View Full Version : Questions about Flame resistant clothing - Nomex, Carbon X
Leozinho
10-06-2007, 17:51
Does anyone have recommendations for cold weather, flame resistant long underwear? I've already replaced my silk-weight polypro with Smartwool for the next-to-skin base layer. Smartwool is not specifically flame/heat resistant but since it's wool it's better than standard synthetics.
However, I'm starting to think if might be worth it to by a set of nomex or Carbon X long underwear that offers more protection. Is anyone wearing this overseas?
A nomex flightsuit is another option but my assumption is that it would defeat the purpose to wear shrink-wrap polypro underneath it. Correct me if I'm wrong. The same may apply to your base layer. Is there any point of having a good flame heat resistant base layer like Carbon X if I wear a layer of synthetic snivel gear on top of it?
Thanks.
desertmedic
10-06-2007, 20:35
Leozinho,
The Carbon-X material seems to work very well, at least from what I have gotten to see. Read an article that was doing head to head testing of the various products a while back, but can't seem to find it. Some of them didn't fare too well at that time. A company called Massif Mountain Gear (www.massif.com) has come out with some interesting looking stuff, though I have no experience with it.
Having seen first hand what happens with the shrink wrapping effect I wouldn't want it on even with a base layer underneath. At a minimum it would increase the potential burn risk, and be pretty warm for a bit. Hope that helps and crawling back into my hole,
Desertmedic
PS if the link is innapropriate please advise and it will be deleted.
Monsoon65
10-10-2007, 14:39
A nomex flightsuit is another option but my assumption is that it would defeat the purpose to wear shrink-wrap polypro underneath it.
My squadron freaked when they found out some of us were wearing poly-pro long underwear under our flightsuits while flying. I didn't know the hazards, but once I was briefed, I took them off and wore the issue nomex longjohns I was issued.
I'd be interested in finding some cold weather flame resistant stuff, too!
The Reaper
10-10-2007, 16:56
Silks are great thin layers, and there are some very nice wools that do not itch or chafe.
I quit wearing polypro on MFF jumps when I saw a piece burn. No thanks!
TR
Our company has issued Nomex cold weather clothing and gear for working outside in the arctic in Alaska'a North Slope (-40F or worse in the winter) for the last 13 years or so. Some divisions have been using it for much longer. At first we all hated it, but we've come around. There are rules about what kind of underlayers you can wear for fire safety and we have witnessed first hand that the Nomex works well in fire and poly doesn't. It is warm, but takes a bit of getting used to if you work hard and risk sweating. It doesn't breathe the same as other fabrics. You also have to keep it clean to maintain the fire resistance. Oil and grease will ruin the fire retardant properties.
DuPont's website may have the information on what combinations work.
http://www2.dupont.com/Nomex/en_US/uses_apps/life_protection.html
I hope this is useful, back to reading.....
You could go and talk to the local fire department guys and they will tell you the pros and cons of the various types of fire resistant materials. They will not be able to suggest what to use but they can tell you what not use.
If they cant help let me know.
...and there are some very nice wools that do not itch or chafe.
I have a real soft spot for wool (maybe growing up in the woods of Maine has something to do with that). The comfort of wool garments has come a long way since I was a kid. Look into Icebreaker, Ibex, Smartwool and Kuehl for decent Merino wool insulating layers. I still like the old issued brown 5-button wool sweater and a wool scarf for those colder days.
militarymoron
10-22-2007, 17:55
leozinho, i've found massif hotjohns and flamestretch (warmer) long underwear to be some of the most comfortable clothing i've worn, FR or otherwise. i've some information on my site, written from my civilian point of view.
http://www.militarymorons.com/gear/FRclothes.html
Last year at the SHOT Show in Orlando, I came across a company called Potomac Field Gear. They had some sport like shirts that they were displaying at the show and it caught my eye because O-5 USAF buddy of mine who was in charge of a certain heavy lift special Sqdrn was looking for just something like this. I gathered as much info as I could and bought a shirt from them.
I passed the info on to the good Ltc. and he got some for his men. They tested them, and they apparently passed because they bought more of them.
here is their web address: www.potomacfieldgear.com
The label that came with the shirt states:
-Fire Resistant
-Moisture Wicking
-Anti-Odor
-Anti-Microbial
-Anti-Static
Hopefully this helps someone.
Y-
Not really Base Layer stuff, but I have worn some of True North Gear's Dragon Fur Nomex Fleece and it is pretty nice. They apparently have a new line of Military/LE stuff Here (http://www.truenorthgear.com/product_listing.php?path=0_8)
HTH
Good times,
Blake
soldier506
10-28-2007, 11:48
For anyone wearing nomax coveralls. Do not wear them while doing any welding. The sparks from a welder is enough to burn holes into the fabric . Makes you wonder about the fire proffing. The reality is that they are designed for flash burns/fires only.
Does anyone have recommendations for cold weather, flame resistant long underwear? I've already replaced my silk-weight polypro with Smartwool for the next-to-skin base layer. Smartwool is not specifically flame/heat resistant but since it's wool it's better than standard synthetics.
However, I'm starting to think if might be worth it to by a set of nomex or Carbon X long underwear that offers more protection. Is anyone wearing this overseas?
A nomex flightsuit is another option but my assumption is that it would defeat the purpose to wear shrink-wrap polypro underneath it. Correct me if I'm wrong. The same may apply to your base layer. Is there any point of having a good flame heat resistant base layer like Carbon X if I wear a layer of synthetic snivel gear on top of it?
Thanks.
A company named Longworth (West End, NC) produces a line of undergarments for military use under the "XGO" trade name.
XGO FR is available in: T-Shirt (Long / Short sleeve), Boxers, Longjohns, and balaclava.
Great stuff. It has similar properties to nomex, but is a much more comfortable fabric. No shoulder seams, double stiched and is breaths well / transfers sweat.
The marines use Potomac Mills under garments, but their products contain nylon and don't breath.
SF groups are just starting to procure XGO for deploying units.
It is available on GSA advantage for unit / govt card buys as well.
Hope that helps someone not to have future skin graphs.
MC
systaltic
01-09-2008, 09:29
Description from the Potomac Field Gear site:
-garment will self extinguish once the source of ignition is removed - certified as non-melt and non-drip
-comparable to Under Armour®'s Heat Gear
-X-Static technology dramaticallly reduces the body odor and destroys a wide variety of harmful bacteria including Corynebacterium diphtheriae, Pseudomonas aeruginosa, Klebsiella pneumoniae and Staphylococcus aureus
-the fabric can take a 5,000 volt charge and decay it to 500 volts in .01 second and enhancing its safety in explosive, fuel rich and sensitive electronic environments.
Honestly, I am interested. I'm not at all qualified to advise anyone on this site. But for the listed prices, I see these products as venerable replacements for my polypro collection. Becoming a quesadilla is not on my top 10 list of things to do.
Doesn't it make you go "hmmm" when they feel they have to compare their product to someone else's?
I have seen their "no melt, no drip" Looks like it melts to me.
and the cold are a strange mix. Anytime you have a high nylon content your going to hold water, nomex doesnt breath and do you really need FR next to skin? In a cold wx environment i would suggest no, use your regular warm base layer that moves moisture and keeps you dry. With all of your outer garments if your base layer gets hot enough to melt, your respitory system is gone anyway. I ahve been looking at this stuff for a little while now and your biggest threat in FR is after ied iniation and flameover how long does your outter garment last. Nomex and Mod Acrylics are made to take the flame, absorb the heat and change state, well during that change the fiber becomes brittle. Burn an old flight suit and then abraid it, the fiber fails. Well now think aobut the ied as the iniation of the event adn your in the mix for anohter 8-12 hours, all the while your uniform is falling off of youm that would be my worry!!
No disrespect to the comment on UA, but wearing UA kit inthe field is a little weak. Take teh cold gear for instance, compression. Wear it in the cold some day and when you take it off your skin temp is cold, the compression took away your surface veinous flow. Well if your skin temp is cold there is no pressure diff to push moisture out thru the rest of the clothing system and therefor you trap all of your moisture in the system, you get colder and possibly hype out. Simple physics, it doesn't work for ops of any duration. Check it out sometime.
http://www.marcorsyscom.usmc.mil/sites/pmice/IndustryInfo/APBIMay08/Fire%20Resistant%20Clothing/Army%20FR.pdf
http://www.massif.com/nomex_clothing/elements_jacket.php
I was curious if the AEF Army Elements Fleece is underwear or outerwear, and if any of you had any experience or opinions on the product.
A company named Longworth (West End, NC) produces a line of undergarments for military use under the "XGO" trade name.
XGO FR is available in: T-Shirt (Long / Short sleeve), Boxers, Longjohns, and balaclava.
Great stuff. It has similar properties to nomex, but is a much more comfortable fabric. No shoulder seams, double stiched and is breaths well / transfers sweat.
The marines use Potomac Mills under garments, but their products contain nylon and don't breath.
SF groups are just starting to procure XGO for deploying units.
It is available on GSA advantage for unit / govt card buys as well.
Hope that helps someone not to have future skin graphs.
MC
Ive been using XGO for a little while now as the UnderArmour is no longer allowed.
I wore one XGO T for 2 weeks out in the field and it worked well. Not as good a test as the 3 loose fitting UnderArmours I used in Iraq for 13 months but long enough to decide I like material.
The material I have (medium weight) is a bit heavier than the UnderArmour but softer. I like the flat seams better and the construction is of high quality.
My concern thus far is the manufacturer is very specific about the type of laundry detergent to be used, which has been difficult for me to determine brandwise. Not using the correct detergent supposedly can effect its qualities as heat and flame retardent.
This could be an issue especially for those forced to use TCN or local laundry in 100+F water with unknown detergents-
I have a real soft spot for wool (maybe growing up in the woods of Maine has something to do with that). The comfort of wool garments has come a long way since I was a kid. Look into Icebreaker, Ibex, Smartwool and Kuehl for decent Merino wool insulating layers. I still like the old issued brown 5-button wool sweater and a wool scarf for those colder days.
Razor, after reading your post and TR's I bought an Icebreaker Bodyfit 200 long sleeve crew, and I'm glad I listened to the advice. Two years later, it is still going strong, even after repeated machine washings (delicate cycle/low heat dry). During the recent blizzard I had to carry my nephew about 1/4 mile down the hill to his house. I was wearing the Icebreaker, a Patagonia R1 Flash pullover, and just the outer shell portion of a 12-yr-old Columbia Omni Tech 3-in-1 parka. With temps in the 20's and winds gusting to 30-40 MPH, I was very warm (jogging in deep snow with a 10-yr-old thrown over my shoulder helped :)).
After it stopped snowing, with temps still in the 20's, I was shoveling snow with just the wool baselayer and an old Champion sweatshirt. The merino wool really delivers. The Icebreaker is even on sale (http://www.icebreaker.com/site/icebreaker_man_bodyfit200_oasis_crewe.html) right now.
If only Icebreaker would make their line in men's sizes. ;)
Does their stuff run small? Maybe that's why it fits me so well! :D
An XL top has a 44" chest, and an XXL stops at 46". Those folks need to eat more protein or do some push-ups.
Kingfisher
02-08-2010, 16:30
I wore Massif flying SAR in Afghanistan and worked well. Kept me fairly warm in the bird(no doors) and was able to shed it quickly when I needed to go to ground.
An XL top has a 44" chest, and an XXL stops at 46". Those folks need to eat more protein or do some push-ups.
IIRC mine is a large, but I can't confirm since I cut the tag off long ago. It does fit snug, with a little compression action. For comparison's sake, a Patagonia Capilene top in medium fits me perfectly, and I'm a 42".