View Full Version : M4 SOPMOD Reflex Sight
Basenshukai
01-27-2004, 12:12
We just love the Reflex Sight. Except, of course, when the sun is in your direction of fire and eliminates the dot. Then, all you have is a clear lens before you. The fix, of course, is just to flip up the rear sight (we have those flip-up types) and engage the target with iron sights.
Well, our 18F had a nice little device that fixed this problem for him. He had himself an EO Tech holographic sight. More than just a dot, his "heads-up-display" had a circle with cross hairs around it and a dot in the center. Even with the strong sunlight, we had little trouble looking through his.
Recently, it seems that some measure of funds have funnelled down to the battalion. However, due to some sort of policy at USASOC level - I'm not very familiar with it - we are not allowed to purchase any other sights (since we have SOPMOD).
What are your experiences with the Reflex Sight and what did you do to fix it? BTW, iron sights don't go away with the sunlight. :)
PS - Thanks to the "Knuckledragger Forum" I am now able to post pictures (paid endorsement)
Basenshukai
01-27-2004, 12:19
I wanted to add that we did change all the batteries to new ones just in case they were weak and we still had the problem.
The Reaper
01-27-2004, 12:32
B:
The reflex just flat sucks, IMHO. Consider that you are banging away clearing a building, and you see a guy through a window 200 m. away or so setting up a rocket launcher. Can you effectively engage them quickly and accurately? Spend some time transitioning from outside to inside, lit room to dark room, light targets to dark targets. Can you acquire them under any and all conditions? Murphy is out there. You are in East BF Egypt and your batteries crap out. What do you do?
I have a Comp ML2, a defective TX30, a TA31 and a couple of TA11s I am more than happy to loan you if you want to compare.
They are my personal property though, so I would have to ask you not to shoot, burn, blow up, or keep them.
Just let me know.
TR
Basenshukai
01-27-2004, 13:51
Originally posted by The Reaper
B:
The reflex just flat sucks, IMHO. Consider that you are banging away clearing a building, and you see a guy through a window 200 m. away or so setting up a rocket launcher. Can you effectively engage them quickly and accurately? Spend some time transitioning from outside to inside, lit room to dark room, light targets to dark targets. Can you acquire them under any and all conditions? Murphy is out there. You are in East BF Egypt and your batteries crap out. What do you do?
I have a Comp ML2, a defective TX30, a TA31 and a couple of TA11s I am more than happy to loan you if you want to compare.
They are my personal property though, so I would have to ask you not to shoot, burn, blow up, or keep them.
Just let me know.
TR
The issue regarding reflex sight versatility seems to stem from the "point-of-aim","point-of-impact" problem. When zeroing the sight at 25m, it seems best to set up the sight to punch holes about 3 cm lower than the center mass of the target. This way, a target can be engaged at 100 m with more efficacy. I would imagine that Reflex Sight use will be best applied at close quarters, or anything less than 100 m. But, of course, we can't dictate when and where the target will appear. I'm real close to buying a EO Tech, unless what you got might be more economical. If it is, let's give it a shot (no pun intended).
If you need to transition from a close shot to a long shot. The rear sight is already up.
Secondly; You are going to laugh at this! Watch how many guys forget to turn those things ON!:eek: Much less, turn them OFF!
You have to TRAIN with the optics...TRAIN! I still saw guys who were not familiar with the optics, install them because it looked cool. Close one-eye when engaging targets at close range...WTF?
The Reaper
01-27-2004, 14:50
The only one LESS expensive than the EO Tech that I would consider is the Aimpoint M2. and the flip up or cut down rear mounted at all times.
If I were going in harm's way with the requirement to engage a number of targets from PBR to 300m., I would get a TA31 and a set of flip up irons, and burn a couple thousand rounds at varying ranges with it. No batteries required, BTW.
You have to decide what your life is worth for yourself, and what works best for you. As with everything else, opinions vary and what works for me may not work for you.
Good luck and be safe.
TR
Basenshukai
01-27-2004, 16:18
Originally posted by Guy
If you need to transition from a close shot to a long shot. The rear sight is already up.
Secondly; You are going to laugh at this! Watch how many guys forget to turn those things ON!:eek: Much less, turn them OFF!
You have to TRAIN with the optics...TRAIN! I still saw guys who were not familiar with the optics, install them because it looked cool. Close one-eye when engaging targets at close range...WTF?
You're exactly right. In our team room, if the 18B catches one of us turning our weapons in with the Reflex Sight "on" ... it's a case of beer.
longrange1947
01-28-2004, 07:57
In my opinion, I would junk the dam thing. Too many other options, and the thing is just too fragile.
Psywar1-0
01-29-2004, 00:20
When you say reflex do you mean the Trijicon reflex? Thats just old outdated tech. The aimpoint and the Eotech are much better. I run an Aimpoint on my personal gun and a Eotech AA model on my work gun. With SOPMOD II being held up by leagle senanigans by the sore losers the real losers are the folks that cant get the gear they need.
I've seen them in use and people swear by them.
http://www.eotech-inc.com/images/obstruct.gif
The Magic of Holography
In holography, all the information required to reconstruct the reticle image is recorded everywhere in the Heads-Up display window. If the window is obstructed by mud, snow, rain, etc., the HWS remains fully operational , with point of aim/impact being maintained. Even in such extreme cases where the laminated window is shattered, the HWS is fully functional! As long as the operator can see through any portion of the window, the entire reticle pattern is visible on target...the operator can still engage with confidence.
Durability:
The HWS has been designed and tested to provide consistent, reliable performance even in the most hostile operational environments. It is waterproof, fogproof, shockproof, and temperature proof.
The HWS is designed to withstand Mil-Spec drop tests and still remain fully operational and hold zero. The HWS has been extensively tested in a punishing recoil simulator generating 3,500 G's of acceleration in less than 0.5 milliseconds (the recoil of a .454 Casull revolver) as well as various environmental chambers).
The Heads Up Display is constructed with a 3 layer, shatterproof laminate glass that is 3/16" thick for added durability. Additional protection of the Heads Up Display is provided with a "roll bar" ruggedized hood
http://www.eotech-inc.com/images/durability.gif
longrange1947
01-29-2004, 18:19
The Eotech is not in the SOPMOD and is being held up by whatever. The present reflex is junk and needs to be replaced. My understanding is that it is gong to happen. Who, what, and when I do not know.
I understood the question to be the SOPMOD reflex and answered accordingly.
The Reaper
01-29-2004, 18:25
Originally posted by longrange1947
The Eotech is not in the SOPMOD and is being held up by whatever. The present reflex is junk and needs to be replaced. My understanding is that it is gong to happen. Who, what, and when I do not know.
I understood the question to be the SOPMOD reflex and answered accordingly.
Concur that the Trijicon Reflex (TX-11?) needs to be junked.
There seem to be a lot of needy projects being held up, for some reason.
I have also seen some EO Techs busted, I understand that they are now improved and the military versions are even more ruggedized.
TR
Basenshukai
01-29-2004, 19:08
Spoke to the SFAUCC instructors and they told me that the EO Techs ARE authorized for purchase. However, BN S-4 is telling me that they are not. They say is a policy several levels above. Where the miscommunication is occuring, I don't know. But, SFAUCC did purchase over 12 of them locally. Furthermore, they used the usual and proper channels to aquire them. I'm trying to make this same purchase happen for my guys. If anyone has a better understanding of the system behind this, please PM me. I won't quote you or anything. I'm just trying to get the gear to the guys that feel they need it, thus, I'm trying to better understand how I can make this happen.
longrange1947
01-29-2004, 21:04
Make sure of the model that you get is the military model. That it has two zero settings, near (25 meters) and far (500 meters). There is a new one in the works that will accept an NVD (14 I think) for limited light use.
Some of the restrictions are self inflicted on the Operators' level. They go out and buy non standard that is not compatable with the team next door. This causes the 5 year contract lapse in which we pay top dollar for 5 year old technology.
Wat is the solution, stop buying the latest doodad that is the flavor of the month and work within compatablilty standards. I love the guys that just have to have the latest, only to find out that it does not do what they thought it would do or does not work under the environment that they must work.
Shutting up now. :D
Psywar1-0
01-30-2004, 17:34
Here is the skinny as far as I know it. The Eotech is not part of the Sopmod at present and thus cant be ordered from Crane like the Aimpoint M68, But you should be able to Local Purchase them. IMNSHO you need the Model 552 version A65 This is the version that uses AA batteries, has NVG settings and is the Crosshair and red dot model. Version D1 is just the Red dot.
There have been some reported Reticle Burn problems using the 552 with a PVS 14 mounted behind it on the weapon. If you keep your NVGs head mounted it will not be a problem
Originally posted by Basenshukai
What are your experiences with the Reflex Sight and what did you do to fix it?
Are you using the polarized filter or the 'kill flash'?
Other than getting rid of the sight (as suggested by others) and replacing it…
You could add the filter & make the reticule seem brighter since you are making the sight picture darker.
It helps you pick up the dot in bright light but them makes the sight picture really dark if you get sudden clouds, step into some shade, into a building, etc.
catch 22
Basenshukai
02-10-2004, 07:16
I'll research the filter idea. I had not considered that before. Thank you.
Not to critize...
But coming from the days when we thought having M-16A2s was 'high speed' and the standard optic was the Mk. I eyeball...
I have a Trijicon Reflex sight on my rifle and find it more than useable under all conditions - when the alternative is iron sights and the 1954 model (modified 1996) of the MK. I eyeball, hazel, 2 ea.
Using an 'A2' reciever (i.e. carrying handle), it co-witnesses my iron sights.
Mine is the battery-less model.
Superior training and marksmanship is the deciding factor (IMHO) over Hajis using AKs, crappy AK iron sights, and 'spray and pray' as their TTP.
The old 'quick kill', using iron sights on an M-16, will produce an outstanding reactive shooter.
Of course, a better sight helps. But the man is the weapon; the rifle and sight only the tool.
Basenshukai
02-10-2004, 20:50
Originally posted by ODA 564
Not to critize...
But coming from the days when we thought having M-16A2s was 'high speed' and the standard optic was the Mk. I eyeball...
I have a Trijicon Reflex sight on my rifle and find it more than useable under all conditions - when the alternative is iron sights and the 1954 model (modified 1996) of the MK. I eyeball, hazel, 2 ea.
Using an 'A2' reciever (i.e. carrying handle), it co-witnesses my iron sights.
Mine is the battery-less model.
Superior training and marksmanship is the deciding factor (IMHO) over Hajis using AKs, crappy AK iron sights, and 'spray and pray' as their TTP.
The old 'quick kill', using iron sights on an M-16, will produce an outstanding reactive shooter.
Of course, a better sight helps. But the man is the weapon; the rifle and sight only the tool.
There is no way I can disagree with your post. I will add some proper context to my query. At the time of the original post, we were in the middle of Advanced Marksmanship Training. While we trained extensively with the flip-up iron sights, we saw the tremendous value that could be found in a reflex sight in a very low light environment with short distance engagements. It allows for both eyes to be open as well which enhances situational awareness. I believe SF to be one of the few organizations in the Army that marries tough and realistic advanced marksmanship with the available technology to produce a shooter that can operate with, or without the benefit of optics.
... but, we still want those EOTECHS:D
NousDefionsDoc
02-11-2004, 10:14
I was fortunate enough to be in training when we first started getting some new technology. Technology that now is probably considered archaic and laughed at. I hated it - it never seemed to work or went down just at the critical moment. Admittedly, from what I understand, the devices are much more reliable and advanced now than then. Also, even though I've never seen it happen, I suppose even iron sights can be rendered unserviceable (I'm sure there's an E or C out there somewhere that has done it). I also think you should use everything available to gain an advantage.
The dilemma to me is "How do you train on the advanced technology without it becoming a crutch?" I don't think training a percentage on one or the other is going to provide the answer. I have seen people become reliant on devices in literally a matter of minutes and pick up bad habits.
Just another one of those "little" reasons TS and TLs get paid the big bucks I guess.
At least one advantage of the new technology is it appears to be much more expensive. Since my Teammates and I were famous for zinging, the increased cost will probably all but eliminate that.
Psywar1-0
02-11-2004, 12:18
I just had an additional duty dropped in my lap. Colombian Army Search and Rescue company is trying to get M4A1s with full SOPMOD kit, except they want the Reflex. Im trying to convince them that they need to go with the Eotech AA model. Thats totally based on my own exp with the Reflex, and the inability to find batteries for the Aimpoint even in Bogota.
Anyone have an AAR in Spanish on the Trij Reflex? At this point im about ready to pull some AAR's off of Arfcom and translate them.
Thanks,
Luke
PS Forgot to add that the briefing to the MOD is manana. :eek:
NousDefionsDoc
02-11-2004, 12:38
We can help with the translations if they're not too long.
I have read the posts on this thread and I would like to add some comments regarding my experience with the M68 CCO (close combat optic). AKA Aimpoint.
I am not an 18 series soldier, ( I wanna be though) but I am a light infantry squad leader in the Oregon Army National Guard. We have had some unique opportunities to use the CCO here. I read some of the earlier comments on the difficulty using the CCO in bright sunlight. We too discovered this. Our solution was to close the front cover and look at the target with both eyes open .
The red dot light is very bright when you do this and you have no problem seeing the dot on the target. YOU MUST zero the CCO the same way. With the front cover closed. Since there is no magnification on the CCO it really does'nt matter if the front cover is open or not.
We mount the CCO's just forward of the carrying handle of the M4, because we do not have BIS (Back up iron sights). The CCO is mounted on top of the barrel on the RAS.
We shot several ranges with the POLISH G.R.O.M., (and one or two with the US Navy special Boat people, who were really impressed with the M249's) most of them use the Knights Armament M4 (fully auto) with EO Tech, and AN/PEQ6, they transition to 9mm H&K USP. The GROM guys were a really good bunch of people!
We have had no problem securing enough batteries for the CCO prior to departure from Ft. Carson. As the deployment is drawing to a close, I have recently turned in hand fulls on hand fulls of batteries back to supply. I used to carry 3 or 4 in my gear. But as long as you remember to turn it off when you are not on duty the thing lasts a long time.
If you look in the -10 TM for the M68 it lists the battery life at the minimum setting at something akin to the half life of the sun. Granted you can't see the dot at that setting unless you are using your PVS-14's mounted behind the CCO at night.
Which is something else I would like to comment on. If you order the 3x magnifier listed in the back of the -10 TM (under 'additional authorized equipment) for the PVS 14 and mount the 14's on the rail system, behind the CCO it makes for an excellent magnified night vision optic with a nice dot from the CCO for an aimpoint. You can't walk around on patrol like this but in the defense, or sitting a long range ambush its good.
As for durability, well we have a few numbskulls who are not very nice on their equipment and we didnt break any M68 CCO's in one year of field use, under all kinds of conditions. If 19 year old hillbillies from Oregon can't break it, I doubt a professional soldier could either.
NG_M4-Your Method of using the Aimpoint sounds like the old Singlepoint OEG sights from the 70's.
Singlepoints! I had one.
Used by TF Ivory Coast...
I heard that they were illegal to import into the US for civilians. Something about too much radioactivity in the illuminator. But, I do recall seeing one for sale in an old magazine.
The Singlepoint? Radioactive?
Nope. It had a orange fiber optic (plastic) rod that gathered outside light and glowed orange in the tube (hard to describe).
Early models were sort of 'dildo shaped' 1" tubes with a clear plastic 'ogive' over the 'business end' covering the light gathering rod. Standard adjustment turrets in the middle of the tube.
Later models ommitted the clear plastic 'ogive'.
Since the tube was closed, you used both eyes and parallax imposed an orange dot over the target.
I had one of those battery powered 'crosshair' illuminators (little AAA battery powered light with a fiber optic tube that glows just enough the light up scope crosshairs in low light) taped to mine for night work (it worked).
The Singlepoint itself had no tritium, batteries, etc.
Mine was the 'Son Tay raid' type. Bought at the same place theirs came from. They used 100 MPH tape to fasten theirs to their XM-177E2 carry handles. I had a real mount!
For specialized mission I carry the M68, but for just all around general use, I always carry the 4 power ACOG. Not only will it let you reach out there, but you can also use it to check out things, a long way's out.
The reticle burn issue is over rated on the EO 552E's
It is simply the PVS-14's screen gaining memory and can be easily undone by leaving the PVS-14 on for a short period of time while not using the EO.
ITT has a bunch of data.
I have had burn from (off?) the front sight/gasblock - annoying (especiialy while walking headmounted).
The Reflex's time had come and gone when it was adopted.
Rumour has a new Eotech coming down the pipe very shortly...
BadMuther
02-24-2004, 16:01
I have a Trijicon Reflex and I love it.
To each his own I guess. My next sight purchase will be an eo-tech though.
I like the fact that the reflex is always "on", and never needs batteries.
I have the 6.5 MOA dot model. I zeroed it at 50m instead of 25m and it does great out to 300m.
The thing is fast as hell (and accurate) for CQB, IMHO.
A lot of folks are saying how the trijicon reflex is outdated.....I remember in the early 90's at 2nd Batt we had Armson OEG's and Aimpoints.....now everyone has aimpoints, and I don't see too much difference between the new M68 and the old aimpoints.
Like Reaper said, everyone is different, and some things work for some that don't work for others.
I wish I had the money for a 4x32 Acog....:rolleyes:
I really think the EO Tech is the way to go, but I wouldn't knock a Trijicon reflex.......or even an aimpoint.
IMHO, the EO Tech or the reflex is better then iron sights for CQB.
My problem with the aimpoint is that it seems sometimes precious time is wasted trying to "find" the dot in relation to the target.
My 2 pesos.
NousDefionsDoc
02-26-2004, 22:43
U.S. Army- RFI and EOTech Agreement
Ann Arbor, Michigan - The U.S. Army has awarded EOTech, Inc. a contract for immediate supply of optical weapon sights. The contract acquires in excess of 6,000 EOTech standard commercial off-the-shelf, HOLOgraphic Weapon Sights for use on M4 weaponry. The specific version is the night vision compatible, AA battery model, M554.
EOTech invented and manufactures the World's 1st holographic sighting system to interface with tactical small to medium arms weaponry called the HOLOgraphic Weapon Sight (HWS). Adapted from the fighter jet's Heads Up Displays, the HWS achieves significant target acquisition speed gains while maintaining complete vision control of the engagement area.
The U.S. Army and EOTech look forward to a successful partnership that enhances the performance of the operators within the Army community.
Psywar1-0
02-27-2004, 07:19
Well Ill be Dipped............... Im a friggen prophet or something LOL. Too bad I dont have that very sight anymore. Either some Colombian Policeman in Bogota or a TSA guy in Atlanta stole my EoTech AA battery, Night Vision Compatible sight out of my luggage. :mad:
The one time I forget to put it in my carry on it gets horked. I just checked and at least they didnt get my benchmade that I carry in my flightsuit.
I try to ship everthing ahead of time. The airports have a tendency of questioning my belongings.:p
Psywar1-0
02-27-2004, 13:32
Anymore I just ask to speak to the supervisor, identify myself and let him know what Im carrying. Its about 50/50 sometimes He lets me bypass the check all together, othertimes he personaly watches the X-ray and does not then open my bag.
And now a lesson from Luke's lessons in Air Travel. Things not to say if you havent spoken to the TSA Supervisor:
"Sir your bag has tested positive for explosive residue"
Well Id hope so, there was a claymore in it till this morning