View Full Version : Becoming a doctor?
I read on here about the program they offer that allows some 18D's to go through and become a physicians assistant, but with the 18D training you receive in anatomy and physiology, how difficult do you think it would be to go through med school and become a doctor. Many of you guys talk about the skills not being able to cross over into the civilian world because they dont recognize the certifications. Wouldn't this be the best way to utilize your skillsets, and still do your job? Is there any feasibility in this option, or should one take another route, perhaps the PA program first to get a degree, and then apply directly to med school? Anyway, just a theory on how to transition to the civilian world. If this is completely off base, my apologies.
SeanM
The Reaper
12-07-2004, 20:20
I read on here about the program they offer that allows some 18D's to go through and become a physicians assistant, but with the 18D training you receive in anatomy and physiology, how difficult do you think it would be to go through med school and become a doctor. Many of you guys talk about the skills not being able to cross over into the civilian world because they dont recognize the certifications. Wouldn't this be the best way to utilize your skillsets, and still do your job? Is there any feasibility in this option, or should one take another route, perhaps the PA program first to get a degree, and then apply directly to med school? Anyway, just a theory on how to transition to the civilian world. If this is completely off base, my apologies.
SeanM
If you got the CLEP credit for the courses, you would be about 20% of the way there.
You are planning to use the SFMS Course, to springboard you to PA School, and thence to Med School? :rolleyes:
You guys are all eat up with your long term planning.
Do a time line of that (assuming you can get through Basic Training), with the service obligation paybacks for each school. :confused:
TR
LOL, I'm not that crazy, and thats a long timeframe for someone whos not even 18D qualified, however for someone who's out, its an option. Its not uncommon for there to be people in their late 30's/40's in medical school. Just a thought...
I have never yet found TR to be wrong in his advice. However, on one small point I would caution you--CLEP credits carry very little weight out in academia, in my experience. That's a polite way of saying, I CLEPped like a madman while in, and while Austin Peay State accepted them, the UC (and many more prestigious schools) do not.
Moral is, I would depend on Podunk Community College credits for civilian crossover before I would any test-out/e-course options. :(
Eagle5US
12-07-2004, 22:23
LOL, I'm not that crazy, and thats a long timeframe for someone whos not even 18D qualified, however for someone who's out, its an option. Its not uncommon for there to be people in their late 30's/40's in medical school. Just a thought...
I wonder where exactly you pulled THIS information from. :rolleyes: National acceptance rates for MD programs for folks over the age of 35 is about 15%, DO programs significantly more lenient at about 35%. Why would I know this? Because I just went through this particular train of thought about 2 years ago after going through the 18D program and the PA program-and being 36 years old.
Another tid-bit for you to ponder-as a PA with a Master's degree in Emergency Medicine (minor in Family Medicine) and 6 years experience in Trauma, Family Practice and Rural venues. If I were to go to medical school I start at year ONE along with every 19 year old pimple faced yahoo who could be my own son.
There are no longer any advance placement programs for PA's going to MED school in this country from reputable institutions. Med schools were getting gyped out of hundreds of thousands of dollars in the past by allowing advanced placement so they stopped it.
As far as springboards-do us all a favor and don't waste the training slot. Get your loan or grant and go to school on your own dime. 18D builds habits that must be broken for PA school. PA school builds habits that Docs don't like.
Make your choice-
Eagle
Sacamuelas
12-07-2004, 22:40
There is no CLEP testing for medical school or dental school courses that I have ever heard of- at least in the civilian world schools. This includes already taken major college undergraduate courses, junior college courses, nursing degree, or even an already obtained master's and PHD degree in whatever course you would have to take at the medical center.
At best, I would imagine you would be at an advantage in some of the basic science courses during the first two years of MD school. There is a big difference though in the level of detail and understanding that is required for medic/emt/18D's compared to medical school. It's simply a function of time available, as you are limited in the detail level of what you can spend time learning in a 2 yr 18D training course which has to cover ALL that an 18D must master in background knowledge and most importantly- application in the field. Compare that with the fact that medical school utilizes two full years on just the basic sciences with a second two years on clinical application. Then they do their residency for a couple of years to actually learn the all important- real world practical application of their profession.
You ought to rethink your plan if you want to go the MD route. IMO, there are better ways for the Army and better ways for you individually if that is your dream.
Good luck
That was just a hypothetical question that I was asking for those of you who were already out of the service. I, myself, have no intention really of doing such process, besides the fact that I am no where near a stage of even considering such path. I had just read the post about retired medical sargeants that couldn't translate what they learned in SF to the real world. However, I asked simply because I read that someone had done it in the past(not on this forum), and not seeing this career path posted up with the skillsets, simply posed the question of an option to follow such said path if it was at all possible/plausible. I see from the posts that it probably is not really feasible.
Eagle, that is some good advice, and like I said, it was just a question that no one really had asked up here that I saw at least. The Masters you got, was it through the PA program that I read about? I read that they do take a small percentage of 18D's into that program. Do you think the PA program is worth it for the civilian world?
By the way, I can't find the link now about the medical school acceptances, but I got it through a website that talked about what jobs translated from the army to civilian. They didn't post numbers, so I guess their site was a little subjective, and perhaps a little misleading. That was the misinformation I was going off of.
Anyway, like I said, this post wasn't intended for those using the program as a springboard to becoming a MD, it was just an idea to follow up with the skills learned as an 18D after finishing up. I guess what I said really isn't possible, based on time committments required to finish. Its unfortunate that schools won't advance you if you already have the knowledge.
Please do not take the initial post I made as someone who has their head up their ass with dreams of grandeur of becoming a MD. I just was curious if you guys had done this. My current focus is the 5m target, not even the 25m, and that is to concentrate what time I have left before I ship on PT, more PT, with some more PT, and when not doing PT, soaking up the knowledge here and sleeping, and the occasional eating. Anyway, I really do appreciate the responses. Hopefully, it helping answer some questions that people may have had about what to do when they are out of the service.
Thank you.
SeanM
Eagle5US
12-08-2004, 11:21
Well said...good explaination and reasoning. Thanks for clearing all of that up for us.
I went BACK to school after PA school for my Masters. Many PA programs (including the current military program or "IPAP") now generate a Masters degree within their core curriculum. I went through the IPAP before this was available.
The PA school transition is a mixed bag. But it will support my family and I once I retire, I am still doing PART of what I love (medicine) with the chance to work with the Family I love (Special Forces) if no longer as a shooter, then as a person keeping them healthy and alive.
As an 18D, you know everything there is to know, as a PA you realize how lucky you were not to kill anyone while you were an 18D - I did an Emergency Medicine preceptorship for my Masters, I realized how lucky I was not to have killed anyone yet. My trauma residency starts this summer, I am certain that I will be thankful in prayer that my former patients still walk this Earth.
Bottom line, in medicine you can never learn too much from too many sources or experiences. If it's your niche, you're happy with that prospect for the long term.
Eagle
Kyobanim
12-08-2004, 11:29
Just a little turn in the topic...
I've noticed more recently that there are more PAs than I realized. Maybe they've always been there and I just didn't notice. Is this something that has gained popularity as a medical career path recently or am I just blind?
Eagle5US
12-08-2004, 13:14
Just a little turn in the topic...
I've noticed more recently that there are more PAs than I realized. Maybe they've always been there and I just didn't notice. Is this something that has gained popularity as a medical career path recently or am I just blind?
The PA profession has initiated a boom in PA schools nationwide. 10 years ago it was touted as the number 1 growing profession in the United States with less than 20 acredited programs. Now there are over 100 programs nationwide pumping out PA's faster than most other collegiate programs.
With the current health care system, each physician can have as many as 6 PA's working under him. We (generally) are able to do about 80% of what physicians do. So if you were a hospital administrator, would you rather hire 7 docs at $200K a year each or 1 doc at $200K and 6 PA's at $80K-$100K. Much depends on the state and the area of practice of course, but this is the general formula. PA's also are obligated to charge LESS for the same re-imbursable service, so insurance companies are more willing to pay the employment group for our services rendered.
Something IMPORTANT to look for with PA's though...is the "C" at the end. i.e. Billybob Tentpeg "PA-C". This "C" means that they have passed a national certification exam and denotes "Certified". It is not a requirement (outside of the military) that folks pass or even take this exam. It is expensive, long, and difficult, but adds a great deal of credibility to the PA in practice and employment.
Eagle
Sacamuelas
12-08-2004, 13:21
Thanks for the info Eagle. I did not know about the "C" designation for national certification. I will add that to my "things to look for" toolbag when determining who can treat my family members.
Eagle, thanks for the very insightful and informative look into the PA profession. I myself had never even heard of a PA until a few months ago when I was trying to decide what I wanted to do with my life (originally was going to go in as a 91w). I had no idea that they were such a valuable addition to a hospital. (Note: this is not sarcasm, I really didn't know.) Anyway, its good too see that there is a good well paying civilian profession that an enlisted medic in the army can get into through a program the army offers. Makes me wonder how many times I was treated by the doctor or the PA...
Kyobanim
12-08-2004, 13:35
Thanks Eagle. That's an eye opener. Sounds like a good deal for overworked docs.
BMT (RIP)
12-08-2004, 13:54
Before the Army started the PA program WRAH sent a team to Bragg with a test for SF medics. They were eally surprised at the results and returned to DC to rewrite the test. WRAH had to rewrite the test three or four more times before they got the results they wanted. This was the start of the POI for the PA course.
The first PA class was 37 men,36SF medics and one LEG medic.
:munchin
BMT
The first PA class was 37 men,36SF medics and one LEG medic.
BMT
Why am I not in the least surprised by that statistic.
SeanM
Lads, I was a 91B2P when I went to SFTG. Since I had my time in San Antonio, I asked for weapons and got engineer/demo. In case you haven't noticed, 91BXSs have a very poor bedside manner. When I requested my file from St. Louis, I learned that I am a 91B3S and an expert with the M-16. Musta been the KD range in the rice paddies.
I went to med school at the tender age of 35 (nine years ago). Let me tell ya, it was one long fucking haul....averaged 28 credits per quarter. Had to compete with those young bucks that had zero real world experience at anything, and could memorize pages of textbooks. Those first two years were hell. Now, third year, when we began to deal with living patients instead of case studies and pathology specimens, got a lot more fun (the poindexters were scared to go up and ask the patients questions). Finished in four years but some of the old farts in my class took an extra year (or two). I was surprised that I got a lot of attention from medical schools, until you consider the front of my application was filled in (all the job/ achievement crap) whereas the 4.0 crowd had, well, a 4.0 to brag about and very lilttle else. At Minnesota we had a lot of "nontraditional" students, ie folks in 30's/40's embarking on second careers.
It is a definite commitment to become a physician. One med school asked me my backup plan in case I didn't get in. I answered honestly; "go to PA school." Less time for the trainup, almost as good pay and it all boils down to helping sick folks get better. I've worked with some great PA's so it's nothing to sneeze at.
Gotta agree with the other guys though; this is thinking a decade or two down the road for you....
Doc K
DoctorDoom
12-23-2004, 01:37
x
I had just read the post about retired medical sargeants that couldn't translate what they learned in SF to the real world.
SeanM
Can you show me that post?
Can you show me that post?
http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1483
I was referring to Eagle5's post about the pizza joint.
The Reaper
12-24-2004, 22:23
http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1483
I was referring to Eagle5's post about the pizza joint.
Now, what we got here, is a failure to communicate!
TR
http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1483
I was referring to Eagle5's post about the pizza joint.
Thanks for the link.
I would have to disagree with that assessment because to me it's a little short sighted. The 18D course past and present was not designed to be a stepping stone into a civilian job. The people that created the curriculum don't want men to go through two years of training, spend one year on a Team and go elsewhere, leaving a Team with no Medic. No Medic means that the Team is non-deployable.
The EMT-P certification was approved to give 18D's the certification necessary to allow us to work in non-military Hospitals BTW. It was not set up strictly to provide an 18D with a job later on.
There are jobs in the medical field out there, and an 18D would make a great candidate for a lot of them, but you'll have to go through some form of training to get one for a variety of reasons. I was told that even with the NREMT-P certification, some states may still want you to get state certified, do a train up, etc. Kinda the same situation in reverse with some 18D students wanting to challenge the 18D course based on past qualifications.
Would a FP Physician tired of his job make a good 18D? On the FP side, he would be the go to guy for questions, but he might not be able to land navigate. If he can't find a point and get to an area on time, what' the point in having him? That's just one example and there are thousands more on both sides of this discussion.
I heard that there is talk in the Medical Head Shed at Bragg to get the 18D students through some type of PA certification within the existing course curriculum. They would not get nationally certified as a PA until right before they retired. Theoretically they would then enter the civilian world ready to go. I don't know the accuracy of that rumor and would not bet the house on it. I think it would be a long term solution to an age old problem we have in the community with keeping the best and the brightest. Some old school and new school heads will collide if this idea matures into fruition I'm sure.
The 18D training helped me and wally, no doubt about it, but we still had to go through some form of training to get our current jobs. We're both doing OK thank the good Lord.
Follow your heart. Don't do something you're not ready to go all the way with. The guys on the Team's deserve 100% of you and more.
Good luck.