View Full Version : Old West Rifle for Wyoming Elk
Gents,
My future father-in-law is planning an Elk hunt to Wyoming and has tasked me with finding him a new rifle.
His specifications:
Old West style (preferably original)
Black Powder
Scope not necessary
He is very interested in Sharps. I have also suggested 1885 high wall or Springfield trapdoor.
My problem is caliber. In my research I have been looking at .45-70 Government because I can readily find Black Powder Cartridges loaded (Neither he or I reload).
My questions are for you who have had similar trips:
Would these rifle/caliber match ups serve him well for elk?
Are less than 200 yard shots realistic in Wyoming?
Is there a better rifle/caliber that fits these specs?
I understand he could probably be better served if he or I reloaded but for now lets take that as not an option.
Any help is much appreciated as I am out of my depth in black powder/hunting rifles.
Finding a rifle/cartage combo that is in current production will be the problem.
BUT There is the Winchester 1895 as used by Teddy Roosevelt. It has been made of late by both Winchester and Browning. The rifle was made in 30.06, 7.62x54R (Russian) and .405 Winchester. Additionally the Savage 1895/99 could be a candidate.
These are late BP early smokeless power rifles that will do the deed.. All capable of 200 yd elk shots.
Good Luck.. :munchin
TOMAHAWK9521
10-31-2011, 10:52
The 45-70 would be an ideal cartridge for your purposes. As for which Old West rifle to use, check out Uberti and Navy Arms. Uberti makes some damn fine reproduction pieces. Look at their 1876 Winchester Centennial model. It comes in a 45-75 and there are factory loads available for it.
Navy Arms has some nice Sharps rifles in 45-70 as well.
As for the ranges you are talking about, 200 yards for an elk would be ideal but I can't guarantee it. I have never hunted elk in Wyoming but I can't imagine it being any different than Colorado.
I hope this helps.
Patrick
FNG13,
I have been shooting Sharps replica's and original and replica Remingtons sonce 1989. Mostly with BP and lead. IMHO the best route for him is the 45-70 becasue you can buy both smokeless and BP ammo and if he ever desires to sell the rifle a 45-70 is much easier to sell that say a 45-110. Since he is looking for a hunting rifle I would recommend he stay with a standard weight barrel and no go looking for a 15lb buffal0 gun. If that is what he truely wants I do have a nice 15lb 50-90 for sale...LOL.
You can get good scopes and poor scopes, the good ones come from RHO and MVA. The RHO is tru to the original Malcolm while the MVA is not. The leatherwood is one of the mediocre/poor ones.
If he wants an original rifle and is not prepared to spend a year's retirement a used military Remington rolling block is a good way to go. They are available in both 45-70 and 50-70. The 45-70 command the higher prices. I prefer the 50-70 Remington military rifle which by the way was used by Buffalo Bill when he was hunting for the Army.
What is the budget?
Sites to look at:
Ammo, Buffalo Arms
Rifles, C. Sharps and Lone Star. I have rifles from both and am very pleased. Lone Star will also take an old beat up military rifle and turn it into a beautiful sporting ridle true to Remington's production in the 1870's.
I would recommend you stay away from the italian guns. There are some problems with their interpretation and customer service is virtually nil, atleast from Pedersoli. The blogs on the BP/Cowboys sites alwasy contain discussions on problems with those guns. I also experinced problems (soft steel/peening) on a couple of Navy Arms (Uberti's IIRC) rollers. The Pedersoli Sharps often lack the ejection capability becasue Uberti used percussion levers instead of the cartridge levers on their guns, minor item but it can make loading one a three-handed operation.
MVP
craigepo
10-31-2011, 11:08
I just got back from an elk hunting trip. My experience is that you need to hit elk with a large, fast round, as close to a 105mm howitzer as you can get. 7mm mags, .300 win mags, and .338s are a few of the go-to calibers today.
You also need a very good bullet. I hit an elk a couple years ago straight in the chest, 25 yards, with a 150 grain Sierra GameKing. Put a hole through the lungs the size of a Skoal can. That bull went down, then got up and ran. I shot him next high in the withers. He went down again. I heard him doing the "death rattle" breathing. 20 seconds later, he jumped up and ran again. 3rd shot was quartering away, through both lungs.
Personally, I wouldn't go elk hunting with a caliber unless I could find bullets for the gun like Nosler Accubonds or Barnes Triple Shock. If you hit a bull with a solid lead round or any junk round, that bullet is going to go to crap as soon as you hit a big bone, not hit anything vital, and you are going to end up losing a bull. Stated differently, shooting an elk is a whole different ball game than shooting a deer-sized animal. The bastards just suck up lead, then run like hell into the nastiest mountain terrain you can imagine. Then, if you can find them, you get to quarter them and pack them out.
AS MVP stated.
Reloading for black powder is not difficult and really cost effective. There are lots of choices, as it has been mentioned in rifles and calibers. If you are using one rifle in a caliber, reloading gets real simple in BP.
They have the range, only that the trajectory is more a rainbow like than modern powder loads.
Also on 45-70 there are three groups with different loads. First group is for the trap doors and old model 45-70. Second group is for the new Marlin lever actions and third group is only for the Ruger No 1 in 45-70. I think commercial loads only come in 45-70 government (group I loads).
Just trade off my Shiloh Sharps in 45-100.
A word of caution, black powder can get very addicting.
Buffalobob
10-31-2011, 11:16
Killing an elk is a difficult business in the first place. Limiting yourself to an obsolete weapon with which you have no experience is increasing the difficulty. The standard 45-70 will undoubtedly kill an elk if the shot is well placed. Placing a shot well at 200 yards with iron sights is a skill to be developed.
Ready made ammo can be purchased all the way up to 45-120. Whether any normal human being can shoot such a load in a carry rifle is another question and is beyond my knowledge.
http://www.buffaloarms.com/.42_.45_caliber_black_powder_ammunition_pr-4443.aspx
http://www.tenxammo.com/tenx_ammo_B.html
The problem is that a rifle may not shoot well with a particular brand of ammo and when you only have a few choices it is really hit or miss.
Shiloh Sharps makes some beautiful rifles.
http://www.shilohrifle.com/model1874.html
Unless you cast your own bullets loading BP is not cheap, quality bullets can be ordered ranging from $30 to $50 for 50. Powder goes quick too with the large charges, 1 lb (7000gr) can only provides 70, 100gr charges...
I recommend C. Sharps over Shiloh for two reasons: barrel quality and delivery time. ;) Otherwise I do not see any difference between the two companies if comparing apples to apples...
MVP
Another possibility is a lever gun in 45-70, Original Winchesters are out there but are pretty pricey. Marlin model 1881's are also available at lower prices but still not cheap. Both Browning and Winchester have reproduced the Winchester 1886 but the Win has a tang safety, sort of a tit on a boar hog. Turnbull does a beautiful 1886 at about $2700.00 The modern Marlin is ok but a bit light and the newer (since 1980's) has a tit (additional buttom safety) as well...
MVP
MVP, one reason I got into casting my bullets when I first for into BP. The cost savings was excellent. A lead pot, a dipper and Lyman mold + I already had a heat source. Lead at the time was readily available at tire stores (close to Lyman No 2) and pure lead was not expensive.
The other factor with a single shot, 70 rounds is a lot of shooting. My first BP was a pistol and then a Zouave .58 cal Musket. Eventually I got into paper cartridges, then combustible cartridges and metallic cartridges. I have competed in SASS with cap locks. It is fun and adds a dimension to understanding history.
My oldest shooter is a 1818 Springfield. It went through a Belgium conversion around '42 and then rifled for the Civil War. For my older stuff that originally used BP, I prefer BP over smokeless.
C-sharps are very nice, I had a one. What I need is to find another long range locally to shoot at. We had a 1600 M range, the farmer leased it out and we lost use of it. Sure appreciated the use.
mark46th
10-31-2011, 14:34
MVP mentioned the Marlin lever action. The Marlin Guide model comes in .45-70, in stainless steel. Not sure how authentic your ffil wants to be but if he opts for something more modern, this isn't a bad choice.
Hollis, I too prefer BP.
I am anxiously awaiting the arrival of a Remington Creedmore built around 1873-75. It is a "B" grade which is actually the lowest priced version and is also one of the least common. It was "restored" about 5 years ago. I use the quotation marks because it was not rebarreled in the original caliber (44-90) but is now a 45-90.
MVP
Buffalobob
10-31-2011, 15:57
I will leave the thread to Hollis and MVP who actually know something about this type of rifle. I only know something about hunting elk and am not even all that good at that.
The Reaper
10-31-2011, 16:39
I have a Marlin Guide Gun in .45-70.
With hot loads (commercially available), it will reliably kill anything that walks the earth, if the shooter does his part.
The historically correct counterpart would be the Marlin 1895. If you are relying on iron sights to hit an elk at 200 yards, the longer sight radius of the rifle over the carbine would be a plus.
Using actual black powder and buying loads/loading for a Trapdoor or the like will drop the power to about half. The Sharps should be good to go with the warmer loads.
The trajectory of a .45-70 reminds me of a 40mm grenade or a .45 ACP, especially in the super light Trapdoor loads, but it is accurate and the trick can be done if the shooter is able, the ranging/holdover is correct, and the conditions are right.
I do not like the idea of wounding animals and losing them, so unless he can reliably hit a paper plate at whatever range he intends to shoot at, he would be better off going to a modern weapon, stalking closer, or adding optics till he can.
Best of luck.
TR
mark46th
10-31-2011, 17:08
Buff- You are much too humble...
Gentlemen,
Thank you for all of your help so far. I am still trying to take this all in.
A few points to address concerns that have been brought up this far.
The 200 yard range limit was my own addition to his specifications. as a starting point as I am unsure of what type of ranges he would be looking at. I imagined across valleys etc, but I wasn't sure. I think that would be the outer limits of where he would think about taking a shot with open sights.
I think based on the suggestions here and as I don't know his budget I am going to search for and present him with several options.
He always mentions the Sharps so that is probably his preference but the lever actions also seem like good choices. He wants something original but the idea of him dragging a historic gun through the brush makes me cringe. I would rather present him with both new and old, he can leave the old hanging above the fire place.
Based on the consensus I think I will try and find something in .45-70 as it seems to be readily available in terms of rifles and ammunition.
Thanks again for the help, I am sure I'll be back with more questions.
mojaveman
10-31-2011, 17:24
Traditional?
How about a Winchester 1876 Centennial in .45-60?
Gentlemen,
Thank you for all of your help so far. I am still trying to take this all in.
A few points to address concerns that have been brought up this far.
The 200 yard range limit was my own addition to his specifications. as a starting point as I am unsure of what type of ranges he would be looking at. I imagined across valleys etc, but I wasn't sure. I think that would be the outer limits of where he would think about taking a shot with open sights.
I think based on the suggestions here and as I don't know his budget I am going to search for and present him with several options.
He always mentions the Sharps so that is probably his preference but the lever actions also seem like good choices. He wants something original but the idea of him dragging a historic gun through the brush makes me cringe. I would rather present him with both new and old, he can leave the old hanging above the fire place.
Based on the consensus I think I will try and find something in .45-70 as it seems to be readily available in terms of rifles and ammunition.
Thanks again for the help, I am sure I'll be back with more questions.
A original Sharps is very expensive, C-sharp or a Shiloh can be had in the $2000 - 3000 range depending on sights (that can be over $600) and furniture.
Other issue is range, very few people can hunt at long range, the longer the range the fewer there are out there. As Reaper pointed our and I think most hunters agree, you want a killing shot, not a wounding shot.
I have two Marlin guide guns, I would use just the iron sights and try to not take a shot over 150 yards, preferably 75 yards. I, also, use Group II loads. The last elk I shot was at 75 yards. Where I live the chances of a long share is rare but possible. We had a bowl where max range was slightly over 800 M. Depending on where I was going, I would either carry my Marlin guide or my Win Mod 70 .338 WM. The Mod 70 were GTG at hitting milk jugs at 600M. I would only take a long shot if I was in that bowl and conditions were 100% favorable. I don't mind passing up a shot, if it is questionable. In Eastern Oregon, shooting a critter is one thing, retrieving it another.
I am a little worse for wear, so I have a quad and trailer set up for hunting. The trailer will haul the quad, the quad can pull the trailer and then I can mount the trailer on front of the quad, tilt the bed and use the wench to pull the gutted elk on it. All without working up a sweat.
The Reaper offers very excellent advice. If he can not consistently hit a paper plate the size of the kill zone of a elk and at the range he will be shooting at, with what ever he chooses, he should not use that firearm. Wait till he has more skill.
Wyoming offers some very open country. Long shots are possible with Creedmore sights, but it takes years of practice to make those shots.
Also to get started, what about deer?
Recommend min. retained muzzle energy to take down a elk is about 2000 ft pounds. A .338 WM has that at 600 M. You can use a ballistic calculator to determine what the energy will be for what he chooses to use.
The elk we have in Oregon, is a very tasty elk.
Hollis,
Thanks again for all the help.
I think though there might be some confusion coming out of my end. My FFIL is not new to shooting or hunting, rather he has tasked me to find him an "old gun" that fits his broad specs.
He has been hunting and shooting his whole life, and would not take a shot at an animal unless he was sure he could hit it.
He also isn't new to BP, he hunts with an old flash pan muzzle loader every year.
He may very well be open to using a scope but I would have to present it to him as such. He said a scope wasn't necessary but I don't think he is dead set against it.
He's a hard one to gauge, a rough and tough SOB that isn't so big on words.
He wants a sharps or similar period but I am not sure he is set on having to take that for elk, he wants something old west or just old. As he is hunting with his brother and his sons who are all into "new guns and $1000 scopes."
He is very much into doing things the "old hard way"
Again thanks for helping me figure something out. If you think its hard to judge what his specs are, you should try being his son in law.
mark46th
11-01-2011, 09:24
I have a Browning 1885 Highwall (modern manufacture) in .22-250. I use it as my varmint rifle. I love it. The action is very smooth, the fit and finish is beautiful. Aesthetically, it is my favorite rifle, a classic piece. You can buy tang mounted vernier sights for it if your ffil wants to go that route...
FNG,
Since you keep saying Sharps I'm hearing you (he) wants a Sharps. I would really recommend a C. Sharps 1874 in the Bridgeport variation. The bridgeport has a shotgun buttplate that makes shooting more pleasant. Go with the 30 inch #1 heavy barrel and the buckhorn/blade sights. IME using the tang sight and globe front does not work out in the field. Very few buffalo hunters used them or scopes but it did happen. The tang sights are easily knocked out of adjustment contrarry to the Quigley movie.
I would also recommend ordering the small forend, just look more authentic to the original guns. You can combine features of both version to create a custom gun if you desire. May want to buy Frank Sellers book on the Sharps. Talk nice to John Schoffstall (owner of C. Sharps), explain what you are doing and he can probably get you a gun within 2 months. Again, the overall quality is just as good as Shilohs but with a better barrel.
Buffalo arms sells 45-70 loaded with 405gr lead bullets over BP for a reasonable price, you don't need 500gr bullets for 200yds.
If you ever decide to load your own I strongly recommend buying the SPG Primer for loading BP. I struggled for 7-8 years and could not get my gun to group loading in the same manner as with nitro. The rudiments are the same but significantly different...
FWIW: There was a Marlin model 1881 in 45-70 on gunbroker recently that looked pretty good for its age. The gun had some documentation with it indicating it was used by a guy involved with chasing Geronimo. Believe the price was $2k. May still be for sale.
MVP
Bill Harsey
11-02-2011, 11:52
Here is what we use for elk in Oregon.
It goes on the end of a long stick.
mark46th
11-02-2011, 13:32
Ahhh- A double barreled Clovis Point....
Here is what we use for elk in Oregon.
It goes on the end of a long stick.
What caliber is that?:D:p
FNG,
Send the FFIL to Oregon, he won't need to worry about trajectory or a scope.
MVP
Just a quick update.
Sorry this has taken so long but now he is just my FIL, which is why I haven't been on in a while.
I turned over to him several of the recommendations made here including the C.Sharps, Marlin, Remington etc. showed him examples of each as well as where they could be found.
I left it up to him to choose which he thought best suited his perceived requirements.
Thanks again for all of the help and I will update again with his final decisions and hopefully some pictures.
Fng