Automatic Knives: Pros and Cons

[Jfreeman]

I thought I would take a poll of some of the knowledge base here and start a discussion about automatic, aka "switchblade" knives.

My first automatic knife design project was with Ernest Emerson, the result was the "Alliance". My second project was the Gerber '06 Auto which was susequently awarded a 5-year military contract by the U.S. Army. I only mention this to show my frame of reference; I know a bit about them but I am always eager to learn more.

Why would combat-arms type people choose them over say a liner lock or frame lock? Or does it just fall under the "there is no such thing as too many knives" rule? Is there a "cool" factor in play here?

If you do carry an auto, what brand/model? What are your likes and dislikes? What would you think a "decent" factory automatic knife should cost?

Any preference in OTF (out the front) or swing out-type? How about mechanisms? Push button, slide button, mark side or on the spine? What about a safety switch? How about the spring mechanism?

Clearly there is a need for these things out there, as Gerber and Benchmade sell 10's of thousands of them per year. I'm just trying to get to the bottom of it.

Thanks,
JF

[BravoAlpha]

Would an assisted opening knife be out of the question? I've owned a couple autos and have been more impressed by the one assisted knife I own, particularly with it's safety features. It's a CRKT Triumph, retail $149.99. My only complaint is its weight and loud-opening blade.

Double finger choils
Thumb friction grooves and deeply grooved G10 scales.
420J2 stainless steel liners, one locking, are 0.1” thick.
0.14” thick blade (Reverse-curve Tanto)
AUS 8 stainless steel.
Aggressive serration
Assisted opening mechanism (after 30 degrees)
Secondary safety engages when the folder is opened and locked, creating a virtual fixed blade.
Fully ambidextrous.
Clip is removable and allows left or right tip-down carry.

My other 2 autos are a Piranha MINI Bodyguard, and an UZI Defender.

[Razor]

My personal opinion:

I believe the original intent of an auto knife in military applications was the ability to open the blade with one hand, and was issued to paratroopers who had a very good chance of getting strung up in a tree or wires with one hand/arm possibly broken or caught in risers. Thus, an auto folder (when did the term "switchblade" fall out of vogue) gave the soldier access to a blade that didn't take up as much room as a bayonet or M3 fighting knife, and allowed him to maneuver the short blade in a small space (again, unlike the longer bladed bayonet or fixed blade knife). This ease of use extended into many other one-handed applications.

The advent of the thumb-opening knife stole some of the switchblade's thunder, as it usually wasn't prohibited in many states (depending on blade length), and had less "moving parts" to gum up, break or otherwise get "Murphied" out of use.

Are auto knives still useful? I suppose, for fairly specialized applications, but a less controversial thumb opener (or even the relative newcomer--the assisted opener) would work just as well in most situations, and cause less grief when carrying it day-to-day, IMO.

FWIW, I've owned a couple auto openers. They were fun, and certainly had a "look at my cool toy" factor, but for me they weren't practical to carry as an everyday tool. To be truthful, of the knives I carry daily the one that sees the most use is a Kershaw Chive. Its small, unobtrusive, easy to open (its an assisted opener), has a useful blade geometry, and doesn't cause women and democrats to weep or faint when I open it and use it to cut cord, open a box or envelope, shave down a dowel, or put it to another of the many uses I find for it.

None of that is to say I don't get a big grin on my face when I hear the "snikt" of an auto locking open.

[Pete S]

I was issued a Benchmade 9100 Tanto autoblade. It was well made and had the "wow" factor that comes with a swichblade but it wasn't something that I liked using. I preferred my SOG Trident for all of the cord cutting, MRE opening, nail cleaning, etc. Also since it wasn't a tanto blade it was much easier to sharpen.

I have an old WWII Fallschrimjager 'Gravity Knife" around here somewhere that I used to pull out as a joke around when all the guys would pull out their high speed Strider folders. :cool:

[Go For Broke]

FWIW,

I own two Emerson designed knives, one a collaboration with Benchmade and one an Ernest Emerson Knives production. Both are the CQC7 with 1/2 serrations, swing out to the side, traditional tanto shape / blade grind (only 1 side beveled)

Differences between the knives (within the confines of this topic) is opening mechanism.

Benchmade - Push button, button release
Ernest Emerson Knives - Thumb Stud / Wave (technically an "assisted" opening but not of the cam type), liner lock

My assessment based on usage in a multitude of conditions (gloves / no gloves, wet, dry, muddy, sandy, etc) is that I prefer the Emerson Wave / thumb stud.

1 - Thumb stud is ambidextrous, no fumbling around trying to push a button if I screw up my dominant hand / arm
ability to open the blade with one hand, and was issued to paratroopers who had a very good chance of getting strung up in a tree or wires with one hand/arm possibly broken or caught in risers

2 - Easier to keep clean: Dirt, mud, pocket lint... toothpick / cotton swab, water, or even a good puff of air

3 - Less parts to break

4 - Easier to open (AND close :eek: !) with gloves on (The Benchmade CQC7 has a rather large cavity around the button, but it is of shallow depth)

5 - Less offensive to LE (no "switchblades" / "Automatic opening knives" / "gravity assisted knives" issue) - simply pull it out of your pocket carefully (so it does not open :D ) see below downside

6 - You can win a couple of bar bets with your buddies - blade deployment (out of the pocket) will beat an automatic knife (the blade must be clear of the pocket before opening can be initiated, this is also true of Spydercos I have found) but as soon as the handle clears the pocket with the wave function, it is opened Video Demo (http://www.emersonknives.com/videos/CQC-7.MPG)

"Downside" is that it functions just like any other thumb stud opening knife if it is not carried in a "pocket" (i.e. waistband carry) (I've been able to use the wave function in every pocket of my BDUs - you just have to adjust your hand position / draw technique, with either hand {it is available in left OR right hand models - not switchable})

Another downside is that you have to be careful when training, the blade does open when it comes out of your pocket - not so cool if you are doing combatives with a partner and the drill is push away from them and draw your blade as they rush you...

Just my humble $0.02

V/R,

oh yeah, also it does have that cool "snikt" of an auto locking open :D

[Bill Harsey]

Jeff,
Good question.
When the WW2 era parachute automatic opening knives were made, the regular folding/pocket knives of the time had strong spring backs that are difficult to open with one hand.

It was the knifemaker Michael Walker (sometime in late 1970's early '80s?)who took off from the concept of the old electricians knife with the brass liner safety and by completely rethinking how folding knives could work revolutionized the pocket knife industry by making a free swinging blade that had no back spring or top locking lug (traditional lockback folder).
This type of folding knife mechanism uses a stop pin instead of a spring face to stop the rotation of the blade in both the full open and full closed position.
Mike had shown me his very first liner lock and it used a pin thru the outside of the blade for the stop pin. This evolved into the thumb stud.
Since there is no spring to hold the blade in the closed position, Mike came up with the concept of a ball detente to retain a blade in the full closed position.
To open this type of blade the detente is manually overcome in a very short range of movement then the blade is again free to rotate to the full open position to the stop pin and the lock engages.
Often the amount of "free-swing" a blade has can be adjusted by the master pivot screw.
This design revolution is probably the biggest event in the history of pocket knives since the use of steel and is what makes the locking liner type of knife so functional in terms of joint strength and ease of use.

AlphaBravo,
I think the term "choil" is used to describe an unsharpened area at the base of the blade but still ahead of the handle that is sometimes used to wrap a finger around. When the curves are on the handle they are called finger grooves.

[Rob_0811]

I carry a Microtech LUDT auto and I love it.

It's light, has a simple mechanism with no secondary safety and the blade material is very good. It is easy to sharpen and keeps an edge.

[The Reaper]

I am currently EDC carrying a Lone Wolf D2, swapping off with a Sebenza.

I like the blade length and shape, but the handles, while very "grippy", are a bit thick for pocket carry. The blade is CPM-S30V, which is a big positive, IMHO. The pocket clip on the pivot end and is not reversible, I prefer a "tip up" carry, given a choice.

For those not familiar with it, the D2 has both a manual opening via a thumbstud and a hidden automatic switch. That has the benefit of avoiding unpleasant discussions with those who do not like automatics or drawing attention to oneself. It does have a strong spring, so the opening is a bit loud, more like a "clack" than a "snick".

I cannot count the number of times that I have needed to quickly and safely have an open knife while the other hand was busy or full. I have used one-handed opening knives since the 1980s starting with Spydercos. I have knives with opening holes, studs, waves, etc., and know how to use them. The D2 just makes it much easier and quicker for me.

Over the years, I have played with a number of different automatics, to include the Microtechs (which I considered a bit pricy), but other than the orange handled auto-opening "shroud cutter", the D2 is the first automatic I have owned.

There are neanderthals that associate auto openers with some sort of criminal element, but I cannot recall the last time I heard of someone knifed with an automatic.

Just my .02, YMMV.

TR

[NoRoadtrippin]

I'm currently carrying a Benchmade mini-griptilian for everyday use as well on my civilian job guiding backpacking/climbing trips etc.

In uniform, I carry a Benchmade Auto Presidio. I like this one because it uses the exact same axis lock system for an opening mechanism as the Griptilian uses for locking and unlocking. This way, I can build a better muscle memory. Both of mine are drop point blades and 1/2 serrated.

Benchmade has pretty great customer service and seems to make a pretty solid knife.

[gagners]

I carry the Gerber 06 auto that we bought as a BN for our soldiers. Initially the intent was, as RAZOR mentioned, having a knife that opened with one hand - handy for mountaineers.

I won't say that I DISLIKE the knife. It is a solid knife, albeit a tad heavy for my taste. I also have a Benchmade (standard folding) knife that's simple enough to open one-handed, so other than the WOW factor already mentioned... :rolleyes:

We also have some guys that don't clean their knives much, which makes the auto-open feature more of a hassle (since it won't work when gummed up) and the knife turns into a standard folding knife that doesn't have a nub or other thumbcatch to assist the opening.

[TOMAHAWK9521]

From my experience and life-long love of sharp, pointy things, blades and knife styles come down to user preference. I have a number of Spydercos and Benchmades. My 2 most-carried are a Benchmade 630 Skirmish and everyone on my ODA just picked up a 5000 Auto-Presidio. The 5000 Auto is cool but I still prefer the Skirmish. The mere size of the blade is enough to make others blanch with discomfort. And with the thumb-hole I can employ the Skirmish about as fast as the Presidio. As a student in Filipino knife-fighting, I like knives that are designed for combat. I can apply them for other uses as needed. As for"assisted" openers, I dislike them because I don't like the blade snapping away from my thumb.

[kgoerz]

Jeff,
Good question.
When the WW2 era parachute automatic opening knives were made, the regular folding/pocket knives of the time had strong spring backs that are difficult to open with one hand.

It was the knifemaker Michael Walker (sometime in late 1970's early '80s?)who took off from the concept of the old electricians knife with the brass liner safety and by completely rethinking how folding knives could work revolutionized the pocket knife industry by making a free swinging blade that had no back spring or top locking lug (traditional lockback folder).
This type of folding knife mechanism uses a stop pin instead of a spring face to stop the rotation of the blade in both the full open and full closed position.
Mike had shown me his very first liner lock and it used a pin thru the outside of the blade for the stop pin. This evolved into the thumb stud.
Since there is no spring to hold the blade in the closed position, Mike came up with the concept of a ball detente to retain a blade in the full closed position.
To open this type of blade the detente is manually overcome in a very short range of movement then the blade is again free to rotate to the full open position to the stop pin and the lock engages.
Often the amount of "free-swing" a blade has can be adjusted by the master pivot screw.
This design revolution is probably the biggest event in the history of pocket knives since the use of steel and is what makes the locking liner type of knife so functional in terms of joint strength and ease of use.

AlphaBravo,
I think the term "choil" is used to describe an unsharpened area at the base of the blade but still ahead of the handle that is sometimes used to wrap a finger around. When the curves are on the handle they are called finger grooves.

Ok, now tell us something we don't already know.....:D:D:D

[Jfreeman]

It has been a while since I last posted to this thread.

Thanks to all who have contributed thus far. Oh and thanks Bill for schooling us on the evolution of the liner lock and its variations. I would add CNC equipment and advances in tooling right up there with the liner lock mechanism on the "big events in knife history" list. I and others could add more; this sounds like a good subject for another thread.

Getting back to the auto subject: you have all helped confirm and further reinforce many of my feelings towards automatic knives. But then what I have heard brings up more questions.....(of course).

It is a given that people in general like autos for various reasons. The sound, the feel, the look in the other person's eyes when you open the knife. But automatics, by nature, generally have more parts than your average folder. More parts means more chances for failure and when an auto fails, you are left with a manually-opening clip knife. Not just any clip knife, but a clip knife that doesn't have another means of single-handed opening.

If you use the "speed" factor as the reason to justify an auto, one would be hard pressed to tell the difference between the speed of opening of either a flipper, thumbstud-ed or thumb-holed knife. Add in the Emerson Wave feature and you lose any percieved advantage.

In certain conditions, for personal defense and such, I augment my firearm with a small fixed blade guardian back-up. Nothing to deploy, no mechanism to get fouled. Just pull the knife from the sheath and there you are. Doesn't work all that well for utility chores, but for those things I have my clip knife.

The US Army has specified an automatic knife to fill a need. The need being a one-handed automatically deployable clip/sheath knife to be used for utility chores and personal defense if needed. But it seems here like the solution is outdated and/or is not the best solution for the need. There are many great clip knives on the market that would do the job. Probably the same goes for small fixed-blade knives. But we (the Army) still insists on specifiying and buying an automatic knife to fill the need.

Any thoughts on how to get around this issue? I do have a huge dog in the fight, as my company does a good business in selling autos directly to the military. But my conscience says that we can do better; I just don't know how to go about framing the question and starting the dialog. My goal here is to provide a better solution to the soldier's needs without pissing off the contracting officer while maintaining/upgrading the intent of the specifications.

This also makes me wonder if anyone else out there has had similar personal experiences with Army supply/purchasing/contracting. Or maybe I should ask if anyone has NOT had these experiences. ;) Have you ever been forced to buy something just because it is on some outdated "load-out" list? Everyone knows that the item is outdated (and in many cases a better version could be purchased through other channels for much less). I just gnaws at me that I am spending so much time and energy on providing something that could be so much better.

Regards and thanks for any insights,
Jeff

[Smokin Joe]

Jeff,

Have you put any thought into building a knife that has multiple opening options? Have an auto button for primary and thumb stud / thumb hole as secondary. Maybe have the auto mechanism assist the thumbstud like on most kershaw's. I'm just brain storming ways you can circumvent your issue with the purchasing Officer.

I carry an auto benchmade on duty, it is not the greatest knife, but I carry it to augment all of the other knives I carry not as a stand alone do all type of knife. If I had to choose only one folding type of knife to carry it would not be an auto. IMHO the mechanics of most autos are not dependable enough to trust your life with, and I'm not going to drop $300.00+ dollars on a knife just because it is an auto (I just do not have the salary to justify it).

That being said my father had an auto (well actually a stiletto) while working for Air America that according to him you could hold up to a 1/2 inch piece of plywood, hit the open button, and it would open right through the wood (provided you were strong enough to hold it there). He said he was never able to retard the deployment of the blade on it. Unfortunately, when he left it was one of the few things he had to turn it.

Now if you could make a knife like that I might reconsider my thoughts about auto's.

Good luck

[Razor]

My goal here is to provide a better solution to the soldier's needs without pissing off the contracting officer while maintaining/upgrading the intent of the specifications.

Yeah, ain't government contracts great? The thing is, talking to the contracting officer won't accomplish what you're looking to do. His/her job is simply to ensure the contract was competed legally, and that the winner(s) comply with all stated requirements. To get the contract changed, you need to discuss requirements with the government officer/agent for whom the contract was made. If you can find that person/office, and can wrangle a visit without violating any regulations, you need to ask them what their actual requirements are, and you can then make suggestions to better meet them. Of course, its often illegal for a contractor to discuss changing contract requirements (especially if that will lead to a new contract) unless that process is included in the contract, so you have to be very careful.

[Monsoon65]

....but other than the orange handled auto-opening "shroud cutter", the D2 is the first automatic I have owned.

Was this the Camillus made knife? I was issued one of these orange knives when I first started flying. It's a decent knife.

We've sinced been issued a Benchmade switchblade that's nice, but someone started complaining about them being gummed up in the desert, so my squadron started to give out a SOG folder.

[x SF med]

I only two 'autos' - an old German stilletto, and a Lone Wolf D2. I was issued the old orange rigging knife - it was a bear to sharpen, and I have no clue where it went. The German stilletto is a lump of doo-doo, but holds memories.

Now the D2 is a wonderful piece of gear - but, the spring is so strong it snaps a little hard. I like the fact it's a hidden release and can be opened with the thumb stud. The designer of this knife put a lot of thought into how it was put together and how it fits the hand. I'm going to have to thank him sometime.:cool:

I've checked out a bunch of other auto-open knives, but most of them have weak springs, or are just toys.