HK USP Full or Compact [Archive] - Professional Soldiers ®

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ccrn

09-14-2007, 10:37

Team Sergeant

09-14-2007, 10:44

So the question is...which should I get? Fullsize or Compact 45? Im leaning toward the fullsize especially for when I deploy again and if my chain of command permits me to carry it-

Thanks

Deploying with who?
(The US military does not allow anyone to carry personal weapons.)

The Reaper

09-14-2007, 10:49

Ive been shooting USP 45s the past few days with intent to buy.

I plan to use it has a daily carry and general purpose sidearm (home defense is a shotgun). I like the idea of having the full size though most of the guys in my area very much lke the compact. This will also go to class with me so that is a consideration too.

My state has a CCW which I plan to get soon. For that purpose Id eventually get something smaller like the P2000 but as the budget is tight I need something to get that can best serve all around until such time.

So the question is...which should I get? Fullsize or Compact 45? Im leaning toward the fullsize especially for when I deploy again and if my chain of command permits me to carry it-

Thanks

You will not deploy with a privately owned weapon. You certainly will not redeploy with a POW. Period.

Consider this. In addition to being harder to conceal, you will also not be able to use the P2000 mags should you need to. Your buddies can use the same mags as the P2000, and if a high-cap mag ban comes around again, you can upograde to the P2000 and already have a stash of high-caps for it on hand and in use.

TR

ccrn

09-14-2007, 11:34

Deploying with who?

Straight leg Infantry unit. Last tme I went to Iraq we were issued M9s (mostly did route securlty and convoy escort). I know there are strict regulations regarding personal weapons but I could swear I remembered meeting someone over there that had one. My mistake.

So considering that, the compact is the frame of choice-

Thanks again

82ndtrooper

09-14-2007, 11:53

For concealment you'll find that the USP Full .45 ACP is an awfully big pistol to conceal well. It's best left to LEO and Military that can openly carry their sidearm. Although there are some that manage to conceal them. I wouldn't attempt it when you've got the choice of the USP compact

Personally I've found that the H&K P2000 chambered in .40 Smith is one really sweet concealable firearm. It's slimer dementions and choice of backstraps make it even more enticing if your hand size is not necessarily fitting to the USP full size grip. I use the large backstrap and it helped improve my groups temendously on paper. Dual ambi slide release, ambi mag release and high cap mags make it one of my favorites even though I do sometimes carry the H&K USP compact in .40 Smith.

I don't have to mention the deployment status of any of your POW's.

jatx

09-14-2007, 15:45

Unless the external safety is a deciding factor for you, you might also give the P2000SK a try before buying. It conceals very easily and fits my (medium-sized) hands just fine.

ccrn

09-14-2007, 15:48

The P2000 in some form is definitely on my wish list but further in the future.

Thanks for the suggestion-

Roguish Lawyer

09-14-2007, 20:07

Other than the nicely formed grip, I don't understand the appeal of the P2000. Why did they trash the safety?

82ndtrooper

09-14-2007, 20:48

Other than the nicely formed grip, I don't understand the appeal of the P2000. Why did they trash the safety?

Since I own one of practically every H&K pistol in production I'll try to give you my semi qualified response.

The H&K USP pistol took many of it's cues from the 1911 pistol, but with H&K's expertise in taking the 1911 a few steps into the contemporary relm of practical desires and needs. Such as an frame mounted safety, but with multiple options for the condition of carry with a decocking mode. Something the 1911 does not have. They went with a lighter polymer frame, dual recoil spring, ambi mag release in a more comfortable location, firing pin safety blocker, larger trigger well to accomadate gloves, even winter gloves, and of course a barrel with polygonal rifling. There are more elements that I could go into but let's get to the P2000.

There is a great desire for DA/SA pistols, like the Sig classic series that only has a decocker thus placing the weapon in the double action mode once you've chambered your round. Many prefer to simply pull the trigger without having to disengage the safety as part of the draw and presentation to the target. However, even with the USP you can decock the weapon and leave the safety lever in "ON FIRE" position. The P2000 addresses this market well. The P2000 comes in both the DA/SA operation with a decocker on the rear of the slide or it also comes with the LEM (Law Enforcement Mod) operation. The LEM is simply a single action mode, or as some have said, the double action type mode. I own the LEM and it's more like having a Glock, but with plenty of pre-travel before you break the 6.5 Lp trigger. I like this mode of operation for it's simplicity and it takes the safety off the side of the weapon making it more adaptable to a variety of concealed type holsters. The LEM is not hard to get used to once you fire it enough to realize that you only need to release the trigger back to it's reset point, not all the way back to it's starting point. I will add that the LEM trigger is much more smooth to break than any Glock trigger that I have fired. It's a pre-striker type design and feels more like a 4 Lp break than it's noted 6.5. It's very nice.

In a nutshell, I believe H&K addressed both the DA/SA and single action modes of operation without an external safety with the P2000 and P2000SK. Some simply do not like the safety lever on any pistol. To each their own. I don't mind either way as long as I'm trained on the disengagment of the safety lever to a practical level of proficiency.

In addition the P2000 is much more ergonomically friendly than the USP line of pistols. It's a perfect addition to the perfect manufacturer of firearms. Now the P30 is going to be made availble shortly. It's basically a P2000 with the "SPIDEY" grip with interchangable backstraps and side panels to meet a variety of different hands and grip configurations. The P2000 also has the interchangable backstraps, but not the interchangable side panels.

I would like to add that H&K developed, manufactured and distributed the finest pistols available to both the LEO community and certan military units (mostly foreign. The SEALs chose the Mk23 MOD O, but that's another story that doesn't seem give much praise to the weapon due it's size and highly misunderstood mission profile. As an "out of the box" "service grade" pistol the H&K USP and P2000 series

is in my opinion the finest pistol that anyone could purchase. Sure, you can find 1911's from Wilson, Les Baer, and Night Hawk custom that are nail drivers and incredibly reliable, but just go to any their home pages and look up their pricing. You'll see that these are not exactly "Down Range" weapons. But, these are semi custom production guns that seem to alway's require that an 1911 armorer or gunsmith to be issued along with them. You could also make my same for the H&K lineup for the Sig pistols as well, but I'm convinced that H&K is simply an uncomprimising, utility minded pistols built with the end user in mind, first and foremost.

That was long winded, but it hope it helps.

H&K pistols I own:

H&K Mk23 .45 ACP "SOCOM"
H&K USP Tactical .45 ACP
H&K USPf .40 S&W with Jet Funnel and four 16 rd LEO/MIL stamped
H&K USPc 9mm & .40 S&W & .45 ACP
H&K USP9SD 9mm Luger with threaded barrel and rear ajustable sight.
H&K P7 "Squeeze Cocker"
H&K P2000 .40 S&W
H&K USP Tactical .40 S&W
H&K USPc Tac .45 ACP with LEM trigger.

Roguish Lawyer

09-15-2007, 06:09

Thanks, 82T. I like having a safety. Baaaaaaaaaa!

jatx

09-15-2007, 08:06

Thanks, 82T. I like having a safety. Baaaaaaaaaa!

In a couple more months, you'll be able to get the HK45 with both the safety and the ergonomics!

82ndtrooper

09-15-2007, 10:52

Thanks, 82T. I like having a safety. Baaaaaaaaaa!

I do too !! I carry my H&K USP compacts in the condition one mode. (cocked and locked) Surprisingly when I was looking for a thigh rig for the H&K USPf to use at Larry Vickers pistol course I found that Safariland actually made a version of the 6004 thigh ride specifically for the condition one carry mode. The SLS rotating hood is slightly higher to slide back over the hammer in the cocked position.

As JATX mentioned, the HK45 is also going to be offered sometime this month. It's mostly like a big P2000 with interchangable backstraps and side panels, and front slide etchings, Novak sights, and the safety lever like the USP. It also will come with the ambi slide release. I've seen some of these with the longer threaded and "O" ringed barrel as well. Larry Vickers was also instrumental in the development of this pistol for the JP program. I believe it's a match grade barrel. Nice looking pistol in both the full and compact model.

ccrn

11-23-2007, 03:13

jatx

11-23-2007, 08:12

Would I be optimistic to hope I could conceal carry a USPc .45 during the summer without alarming civilians? I typically wear cargo shorts or jeans with loose t-shirt or old navy button ups.

The sworn officer behind the counter thinks its no big deal and that most people dont have the SA to notice this kind of thing. I tend to agree with him but then again, he's trying to sell me a Glock 36 too!

You'll be fine. Just invest in a good IWB holster, which will keep the weapon tighter to your body than a belt holster, and you will have no issues. You'll need to go up about two inches to carry comfortably this way, plus a good sturdy belt.

I used to carry a USP Compact in a Milt Sparks VM2 and now carry my P2000SK in another one. They are great. Try Lightning Arms to see if they have any in stock.

ccrn

01-29-2008, 22:36

OK having read on this board for awhile I know that some of the more experienced members like the DA/SA trigger. Based on the fact that my experience with pistols is limited to one (M9) while in Iraq I can freely admit Im not sure why one action is prefered over the other as I was never a 1911 guy nor am I LEO reqiured to carry DAO so I have no bias.

While attending a CCW course recently I got to shoot a few DAO guns and while I didnt like the specific models themselves (M&P, SW XD among others) I couldnt tell what is wrong or right with this trigger set up.

The guys that ran the course, including some LEO types, feel that the DAO is better for self defense as its simpler to use, and some said more defensable in court. To me simple is good no matter how much experience or training I have.

I can, however, say from experience that while in Iraq when I used the M9 it worked just fine. But I can say the same for the DAO guns I shot just a short time ago.

I might also add that if I am correct one requirement the Army had for their new pistol was to be DAO. If we are someday going that route it might make sense to carry this in the civilian sector too.

Ive done some serching on the internet and here too but nothing Ive read truly spells out specifically why one action is better than the other.

If any of you guys dont mind can you explain if and why one action is truly superior to the other? And what that differnce will mean in a daily carry or gunfight?

I truly appreciate any thoughts and comments-

The Reaper

01-30-2008, 06:13

82ndtrooper

01-30-2008, 12:11

The DAO is inevitably a longer, heavier trigger pull. And that is best case. In worst case, it stacks, creeps, loads, and generally feels like you are trying to drag a cinder block through a brushpile with your index finger.

It also makes it easy for anyone who recovers your gun to use it, and a large percentage of the LEOs shot in this country every year are shot with their issue weapons.

I see it as a solution to a non-existent problem.

Just my .02, YMMV.

TR

Can't agree more. I carry the USPc in condition one mode. With the hammer decocked it shortens the trigger pull just a tad, but not by much but it is noticeable.

Is their any handgun that can't be discharged in the hands of a bad guy ?? Most can quickly enough realize that the safety is on. This may give you a moment to seek cover but I don't see it taking long before he or she figures out that it's on safe.

Just my .02

Razor

01-30-2008, 18:53

I see it as a solution to a non-existent problem.

This is the only part I'd disagree with, TR. The problem is that either folks don't want to train enough to learn to deal with the first shot DA pull on a DA/SA, or they (or their organization) are afraid of carrying an SA in Condition 1. So I guess there are two problems the DAO addresses--fear and laziness. :rolleyes:

SureFire Kid

01-30-2008, 18:55

From my two years working sales in a gun shop, all I can really say is that whatever is most comfortable for you will be best. You already have experience shooting a DA/SA trigger with the M9. I carried a Sig P226 and really had no problems adjusting to the DA pull out of the holster and the SA pull thereafter.

One thing I have noticed in running training scenarios with someone not used to a DAO (or LEM or DAK) trigger is that they tend to anticipate the shot much more and become frustrated very easily because they pull the gun down before the shot is fired. Now, I know that that is bad form on their part, but it is something else to have to get used to. However, they have the same advantage as guys who shoot striker activated triggers (Glock, Springfield XD, etc) in that the trigger pull is always the same. Whichever way you go, try to keep your trigger systems as similar as possible (KISS).:)

The question of which would be better for daily carry or a gunfight goes back to you being comfortable. If you're comfortable with and like shooting it, you will shoot it more often. If you shoot it more often, you will become more proficient with it. If you are proficient with it, it will be the best thing for you, regardless of wether it is a DA/SA, SAO (1911), DAO, DAK, LEM, or striker-activated. Hope this helps.

SFK

ccrn

01-30-2008, 20:22

I dont mind training to use a weapon. Ive already trianed with the M9 as it is so shooting another DA/SA trigger is not going to bother me.

On the contrary, Im just trying to understand the benifits of both actions. Personally it feels weird to me that a handgun would not have a manual safety especially in the civilian sector.

While we're on that topic can anyone enlighten me to the advantages to all the configurations of the USP ie safety and decocker, just decocker etc especially for daily carry?

Thanks for the comments-

Team Sergeant

01-31-2008, 08:04

From my two years working sales in a gun shop, all I can really say is that whatever is most comfortable for you will be best. SFK

SureFire Kid,

These are the type of posts that make my hair stand on end. You've got just enough knowledge to be dangerous with no real training or experience to form a real professional opinion.

Save the weapon advice for other forums, at least until you've gone to a few Special Forces shooting schools, then, we'd be happy to hear your "Professional" opinion.;)

Team Sergeant

SureFire Kid

01-31-2008, 18:16

Roger that

SFK

SureFire Kid,

These are the type of posts that make my hair stand on end. You've got just enough knowledge to be dangerous with no real training or experience to form a real professional opinion.

Save the weapon advice for other forums, at least until you've gone to a few Special Forces shooting schools, then, we'd be happy to hear your "Professional" opinion.;)

Team Sergeant

Smokin Joe

01-31-2008, 18:50

The guys that ran the course, including some LEO types, feel that the DAO is better for self defense as its simpler to use, and some said more defensable in court

Please don't tell me a cop told you this.

If you shoot someone it doesn't matter what type of trigger, safety, gizmo or other anti-felon device you have on your gun.

Lethal for is lethal force and you:

A) intended to use that level of force or not.
AND
B) you were justified in that use of force or not.

Don't listen to gun store commandos who try and muddy the water with the above issues. Lethal force is pretty cut and dry when you get down to it.

If I'm going to shoot someone I want the biggest most accurate gun I can find. Something that puts a nice 3-4 diameter hole in someones chest. Now, being that I can't carry any incendiary or explosive rounds I'm kind of limited to a few options. I use the biggest, most accurate, and reliable pistol I'm allowed to carry. For me that is a pistol with a Single action trigger. I get the same trigger travel, tension, and break every time. I don't need to worry about a different trigger travel, tension, nor short stroking the trigger.

Thats just my opinion. Some Professionals on here don't mind a DA/SA trigger and some do. I say try both and make up your own conclusions.

HTH

ccrn

01-31-2008, 22:00

Yes, in fact an LEO did tell me that.

And Ive read that on the web too including LEO forums that I get hits on while searching.

Ive also had an LEO that works at a local gunshop call BS for the very reasons you stated though he did admit he's also heard that juries can be influenced hence why some guns and ammo has had their names changed-

ccrn

02-07-2008, 15:17

Why I struggled with this I dont know.

Maybe from hearing from so many that HK is overpriced etc etc and that there are quite a few other "combat handguns" for much less.

Anyway, I found a 6 month old USPc in 45 for $540.00 after mil discount. It took awhile to find a deal but they are to be had. With my not so experienced eyes I cannot see any wear and tear what so ever on this piece. Its in DA/SA as recommended.

I have to say this is one beautiful piece of equipment. I couldnt be happier.

Thanks for all the comments-