipper. Buckles converted to FASTEX. Mods were done by Willie at General Jacksons & by Tactical Tailoring.

I use Spec OPs HUMP on the inside of the frame to carry a water bladder. Tactical Tailor super straps & waist belt round it out. I like it a lot. I have a desert camo cover that hides all the green if needed (and a white cover for snow as well).

Atilla

05-11-2009, 02:59

The Reaper

05-11-2009, 08:01

A question for you gentlemen,

I didn't think starting a new thread for this would be a good idea so I tacked it on here I hope that is all right.

I am looking at buying a Tactical Tailor MALICE 3 and adding an HSGI Ali Pad to it. My question is should I buy said gear in OD green or should I buy it in ACU. I much prefer OD but I am just trying to figure out which is the best idea for the future. I don't want to buy this stuff and never get to use it cause the Army has stopped allowing OD as a color for gear or something along those lines which I could envisage with big green weenie radar.

Thoughts and opinions? Thank you in advance.:lifter

Atilla

You aren't in the Army yet. The Army will probably change patterns again by the time you need it, and will issue you a ruck then in the appropriate color at the CIF.

A good officer generally should use the same gear his soldiers do, not look like some tactical Gucci model.

Buy whatever you want for now.

TR

Razor

05-11-2009, 08:27

Stras

05-11-2009, 08:29

A question for you gentlemen,

I didn't think starting a new thread for this would be a good idea so I tacked it on here I hope that is all right.

I am looking at buying a Tactical Tailor MALICE 3 and adding an HSGI Ali Pad to it. My question is should I buy said gear in OD green or should I buy it in ACU. I much prefer OD but I am just trying to figure out which is the best idea for the future. I don't want to buy this stuff and never get to use it cause the Army has stopped allowing OD as a color for gear or something along those lines which I could envisage with big green weenie radar.

Thoughts and opinions? Thank you in advance.:lifter

Atilla

I recommend that you buy your gear in OD or sand colors and stay away from the digi crap. That way you can supplement your gear with Krylon for added camo patterns (whether it's black, white, or green.).

I tend to repaint my gear for hunting every year depending on if I'm hunting in CO in snow, or in brush in TX.

C0B2A

05-11-2009, 10:16

Personally, I'd hold off on the purchase until I got through all the entry-level courses and reported to my new unit. Until then, you'll be issued what you need (note the difference between need and want) to get the job done.

This is some great advice. Save your nickels for now. A lot of units will want you to use there issued items. You won't need anything more than the standard Alice for a long time.

Blitzzz (RIP)

05-11-2009, 15:38

No matter what you buy now, you're going to hate it after you carry a real load for more miles than you what. It just need s to be able to handle about 120 lbs max. Love it, Blitzzz

Atilla

05-11-2009, 16:00

I think I probably should have been more descriptive of my intentions for this gear. It's main use for right now will be personal i.e. camping, hunting, humping etc. I spent a long time looking at some of the high speed stuff from Arcteryx and Kifaru. However this stuff is pricey and it occurred to me that I should get something that I at least might have a chance of getting to use in the Army. I figured it would be best to get something that is closest to the issued gear that my soldiers would be using as TR pointed out. So I settled on the MALICE 3 (I like the separate compartment for the sleeping system, which is one of the only things I liked about the Molle system.) Now this is where I run into the dilemma which may derail my desire to kill two birds with one stone. I have never seen an ACU Alice pack and worry if i get one that if I did want to use it I would appear like the Gucci model TR warned against but if I get OD i will just have an Alice pack like everyone else with a couple of extra pockets. Have you gents seen a switch to ACU Alice would that be a good investment for a personal pack that I might get to use for work. If my gear didn't meet unit standards it would be no biggie cause i would just use the issued gear. Just trying to hedge my bets in the direction that might best facilitate the possibility of using my personal stuff at some point in the future. Again this gear is mostly for personal use right now. Basic question is do you gentlemen think that the Army will ever embrace ACU Alice packs?

Razor and COB2A you both made a good point about saving the dough but I have saved up for this purpose (getting myself a good field pack to use on weekend excursions and for conditioning hikes) and the color choice is just so, as I mentioned, I can possibly use it at a later date.

Stras you raised an interesting idea to me though. Is there a type of gear paint that you gents know of or use that can be removed at a later date. If so then I could go with ACU and always paint it Ranger green or OD green if the situation dictated it. Cant really go the other way, would be hard to paint on ACU pattern.

Thank you for taking the time to help me figure this out. Not trying to be a Gucci model just trying to make a sound investment that may prove useful in more than one area.

Atilla

koz

05-11-2009, 17:14

My suggestion - get a standard Large Alice pack with standard straps, frame, waist pad. It's a good ruck and will serve you well. There are some riggers (there was a good guy at Gen Jackson's @ Ft. Bragg) that do mods on rucks if you want to add extra pockets.

If you show up at a new unit/job with a completely modified ruck, "your soldiers" will notice.

Like Blitzz said, get used to carry heavy loads or medium loads to get your shoulders, and back in shape. I'd avoid jumping right into the heavy loads and trying to run with a ruck on.

Atilla

05-11-2009, 17:31

Thank you Koz,

Part of the reason I am wanting to get an Alice is because I do have experience with them and I always liked them. They are dependable and have stood the test of time. In an effort to offer something pertinent to this thread (I feel bad for kind of highjacking it for the advice you gents are supplying) I would like to add something to think about in regards to the original intent. One thing to consider when choosing a pack in the current environment of operations is to consider how easy it is to rig up to a vehicle. The Molle was abysmal in this regard because the plastic frame would always crack when things got dicey and the vehicle (HUMVEE, LAV, Bradley, etc.) would have to bug out over some rough terrain. We used to use the large D shaped vehicle bolt and catch (cant remember for the life of me right now the nomenclature) and run them through the frame, needless to say the Alice was much better suited to this. I know the majority of the consideration on this site revolves around humping a rig but I just thought it would be relevant to add this other important aspect to the consideration of which packs best suit which situation.

Stras

05-11-2009, 18:43

Attila,

I've used my standard Army Issue ALICE pack (Large, OD Green, type 1 each) for the last 20 years and swear by it. That new MOLLE abortion pack starts off at 30 lbs, and the frigging chest strap is 3 feet long (WHO needs a 3 foot chest strap???). The plastic frame breaks in extreme cold. it sucks!!

The only additions I've made are several additional pockets sewn on by General Jacksons (2 claymore, 2 medium, and 2 large). I've had to replace the frame once in 20 years due to a baaaaaad jump (bent the frame all to hell). I also have a LOWE ruck top flap that I use for extra gear when the weather dictates a little heavier load. Plus it holds a M240B in place on an exercise, but that's beside the point (Blitz did mention the 130lb infil ruck).:eek::eek:

I've used braided 550 cord for the handle on the ruck and the carabiner for years. makes it handy to hang on a scale to check your weight as well. Buy extra straps whenever you see them. Excess of 100lbs tends to wear out the quick releases, though a flexcuff will solve the issue temporarily.

Keep the waist strap on your ALICE. We used to cut them off back in the day, but it comes in handy when you are skiing with your ALICE. If you don't like the straps, just tape them up out of the way.

I use boflage for painting my gear and guns, (it's a flat semi permanent paint). some of the surplus stores will carry it. the kit usually consists of 3 different colors, and a fake leaf for patterns (sand and OD are the two kits I use religiously), and augment with white paint for winter camo, and some white medical tape. If you use Krylon, make sure you get the FLAT colors and not the shiny.

If you are rucking, start with low weight and distance. 35 - 45lbs dry weight at a nice walking pace once or twice a week will toughen your feet up so you can increase your distance (start with 3 miles, and move up 2-3 miles a week). From experience, running with a ruck will lead to medical issues further down the road for you. Short distance spurts are better than a long jog. I recommend not running with one. but it's your choice if you want to walk when you're in your 60's or not.

Stras sends
De Oppresso Liber

tolzerman

05-11-2009, 19:32

Dead On Stras,
My Large ALICE has served me quite well over the years (with a few modifications). However, I did carry a 2nd Gen LOWE for several years and loved it. Only problem was you could OVERPACK the beast. The 1st Gen LOWE was made of Cordura and was a bit heavy to start. 2nd Gen was made of ripstop nylon and was much lighter. I did have to double-stitch most of the critical seams but she held up through thick and thin all those years as an SO living out of her for 5 days at a whack. These new Molle rucks are so heavy and complicated, mine hasn't even seen the light of day since it was issued. I still depend on my LOWE most of the time but the ALICE is right there if the mission dictates.

Zorro

05-11-2009, 22:57

Attila,

I've used my standard Army Issue ALICE pack (Large, OD Green, type 1 each) for the last 20 years and swear by it.
Stras sends
De Oppresso Liber

That's it right there. Good old Alice Pack and get it modified at Gen Jackson's. Increase the top flap size and replace velcro with zipper. Replace the 3 mag holder with a large claymore pouch and the other two pouches for the top 2 corners. Fastex clips to replace the old snap buttons. Nothing has beat that setup for me. I just got issued the new Mystery Ranch pack the other day at my unit but there is something about having humped the Alice for the last 10 years in Ranger, SUT, Sage, etc... where you just know where everything is at and can get to it in complete darkness. I'm going to hump it tomorrow night instead of the new assault pack I was issued.

and for what it's worth. Just buy your own and modify it. It's totally worth it and you can do whatever you want to it and leave the CIF issue one in with the rest of the crap you gotta clean and turn in.

Dozer523

05-12-2009, 07:05

A question for you gentlemen,

I didn't think starting a new thread for this would be a good idea so I tacked it on here I hope that is all right.

I am looking at buying a Tactical Tailor MALICE 3 and adding an HSGI Ali Pad to it. My question is should I buy said gear in OD green or should I buy it in ACU. I much prefer OD but I am just trying to figure out which is the best idea for the future. I don't want to buy this stuff and never get to use it cause the Army has stopped allowing OD as a color for gear or something along those lines which I could envisage with big green weenie radar.

Thoughts and opinions? Thank you in advance.:lifter

Atilla I love this guy! He is my hands-down-favorite wannabe.
#1 He's gonna do what he wants no matter what we recommend. #2 Sure you don't want to skip that "Robin Sage 'G'" experience and go for the Effective Writing class? ACTIVE VOICE. #3 Anyone else go all "Emo" over color schemes?

Atilla

05-12-2009, 07:44

I love this guy! He is my hands-down-favorite wannabe.
#1 He's gonna do what he wants no matter what we recommend. #2 Sure you don't want to skip that "Robin Sage 'G'" experience and go for the Effective Writing class? ACTIVE VOICE. #3 Anyone else go all "Emo" over color schemes?

I just can't get over on you Dozer. I wondered how long it would be before you showed up to put me in my place. I don't think I shared a decision on the matter, just rounding up opinions, which I am always very grateful for. Isn't that the idea, I get advice and opinions and then make decisions for myself, I figured we are all grown men here and no one would get especially butt hurt over my asking about rucksacks in a thread titled rucksacks, guess I was wrong. You are right about passive voice, I have a horrible habit of using it too heavily. Ill be sure to check into the Maybeiline, I certainly don't want my mascara running in the field. If you don't mind I'd like to ask you if its me in particular that you are opposed to or just the way I ask my questions?
:lifter

C0B2A

05-12-2009, 10:31

Dozer523

05-12-2009, 17:03

I just can't get over on you Dozer. I wondered how long it would be before you showed up to put me in my place. I don't think I shared a decision on the matter, just rounding up opinions, which I am always very grateful for. Isn't that the idea, I get advice and opinions and then make decisions for myself, I figured we are all grown men here and no one would get especially butt hurt over my asking about rucksacks in a thread titled rucksacks, guess I was wrong. You are right about passive voice, I have a horrible habit of using it too heavily. Ill be sure to check into the Maybeiline, I certainly don't want my mascara running in the field. If you don't mind I'd like to ask you if its me in particular that you are opposed to or just the way I ask my questions?
Atilla, lighten up. I do it because you let me. KKHH:boohoo
Butt hurt? :confused: I never heard that one before. Is that sort of like "pain in the ass"?
It kind of surprises me, too. I've been accused of being the GO TO GUY if you want a little encouragement or need to hear "ahhh-go-ahead-do-it-if-you-want-it-enough". Don't get me going on my "They" rant!*
It must be something special about you. Wanna mentor?:) Maybe we can make that Special.

*BTW "They" tapped out on the annoying littte thing with me!:lifter Beers in the trunk!

Atilla

05-12-2009, 17:25

At this point I am going to give you the normal advice that is handed out here to someone in your position.

Read more, Type less

Usually try to follow that protocol and try to ask questions I haven't seen addressed. My last post was my attempt to respond to Dozers desire for me to grab ahold of my sack more often and not offend him with flattery (he has been subtly pushing to do this). Sorry if it offended. :lifter

At the risk of further irritating Dozer (or any of the other gents here who I seem to rub the wrong way). I wanted to give you all an AAR on what I decided. I ordered a Malice 3 and had them add some PALS webbing as well as the RTO zipper. I have humped the Alice long distances with heavy loads before and just couldn't get away from the established bond created from embracing the suck with the big green tick on my back (Also, as I mentioned before, I humped the Molle but couldn't stand it so all the reaffirmation about the Alice is really what sold me). Also ordered an XLT from Kifaru and asked both TT and Kifaru to add the necessary clips that Aoresteen suggested for the mod. Already have an Alipad from HSGI. Ordered it all in OD based on what Stras pointed out which made a lot of sense. It's basically the same setup Aoresteen has so I thank him for taking the time to share his info. We were never allowed to carry modded rucks in LAR so I never invested in a personal one which is partly why i found this thread really informative and I learned some stuff that I didn't know before. Now I have purchased one and however it plays out I will have a solid pack for personal use. Really excited about it and already planning a wilderness excursion with some buddies to break it in. Thanks again for all the advice gents. I apologize for any irritation caused, but I feel like you all helped me make a better informed decision and wanted to let you all know the end state.

Atilla

Atilla

05-12-2009, 17:30

Beers in the trunk!

Dozer if I ever get the privilege of sharing some beer with you there is no way that (and this is according to protocol) I would be able to drink beer paid for from your coffers until I provide some purchased from my own.:lifter

Dozer523

05-12-2009, 22:01

I wanted to give you all an AAR on what I decided. I ordered a Malice 3 and blah blah blah . . . What? You got a Malice? Oh wait . . .
Also ordered an XLT from Kifaru and asked both TT and Kifaru to add the necessary clips that Aoresteen suggested for the mod. Another one? For rucking on the odd numbered days?

Already have an Alipad from HSGI. You have 3? I bet you have lots of sleeping bags too, or three or four. . . I bet you are the Man for All Seasons.

We were never allowed to carry modded rucks in LAR so I never invested in a personal one which is partly why i found this thread really informative and I learned some stuff that I didn't know before. Now I have purchased one . . . Four Rucks?!!
and however it plays out I will have a solid pack for personal use. Which one?

I feel like you all helped me make a better informed decision and wanted to let you all know the end state. I feel better, thanks. You are becoming my hobby. I like you more and more every minute! BTW I could use a new pair of mountaineering skis

AtillaKKHH, TTFN

Zorro

05-12-2009, 23:47

I wanted to give you all an AAR on what I decided.

Atilla

please stop talking like a cadet who is excited to use acronyms. One of the new guys in my Company said "hooah" the other day (and not in the sarcastic SF way.) You could have heard a pin drop from the open team room doors. I even saw faces of confusion.

sleepyhead4

05-13-2009, 13:24

Atilla,

As I've mentioned in my previous recommendation to you, stop being "that guy" who has to express everything that is in his head. We are all glad that you are motivated, but you are going down the road of making a name for yourself as a "chatty cadet." Just stay in your lane, take advises and recommendations, take ass chewings in stride, and stop posting to explain everything. This one simple phrase will save you much troubles and heartaches in the Army, and in life, "No excuses." End it at that unless someone presses for clarification. Otherwise, you are just going to be a target for others.

Again, enthusiasm and motivation is good...to a point. Sometimes quiet professionalism is better.

Retread

05-13-2009, 13:48

Well, FWIW, you asked about Blackhawk, so I will give you my experience. I was fortunate enough that my unit allowed optional gear before deploying to Iraq. There weren't a lot of gear companies at the time, and even less that had a web site you could order from. So I went with Blackhawk. I ordered this pack: http://www.tactical.com/sof-ruck-packs.html?utm_source=feedperfect&utm_medium=sce&utm_campaign=feedperfect&productid=60SOF1AU&channelid=FROOG

I carried about 100# in Iraq, give or take 10# depending on state of resupply or which gear was spread-loaded to me. This pack performed really well. In fact, I still have it, and it continues to hold up and perform well. The major complaint I have with it is that the shoulder straps are too thin, but that is easily remedied.

I will add a cautionary note, though: Typical of Blackhawk's generally inconsistent quality, I spoke to someone who had the complete opposite experience with theirs. It fell apart at around 70# at the yoke as it attaches to the frame. Blackhawk replaced it for free, but remember, YMMV.

Otherwise, the pouches are set up really nicely, the side pouches will carry 2 60mm mortar rounds or 1 81mm mortar round OR 1 hydration bladder each. Top flap pouch will hold a Claymore kit, etc. Zero issues with the zippers failing or the fastex buckles.

Hope this helps.

Edited because my computer-fu is weak.

bosljeff

05-14-2009, 12:51

Crip,

FWIW, I asked Trent about the 130 lbs as you suggested. Apparently, so the story goes, in the infinite wisdom of SOPC 2, no one bothered to cross load the 240 ammo and he had the gunner's job. About two miles into the FTX, the instructors got tired of yelling at him for falling behind and went to investigate. . . so it goes.

Books.

Happened to me many a time during SUT...cross load sometimes happened sometimes didn't. Most of the time the biggest guys (me) carried the biggest loads and I remember one specific incident where I finally raised my hand and asked for a weight and the weights ranged from 90 to 120 lbs, mine being 120. Right, wrong, indifferent...who knows? We all get through it somehow.

BTW, anyone have any good luck with London Bridge's Ruck? Its suspension system looks like that of an actual mountaineering pack yet still retains a "true" ruck design...

http://www.londonbridgetrading.com/m1webgear/ProductDetails.aspx?PartUniqueID=B8F52761-DBE0-49F8-A196-F14477786204

Stras

05-14-2009, 20:39

The other thing that you guys going through the course, or pondering about putting in your packet may want to think about. Is your high speed low drag rucksack made by "company X" approved to jump either static line or MFF? And I'm not talking is it approved by the company that makes it. You may want to research USASOC Reg 350-2 (Airborne Training, 4 Jun 08), FM 3-05.211(MFF) and FM 3-21.220(SL Operations, Sep 2003) for further info which cover airborne operations and research some safety of use messages.

It would suck to spend all that money on a nice ruck, and then not be able to use it in the woods. :boohoo

Just something for you to think about........:munchin

Tacticalinterve

05-16-2009, 10:10

Great thread.
Now I only was SWAT Cop and ran Field Training Program. That menas I had to supervise all the new recruist who had all the answers. It prepared me to be a father. LOL I notice some things are exactly the same between LE and SF
1. Keep mouth shut and do as told
2. Use gear issued until you know the difference. Anyone showing up with modified kit is looked at as Geek and potential problem
3. Dont stand out as having answers until questions are asked. You dont know and they dont wnat to hear your opinions.

I really enjoy this website. I dont post much because most often the questions asked are not for me. I get alot of great information here. Funny as LE Sniper I used medium Alice for about twenty years and loved it. Now I have a dozen rucks and dont put enough miles on any of them.

Back to reading

Blitzzz (RIP)

05-16-2009, 19:35

Tacticalinterve, Item number two is a bit false. one would not be looked at as a geek for bringing in new type stuff. Innovation is always scrutinized for it's good potential.. Off times many improvements come from down to up. The user will always find a better modification to make our hardships a bit easier if possible with no loss to mission capabilities.

Tacticalinterve

05-17-2009, 09:50

Blitzz, your saying a guy going to a Q Course would not be given a second strange look for non standard gear? I dont mean a guy already through selection I mean brand spankin new guy. If so I guess I am wrong but reading here it sure seems to support my theroy

Blitzzz (RIP)

05-17-2009, 13:54

You made no mention of Q course. There as far as I know there is no other than issued equipment. At least there wasn't in '68. Training is pretty much always well defined as to what will and will not be taken.

The Reaper

05-17-2009, 19:11

Things change.

TR

Stras

05-18-2009, 07:54

In order to not give an advantage to other soldiers going through the SFQC, you are only allowed issued items currently. the issued item is a Large Alice Ruck with NO extra pockets.

The cadre for each phase will have the latest packing list, which will clearly identify what you are allowed to have.

Utah Bob

05-18-2009, 08:52

Brings back memories of my youth. Blue skies, German beer, humping the bergs with the generator stuffed in the 1942 vintage Mountain Ruck.:p

rltipton

05-18-2009, 08:54

1. If you're a wannabe you should be humping what you are going to hump in school - Alice. Put a zipper around the bottom and a pouch on the lid. Leave the noisy pussy pads at home and move out.

2. If you only take that fancy ruck and it breaks you are f***ed. You can get new parts for Alice anywhere (including Camp MacKall...they don't have parts for that other shit). Save your money and tear up the Army's gear instead of your own.

3. If you deploy with multiple rucks you are using extra space that would be better used for a couple cases of beverages.

4. *Stepping back into Team Sergeant role: Don't show up to the teamroom with a bunch of REI ninja gear to pile on top of the already huge mountain of commercial shit we don't use. We will give you literally everything you will need to survive and thrive. Bring in your issued shit, PT and hygeine gear only. Leave the rest of it at home!

5. Having a big green tick on your back sucks regardless who made it. 110 lbs is 110 lbs...

Tacticalinterve

05-19-2009, 08:01

Blitz, sorry for confusing post. I was talking about new guys period not once individual is proven and passed what ever tests given.

Stras

05-19-2009, 19:52

Brings back memories of my youth. Blue skies, German beer, humping the bergs with the generator stuffed in the 1942 vintage Mountain Ruck.:p

Utah Bob,

You wouldn't happen to have an extra kidney pad for that 1942 Mountain Ruck laying around??? I found one in a surplus store a couple of years ago, minus the waist pad, but still in good shape, I believe it's dated 1943.

Stras

Aoresteen

05-27-2009, 22:27

An update on my modded ALICE rucksack. I took it to IRAQ and left the MOLLE stuff behind except for the MOLLE waist pack.

The KIFARU Extreme Top Lid (XTL) proved to be very useful. I used it all the time to store quick needed items. Well worth the expense. The large ALICE was almost too big. I tended to pack on the light side (with body armor you have a lot a weight already) and not fill it to the max. My bedroll was the ACU bivy sack (good piece of gear) and a poncho liner. I kept these in the stuff sack that Willie added to the bottom of my ALICE ruck. Having a carry handle sewn in the top of the ruck was another useful mod. Highly recommended.

As to colors that were used on gear in Iraq, it was a mix of OD and ACU. Occasionally you would see someone with coyote brown stuff. 10th GRP, 5th GRP & the SEAL teams all had mixed colors (at least the teams I worked with did). Marines were pretty standard with brown but you did see an occasional OD ALICE in the mix. Air Force personnel didn’t seem to have any rucks…:D.

Regular units had a mix of gear as well. Many units were backfilled with reserve soldiers (we had a number of support soldiers from the 104th Div) so mixed gear was/is the norm.

I saw a lot of soldiers using ALICE packs, most by choice. The MOLLE assault pack was used everywhere and the MOLLE main ruck was seen on occasion but not as often as you would expect.

I was in the TAJI/Baghdad area and these comments reflect what I saw. Other areas could have been different. Before buying any gear, check with your TS, XO, or CDR. Not on a team yet? Wait and just use what is issued to you.

What would I take if I were to deploy tomorrow? Without a doubt I’d take my modded ALICE with the KIFARU top lid.

Utah Bob

05-29-2009, 16:55

Utah Bob,

You wouldn't happen to have an extra kidney pad for that 1942 Mountain Ruck laying around??? I found one in a surplus store a couple of years ago, minus the waist pad, but still in good shape, I believe it's dated 1943.

Stras

I expect they've all just about turned into dust by now.;)
Except for those damn skis!:D

Aoresteen

07-20-2009, 09:12

I've been at Ft. Bragg for my reserve Annual Training and decided to have Willie add a couple of sliders to my external pocket zippers on my ALICE large rucksack.

We got talking about frames and Willie told me he could add straps to the back of the ALICE large pack so that you can mount it on a MOLLE II frame.

I had Willie do the mod and I put it on a new MOLLE II frame that I got at Clothing Sales. Works perfectly!! Cost was $12.50. You can still use the ALICE frame if you like; the mod does not alter the ALICE mounting system.

So if you don’t like the ALICE frame and like the MOLLE II frame you can use the ALICE large rucksack with a MOLLE II frame.

(Willie works out of General Jackson's on Yadkin Road in Fayetteville NC).

FIST

08-10-2009, 08:28

Aoresteen, Do you know if I can mail my ruck to Willie for him to mod my ruck? Im thinking of stealing your XTL/ ALICE idea...

Also, does anyone know of a solution for a noisy (creaky) waist pad and shoulder straps on a MOLLE II frame. It's been driving me nuts this entire tour and I gotta get it fixed as soon as I get home. I was thinking tubular webbing to replace to original attachment straps, because it seems softer but with the similar loadbearing. Do you guys have any ideas or recommendations?

SSG

dac

09-01-2009, 12:33

Has anyone tried or had their hands on the Mystery Ranch 3-Day Assault Pack? I need to pick up a good day pack that I can convert from laptop mode to weekend backpacking mode. I was thinking in the 2000 cu-in neighborhood, the T.H.E. Pack looks pretty good as well.

On a side note, Mystery Ranch is looking for photographs of their tactical gear for their new website.

Money is not a problem because work is buying it. I am okay with having a larger EDC pack because I am large too. :D

Most days I will be carrying two laptops, 17" Macbook Pro and 17" Dell. I also carry a bunch of normal computer nerd stuff like books and cd's. When I travel I want to be able to use the same pack but add in a change of clothes and still be able to fit it in the overhead. (Although most of my travel these days is driving to Tampa or Ft. Bragg, but I digress) I'm not too worried about the laptops having separate padding.

When I get to go day-hiking I just have the usual stuff plus kid stuff and wife stuff. Nothing special there. I was really wondering how the 3-zip feature works, or doesn't work on the Mystery Ranch stuff.

frostfire

11-08-2009, 14:59

The consensus from this thread and others seem to point out that the MOLLE sucks for one reason or another. Having said that, for those who have humped 70lbs+ on both ALICE and MOLLE, would rucking skills with MOLLE transfer to one with ALICE?

Background:
1. If you're a wannabe you should be humping what you are going to hump in school - Alice. Put a zipper around the bottom and a pouch on the lid. Leave the noisy pussy pads at home and move out....

Point noted. I won't get any rucks issued and as the civvie Kelty pack is starting to disintegrate, I'm looking for a military-issue ruck. I get a good deal for $40 on a slightly-used MOLLE ruck and frame, whereas I'd spend $70 and up for an ALICE. As much as possible, I'd like to save $$$ for extra boots.

abc_123

11-08-2009, 18:15

Having said that, for those who have humped 70lbs+ on both ALICE and MOLLE, would rucking skills with MOLLE transfer to one with ALICE?

Lungs and legs would get the same workout. Putting one foot in front of the other skills would be the same. Lower back stress would be slightly different due to the fact that only the big green tick rides like the big green tick. Is it a deal breaker? ... I don't know. May or ma not be for you. Chafing points (kidney pad) etc. would be different between the two...so is how they feel on your shoulders.

General fitness and I'd say both are equal. Training for something specific where large ALICE w/ LC-1 frame is the standard, then I would (and did) get that. If you can't/won't , does it doom you to automatic failure? Of course not... what you have between your ears and in your gut are the biggest factors in success or failure in many endevors.

I'm sure that didn't help.:D

frostfire

11-09-2009, 18:15

Lungs and legs would get the same workout. Putting one foot in front of the other skills would be the same. Lower back stress would be slightly different due to the fact that only the big green tick rides like the big green tick. Is it a deal breaker? ... I don't know. May or ma not be for you. Chafing points (kidney pad) etc. would be different between the two...so is how they feel on your shoulders.

General fitness and I'd say both are equal. Training for something specific where large ALICE w/ LC-1 frame is the standard, then I would (and did) get that. If you can't/won't , does it doom you to automatic failure? Of course not... what you have between your ears and in your gut are the biggest factors in success or failure in many endevors.

I'm sure that didn't help.:D

That was extremely helpful to make an informed decision. Thank you.

zeke

11-09-2009, 19:01

Background:

Point noted. I won't get any rucks issued and as the civvie Kelty pack is starting to disintegrate, I'm looking for a military-issue ruck. I get a good deal for $40 on a slightly-used MOLLE ruck and frame, whereas I'd spend $70 and up for an ALICE. As much as possible, I'd like to save $$$ for extra boots.

Frostfire,
I found a decent used large ALICE and frame on ebay for $40 shipped. I had to keep looking for a couple of weeks but they are there quite often. Also, I replaced the back pad with some new padding as the padding was well used.

Sidenote: I found Wellco ripple soles for $49.97 at Sportsman's Guide. (I remember Warrior Mentor mentioning ripple soles in Get Selected). type www then sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/mens-wellco-mil-spec-army-ripple-tw-tactical-boots-tan.aspx?a=545711

fstbk272

12-04-2009, 13:21

NoRoadtrippin

12-05-2009, 17:57

Point noted. I won't get any rucks issued and as the civvie Kelty pack is starting to disintegrate, I'm looking for a military-issue ruck. I get a good deal for $40 on a slightly-used MOLLE ruck and frame, whereas I'd spend $70 and up for an ALICE. As much as possible, I'd like to save $$$ for extra boots.

FF, FWIW, there are a lot of civilian packs/rucks out there that will last years longer than a Kelty but are considerably more comfortable than either an ALICE or a MOLLE. Keep in mind that much of the conversation here is constrained by the idea that there are limits based on the unit/school or the operating environment. For a civvie trip you don't have those limits. I would highly recommend something made by Gregory, Osprey, or Arc'teryx both for comfort and durability over the Kelty or ALICE/MOLLE options. I think you would be much happier.

My .02

frostfire

12-05-2009, 19:04

I have used both the MOLLE II and the ALICE packs. Now I dont have alot of use with either, but I have both. I first got the MOLLE ruck. Its very nice, but I've only had about 75lbs in it total. Haven't cracked it, yet. Its very comfortable, but i'm a little bit small for the frame ( it's more for a man around 6ft tall, and not 5-6).

The ALICE when I first used it, I hated because of the horrible straps. But the unit I train with requires us to use them. So I got a new ALICE off ebay, and got the MOLLE straps and kidney belt and fit them to the ruck ( with some modifications; very minor) and I tell you what its super sweet! Best ruck combo as far as feel and size. Its excellent. And you can jump with it too ( why the unit wont allow us to use the plastic frame MOLLE) - Roger

Thank you for the input, fstbk272. You're the first who seems to prefer MOLLE to ALICE. If you can post a pic of that modification, that'd be great. I finally found used Alice for $29.97 with frame included in a local surplus store. Plenty of them, too. Anyone interested, I'll PM the place. As horrible as the straps are, it's better than the Kelty which already lost its kidney belt so all the weight are on my shoulders all the time and the bottom digs to my lower back.

NoRoadtrippin, it's definitely not for civvie trip. I'm working on getting rucking (with all the constraints) into second nature, so when opportunity presents itself, I will be ready.

BMT (RIP)

12-05-2009, 19:23

I don't know how many ton's the ole mountain would hold!
During Branch FTX at Pisgah, NC DOT put me on the scale's and issued me an over weight ticket.

Now beat that lie!!

BMT

Grenzer29

12-06-2009, 01:06

Thank you for the input, fstbk272. You're the first who seems to prefer MOLLE to ALICE. If you can post a pic of that modification, that'd be great.

Personally I never had a problem with either type of ruck. In my opinion it's all in adjusting and wearing the ruck properly (using the waist belt instead of shoulder straps to carry the weight). I'm not sure if this is what he did, but this is what I did, and it works great:

http://www.survivalistboards.com/showthread.php?t=47472&page=2

Shock

04-09-2010, 11:41

I've been using the new IDF issue LAW bag. Internal frame, and can hold 120+ pnds with enough room for anything I could need and enough zippers to get at your things from multiple sides. Rucked over mountains for days with it and have nothing bad to say about them. I havn't been able to find places that sell them online though, amazing bags. If anyone knows a place to get a spare please let me know!

Side note: (I know its the wrong place to post it, but as long as I'm writing): I'm comfortable enough in my training to start rucking with a LG ALICE pack, when I get to SFAS will mods such as mixing and matching with MOLLE straps be tolerated? Or does it have to be ALICE through and through?

Appreciate the help.

ZonieDiver

04-09-2010, 11:51

Call me old-fashioned...

armymom1228

04-09-2010, 11:52

greenberetTFS

04-09-2010, 12:15

Call me old-fashioned...

Zonie,that just makes my day!..........;)

Big Teddy ;)

Surgicalcric

04-09-2010, 13:24

... when I get to SFAS will mods such as mixing and matching with MOLLE straps be tolerated? Or does it have to be ALICE through and through?

Appreciate the help.

When you get to SFAS you will be issued gear (MOLLE ruck and LBV included) from the bins at CIF.

Crip

Dozer523

04-09-2010, 13:28

Call me old-fashioned...

Awwwwwwww . . . She's Bee-you-tee-full!

I've been using the new IDF issue LAW bag. Internal frame, and can hold 120+ pnds with enough room for anything I could need and enough zippers to get at your things from multiple sides. . . . The hell with that! If I need 120+ pounds then I need a vehicle or we need to rethink the re-suppy plan. Maybe there's a good reason not to make everything as big as possible or to be able to load out every damn thing.
The solution doesn't alway have to be "More Stuff".

ZonieDiver

04-09-2010, 18:56

Awwwwwwww . . . She's Bee-you-tee-full!

The hell with that! If I need 120+ pounds then I need a vehicle or we need to rethink the re-suppy plan. Maybe there's a good reason not to make everything as big as possible or to be able to load out every damn thing.
The solution doesn't alway have to be "More Stuff".

Thanks, Teddy! I still "hump" with it! Dozer, I know "she" is beautiful! My point is/was that THAT is what Uncle Sam/Mother Army gives you - deal with it!I

It isn't about the greatest equipment, it is about doing the best you can with what you have. If you constantly hump the best ruck - but have to hump something of lesser quality - can you? Suck it up! Deal with it! SF needs people who are flexible and can adapt. If you have to have "thus and so" - it is my opinion that you are wasting everyone's time.

BlackHills

04-10-2010, 11:20

osprey 35 atmos (http://www.ospreypacks.com/Packs/AtmosSeriesMens/Atmos35/)

Anyone here familiar with it, or can offer me opinions.

I have tried one, the medium fits me perfectly. It has a camelback and ventilation. Both are important to me here in florida. I had never really thought about this whole thing a whole lot. But am doing a lot of walking lately and now find myself looking at doing the Fla Trail in the late fall. So I was up at Bill Jackson's looking at packs. Women's packs just are uncomfortable, this one seemed to fit my bill..but I wanted to ask the 'experts' here.
AM

I would hardly call myself an "expert" but Osprey packs are highly regarded in the backpacking world. Fit is very important and if that one works for you I don't think you can go wrong with it. I have an old Osprey that I'm very happy with.

The downside to that pack is that it's pretty small. If you're planning on doing more than a dayhike or maybe an overnight stay you'll probably wish you had something larger.

Koa18B

04-12-2010, 15:31

english kanigit

05-04-2010, 15:16

Ruck related question:

When an ALICE frame pops a rivet what's the best method of repair? A new rivet? Nut and bolt?

Ek

Surgicalcric

05-04-2010, 17:19

When an ALICE frame pops a rivet what's the best method of repair? A new rivet? Nut and bolt?

Ek

Nut, bolt, and 2 washers (one each side) and a lil lock-tite...

Crip

MtnGoat

05-04-2010, 20:14

Nut, bolt, and 2 washers (one each side) and a lil lock-tite...

Crip

a small locking nut

Surgicalcric

05-04-2010, 20:21

a small locking nut

Or a small locking nut...

Spotlight Ranger, lol.

Shock

05-08-2010, 14:25

I found a picture of the bag for all who were interested. I'm trying to find something similar for civilian use, mystery ranch has some options that look appealing/ similar. There are several features that I am looking for though, if someone thinks they can help please send me a PM and I will explain.

Thanks,
Shock

Aoresteen

05-12-2010, 12:54

Ruck related question:

When an ALICE frame pops a rivet what's the best method of repair? A new rivet? Nut and bolt?

Ek

A stainless steel nut & bolt.

Aoresteen

05-12-2010, 12:55

Combat Diver

05-24-2010, 01:02

I've humped the ALICE (large and medium), LOWE, CPF90, SPEARS and Blackhawk SOF. Never got issued the MOLLE. For winter warefare and mountains prefer the LOWE/SPF90 (resitched), Maritime Operations (F470, diving and surface swimming) hands down the ALICE. For sea kayaking prefer an internal frame but haven't found the right one yet. SPEARS just too heavy to start with. Got the Blackhawk SOF but didn't do much humping with it as it was usually mounted outside the DMV.

Average weight during my teams Desert Storm SR mission was 120-130 lbs with no resupply (plus 30+ lb LBE). One thrid of the weight was water and it all went inside/outside a large ALICE.

CD

Grand58742

06-08-2010, 10:29

I’m looking at getting a ruck for my day to day work in carrying my kit. I’m a cop, but have need to carry the following items day to day:

IBA (possibly with side SAPI and DAPS when deployed)
ACH
Gas mask (M50 type)
Foul weather gear (APECS top and bottom)
Cold weather gear (seasonal, but consists of the Level 3 fleece and typically other snivel tops and bottoms)
2 quart canteen
Practice chem suit (JLIST type) with boots and gloves (mainly for exercises)
Assorted other odds and ends (spare pouches, traffic vest, reflector belt, manuals, etc)

I currently use an B4 flight bag, but I would like something with straps so I can carry it on my back if the need arises. Also, this would serve a double purpose as a deployment pack if I ever have need to carry in my basic load as I did going from Kuwait to Iraq with enough clothing/kit to last me up to seven days. Main use would be day to day carry on the job, but I would like the option of being able to use it for more than just throwing into a car trunk.

I’ve used the CFP90, but it blew out and frankly I’ve seen more than my fair share of broken ones (typically the SDS ones) and don’t trust them. I have a SPEAR pack, but just about too complicated for a knuckle dragger like me and width wise it’s a stretch for cramming an IBA into. The ALICE is a possibility along with the MOLLE II, but was looking for something coyote brown or foliage, with personal preference on the ‘yote.

I was looking at a Kifaru pack based on the reviews here as well as other sites and was hoping Mel or anyone else in the know might be able to point me at the right pack for the job. Total load should be in the range of 50-70 pounds with carrying the bulky items listed above, but I wouldn’t mind the capability for more. I was looking at the Navigator with the Pods system. Pod for the chem suit and the main pack for everything else. I also like the fact the Navigator has the full length zippers so I wouldn’t have to drag everything out to get at something on the bottom.

Suggestions?

Koa18B

06-13-2010, 16:25

Grand58742

06-13-2010, 23:28

You could consider a "MALICE" from Tactical Tailor. I had one for about 1.5 years and it lasted and worked well. I did have one seem rip but it was to my own fault and they repaired it free, just had to pay for both shipping ways. They also give LE/Mil discount which is great.

Looked at the MALICE before...and somehow never happened to notice they made them in Coyote Brown. So much for my SA.

Kifaru is great I have had friends use them and love them and i do agree with the you get what you pay for, but to me IMHO they are not "the perfect ruck" by any means.

Do you need MOLLE attachement capabilities? are you going to need to expand you load to include more stuff in the futur?

Absolutely have to have, no. Would really like to have the option of being able to switch pouches/pockets to meet needs as they come along, absolutely. I don't have to have that option, but I would really like to have that option. So down to it, yes, I would like to have MOLLE capabilities. But overall quality is my objective. I know Tac Tailor builds good kit. I use quite a bit of their stuff at work and have been utterly happy so far. And from the reviews I've seen here and elsewhere, Kifaru is good kit as well, but I don't own anything by them.

Thanks for the advice.

alright4u

06-14-2010, 21:45

i liked the old mountain rucks, somewhat like the Brits' Bergen...it had a lot of the favorable attributes of the ALICE, in my opinion, the weight of the ruck was better distributed and the frame hardly ever bent or deformed...for awhile, i used the frame for an ALICE but some AH with nothing better to worry about than uniformity put the brakes on that endeavor...when i was in BT, we tried the Lowe's system, with detachable pockets, zip-on, zip off stuff, an internal frame, somewhat akin to the SPEARS in appearance....stuff dropped off when going through the woods, it was hard to rig for airborne operations and the zippers rarely worked in cold, icy weather...we gravitated back to the ALICE because, while it didn't hold enough stuff, it was reliable...yeah, i bent my share of frames over the years, but compared to having a pocket with your dry socks in it drop off in the Isar River, it was worth the trade off...

when i was a company commander in Alaska, Natick came up to do a study on soldiers' load...our average ruck, moving about in the Arctic, was around100 pounds...basically, a troop carried his MOPP stuff, two sleeping bags, ammo, socks, food, dry clothes, ponchos, etc...the ALICE packs were filled to the bursting point and they were looking for a solution...it seems, 16 years later, they are still looking...

I recall the Mountain, the Jungle, and; the Indig. That is all I recall. We carried the INDIG in our unit on combat OPS. Frankly, I would pay $30 + now for one PIR with shrimp, mushrooms , hot pepper flakes and plus the" fresh bamboo shoots" the yards cut from young bamboo when we were relatively safe. I cannot recall the PIR 's #'s and contents from 1-5, I seem to recall. I was no fan of the mutton PIR. I would trade a yard or any SF to take my PIR mutton.

$lug

07-12-2010, 07:28

First post... Thought this reply would ad some interesting eye candy on the various ALICE "types" out there now.

~$lug

http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/botach_2110_389786772
Blackhawk SOF:

http://www.bdstacticalgear.com/prod_images_small/Ruck_front21.jpg
BDS mountain ruck:

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e244/FLUG06/ALICE/LARGEALICE.jpg
LARGE ALICE PACK

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e244/FLUG06/ALICE/ALICEMEDIUM.jpg
MEDIUM ALICE PACK

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e244/FLUG06/ALICE/ALICERADIO.jpg
RADIO MEDIUM ALICE PACK

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e244/FLUG06/ALICE/TTVER12.jpg
TT MALICE PACK Version1-Version2

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e244/FLUG06/ALICE/TTVER3.jpg
TT MALICE PACK Version3

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e244/FLUG06/ALICE/HSGITRASH.jpg
HSGI T.R.A.S.H. BAG

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e244/FLUG06/ALICE/TAGMOUNTAIN.jpg
TAG GEAR MOUNTAIN RUCK

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e244/FLUG06/ALICE/NICETIMBERWOLD.jpg
MYSTERY RANCH TIMBERWOLF

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e244/FLUG06/ALICE/LBT10POCKET.jpg
LONDON BRIDGE TRADING 10 POCKET

The Reaper

07-12-2010, 07:34

First post... Thought this reply would ad some interesting eye candy on the various ALICE "types" out there now.

~$lug

Let me ask you, just a wild guess, but have you bothered to read the board stickies and rules yet?

TR

MasterOfMyFate

07-12-2010, 08:44

I see many people talk about improvements to the ALICE frame and pack because it seems to be 1) the standard or trust worthiness, and 2) simple and familiar to almost EVERYONE. I have seen where some folks have referenced to the Mystery Ranch "NICE frame", and most agree it is just too pricy to even bother giving a try. I came across THIS more simple, WAAAY more cheap improved ALICE frame, and wonder if anyone has any input on it, from either personal experience and/or second hand knowledge:

http://www.tacticalassaultgearstore.com/aliceframe.aspx

Blender

07-13-2010, 18:13

Has anyone attempted to attach a MOLLE ruck to a NICE frame yet? I just picked up a used NICE frame, but I left my ALICE at home. I can get a hold of a MOLLE, not sure if it will work though.

$lug

07-13-2010, 22:48

Reaper,

I did not read the opening guidelines and I do apologize for that. I have been a very long time lurker and had never thought to read them. (Bio updated, as well as first post left)

Blender,

The Molle pack will not work on a nice frame yet. However Mystery Ranch will soon be accepting packs for mods so that any will fit the nice frame. (Molle, ILBE, Etc.) I believe in the next few months.

Masterofmyfate,

TAG's frame is very nice but the ergonmics dont change at all. Im becoming a bigger fan of the down east frames.

Blender

07-15-2010, 09:39

So I can mail it to them and they mob it to work with the MOLLE? Wonder how much that will cost. I'll probably just have my roomie mail the ALICE.

Thanks for the in for though, $lug.

WolfPack-5

04-03-2013, 10:11

Old habits die hard... I use to own the old ALICE pack, regular size and mountain size, or large recon size... whatever you prefer to call it. Anyway I finally broke down and got the Marine Corps issue MOLLE, and I invested some money in the EBERLESTOCK SKY CRANE pack. I love both of them! They are both excellent packs and they can both take a beating! I got the EBERLESTOCK SKYCRANE with the Built in and detachable riffle scabbard (Why did I get it?) Because I use to be a U.S. Marine Corps Marksmanship Instructor, The Covering Force Commander for F.A.S.T. Company Marines, and a D.M. (Designated Marksman) I carry my M-4 plus my Modified Springfield Armory Carlos Hathcock Addition M-14 (Or M-24 by Springfield Armory) w/scope in the rifle Scabbard. The Eberlestock line of Packs has a good variety of packs for what ever the mission might be. I know this may sound like I am trying to sell you on this product I can assure you I am not. I have packed all my extra ammo for both of my weapon systems plus all my needed essential gear in both packs and they have performed outstanding. But I really love my Eberlestock Pack. This guy has come up with some great innovations for load bearing Packs or Rucks. I am getting Older too so I have come to appreciate comfort and good quality lol! Below is the link. Be your own judge. If you are on a budget then go on Ebay and purchase a U.S. Marine Corps MOLLE Pack. Either way you will not be disappointed. In both packs I have packed them with two sets of BDU's (A set of Civillian Clothes because you never know), Four pairs of socks with shells, Four sets of under garments, Rain gear, and one set of light cold weather under garments (Just incase) 6-MRE's, Extra Camel Bak Filled with water, 100 extra rounds of Ammo for each weapon system, and other miscellaneous survival type items, tent, and sleep system. When you pack out this much gear it pays off to be as comfortable has possible. Physical Conditioning is Paramount! I also have a packing mule and horse to carry me and all my gear. But once they take a shit it's Hump your own gear time...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZG0Vic8CS-Y&playnext=1&list=PL2D16A21C81212B97&feature=results_main

MAB32

08-17-2014, 18:52

Just curious to know if their are any updated recommendations since most of this subject was covered in 2005?:munchin

sefryak

08-18-2014, 16:48

For myself, I would go with Kifaru every time. They may cost more money and take a few weeks to reach you, but IMO, you can't find a better ruck out there. They have a wide variety of styles to meet your requirements, they have excellent pouches and other accessories and they use very good quality materials. They also have some top notch sleeping bags, woobies and other similar gear.

I've used their stuff for the last 4 deployments and can't recommend them more highly.