View Full Version : E10 & E11 ??
I understand the theory.. but I'm not getting the implementation..
If he means to flatten or separate the MSgt from 1st Sgt, and SGM from CSGM,, it might make sense??
Army Mulls Creating New Pay Grades for Senior NCOs
Military.com | 14 Jul 2017 | by Matthew Cox
The U.S. Army's top enlisted leader is trying to build momentum for an effort to create two new pay grades -- E-10 and E-11 -- to compensate senior noncommissioned officers as they take on more command responsibility.
Currently, enlisted pay grades stop at E-9, but command sergeants major typically advance from battalion level to higher command positions such as brigade-, division- and corps-level CSM without additional compensation.
Commissioned officers receive a pay increase each time they are promoted, all the way up to four-star general.
Sgt. Major of the Army Daniel Dailey discussed the effort at a recent conference in Texas but would not comment for this article.
"Unfortunately, at this point, there is nothing to announce," said Master Sergeant Tyrone C. Marshall Jr., the SMA's spokesman, responding to questions from Military.com. "The mention of possibly expanding anything was all simply pre-decisional discussion at the SMA's annual conference in El Paso, Texas."
http://www.military.com/daily-news/2017/07/14/army-mulls-creating-new-pay-grades-for-senior-ncos.html?ESRC=eb_170714.nl
I still think they should bring back technical sergeants into the Army and use them for, I don't know, technical things. Like for instance, their technical MOS jobs. YMMV/IMO
The separation of Officer to NCO is troubling. Pay depends on what they are doing IMO. Also goes back to the previous threads on competence and levels of training.
WarriorDiplomat
07-15-2017, 11:25
I understand the theory.. but I'm not getting the implementation..
If he means to flatten or separate the MSgt from 1st Sgt, and SGM from CSGM,, it might make sense??
That's just what we need more NCO rank so the political NCO's who are getting promoted throwing their units under the bus for career gain can shoot for even loftier goals.....More rank to dangle in from of power hungry NCO's will make the NCO corps even more defenseless against bad policies. It is bad enough these days with every f'n no longer on the team E8 and up already support the females in combat arms and every other NCO seeking promotion has adopted the same attitude in hopes of getting promoted the modern promotion over team climate needs no more B.S. the writer of the article neglects to mention the SDAP they get for compensation of being another appendage to a GO.
I still think they should bring back technical sergeants into the Army and use them for, I don't know, technical things. Like for instance, their technical MOS jobs.
You mean, like, Specialists?
Just say "NO"
I understand the concept but instead of more pay grades how about something like pro pay for Brigade or higher CSMs.
If they don't like the added responsibility they can always retire and make way for the younger studmuffins.
Just my opinion of course.
You mean, like, Specialists?
(DISCLAIMER, this is IMO/IME in MI and MI only, in my MOS and my MOS only.)
No. I am referring to far deeper problems. Just because someone is called a Specialist does not mean that they are. The same applies to Warrant Officers. We base someone as being a technical expert based on what?
The Army currently does not have a baseline to that test for MI jobs (Besides linguist) because there is not a test to prove it. A soldier can be completely forgotten of their MOS basic tasks for their entire career and still be promoted to a CSM. That is because their job is only a small factor of our promotion system for NCO's.
I frankly do not believe it is even a little bit of a priority to be good at your MI MOS to be promoted. Formula, again, (IME) in MI, appears to be, do none of your MI job, and do everything you can to avoid it, and you will be promoted. You will then be highly successful in the Army. Do the opposite...well good luck. Lots of good jobs out there.
My view is there should be NCOs that are technical experts at their jobs without any expectations of leadership roles or leadership schools. Pay grades E5-E9 as a SME in their MOS. A SME in their job should be just that. Especially with regionally aligned units. Especially in times of war. (I get the argument of the necessity of dynamics for leadership in predictability and probability of future calculation of a foreign analysis, determining adversary course of action, however that does not apply to all micro positions.)
Its hard to explain, but (IME) in MI you rarely, if ever do your job in your entire career under this system. The Army will spend hundreds of thousands on training for all kinds of schools for MI. Then never have them do any of it. I speculate that is because those that are getting promoted and making choices about assignments and TDA placement do not understand the MOS's jobs or missions, however the Army keeps rolling along.
The Army's focus to NCO promotion is mandatory leadership schools, Basic soldier leadership blocks (Squad leader, Platoon SGT..ext), PT, and a few sections on a NCOER. Eventually, for SFC, on the path to all others, the Soldiers information goes to a board that does not have to be made up of anyone whom understands the Soldiers MOS or career progression. In my situation, I have been told that a former MI CSM may be on the board, but no idea if they understand the specialized MI MOS or not. The board members review each file, then the board members tally numbers and decide whom is getting promoted based on needs, timing, and whom is decidedly the best within a given need percentage. (At certain levels, BN, BDE, maybe the makeup of the board is good. But maybe not at SFC or MSG.)
Under this system being really good at the basics of general Soldiering is what appears to set Soldiers apart for promotion. It has to be general information that is not too technical on NCOERs to get board notice. For example. Soldier was a PSG for two years of eighty Soldiers, equals to the board, "Great, make them a SFC." Vs. (Fictional) Soldier solved a complex mathematical cryptographic algorithm which allowed the USG to prevent a foreign government’s invasion of a bordering country…To the board members that equals… "well I do not know what that means, so pass on promotion. Why are they not being a PSG or a Drill SGT?!?!?!"
A recent big red flag is for example the Army computer hackers, 35Q. Huge money spent on those MI soldiers. (Hundreds in the Army and that is it.) The Army is DA selecting them for Drill, Recruiting ext just like everyone else for multi
year assignments. Not really sure that is the right answer when they MUST do their job to remain proficient and we are critically short in a very dangerous time of war and most importantly cyber war. I have seen the same mind set for many other highly specialized Army jobs which crawls its way to the higher ranks.
It just does not seem right to me. Much of it falls upon the Company level. But again, currently the politics fuels the leadership choices.
I suppose it’s possible to be a good politician and a technical expert. I fear that those like that, often get smoked out because of what it can do for those that are not, which have already risen higher. I believe that explains other training and retention problems.
I have met a few great CSM's, but many bad ones as addressed above in my career branch. It’s an automatic system in that you check the Political blocks, you get promoted. That is very political and not really performance, education, or a leadership related system that is bleeding dangerous second and third order effects down to the company level, which in turn makes us less effective in our mission in a time of war. Making it more political shows a total failure of the system. I believe it will damage the MI NCOs/Intelligence and the Army further if it is not first repaired before being deployed.
(Edit: There is a plot hole that I see here too...Do we want experts, leaders, or both? Is it possible to have both under the current system?)
blue02hd
07-15-2017, 21:05
Or maybe they could stop handing out promotions like attendance awards and focus on performance? Train to standard not to time right? Too many E-7's and above are less than adequate leaders due to the simple fact they were promoted too damn fast and never learned what it meant to follow. It's our own personal example of entitlement.
Just my .02.
(DISCLAIMER, this is IMO/IME in MI and MI only, in my MOS and my MOS only.)
No. I am referring to far deeper problems. Just because someone is called a Specialist does not mean that they are.
I'm not sure when your service was, but I was in a security platoon in a "Special Ammo" company that had SPC/7s and WOs who were, in fact, specialists in their field. ;)
Pat
This was kicked around years ago too....E10 for CSM's serving at 2 star and above and E11 for the SMA as I understood it.
I, personally, was hoping for 3 feathers on my Beret like a Scottish Clan Chieftain.....
Trapper John
07-16-2017, 07:40
That's just what we need more NCO rank so the political NCO's who are getting promoted throwing their units under the bus for career gain can shoot for even loftier goals.....More rank to dangle in from of power hungry NCO's will make the NCO corps even more defenseless against bad policies. It is bad enough these days with every f'n no longer on the team E8 and up already support the females in combat arms and every other NCO seeking promotion has adopted the same attitude in hopes of getting promoted the modern promotion over team climate needs no more B.S. the writer of the article neglects to mention the SDAP they get for compensation of being another appendage to a GO.
I had another Brother spending the last month with me and this subject along with the 4th BN and Jedburgh Teams came up. His thoughts mirrored yours and the the other Brothers that have posted here. Seems as though SF is getting politicized just like the rest of the Army. :(
As to the 4th BN and Jedburghs, he was a targeting specialist in A'stan and the Philippines. Said the Jedburghs were just another level of bureaucracy that was an obstacle to mission accomplishment. Definitely not a UW mindset. I just don't see how another level of management is going to improve effectiveness. Appears to be a typical solution for gubment - add more management, throw more money at the problem, form a study group, or blame someone else - that'll fix it!
But then again, if PRB could get 3 feathers in his beret who knows? :D
TrapperFrank
07-16-2017, 22:49
Just what the army needs, another level of underemployed senior NCOs making life miserable for the lower enlisted. For crying out loud, it is hard enough to get a SGM/CSM to retire as it is. Most hang around way too long, doing little to nothing, other than feeding their ego. They hop around from one CSM slot to another, spreading hate, discontent and turmoil in their wake. For example, the CSM of the brigade I supported in Afghanistan in 2004 is still in, and he is still a CSM.
Badger52
07-17-2017, 13:06
This sounds like an opportunity for some witty mouse-skilled person to re-make "the Bunker" video.
:rolleyes: