Knife in the SF Crest and Patch

[NousDefionsDoc]

Who can tell me what knife it is, who designed it, and why it was chosen?

[NousDefionsDoc]

STOP LOOKING IT UP!

[brownapple]

Gonna do the arrows next?

[NousDefionsDoc]

You can do them if you want. I wonder if they still ask these questions at the Q?

[The Reaper]

I know the answer, but will defer to those of you in need of education.

Don't PM me to ask, or I will report you to NDD.

TR

[brownapple]

I think this question should be restricted to those who have not earned the title "Quiet Professional".

[Surgicalcric]

Fairbairn Sykes Commando Knife that was only issued to the 1st Special Service Force.

Capt. William Ewart Fairbairn and Capt. Eric Anthony Sykes

United States Special Forces finds its roots in the British OSS.

[Surgicalcric]

Crossed Arrows:

Originally worn by Indian scouts. They were a symbol of peace to US Scouts. The crossed arrows served the 1st Special Service Force through World War II. Officers, unofficially, wore the insignia in the 60's and later was authorized authorized when SF became an official branch in 1987.

[NousDefionsDoc]

Originally posted by Greenhat
I think this question should be restricted to those who have not earned the title "Quiet Professional".

Agreed. Thank you for correcting my oversight.

[NousDefionsDoc]

Originally posted by Surgicalcric
Fairbairn Sykes Commando Knife that was only issued to the 1st Special Service Force.

Capt. William Ewart Fairbairn and Capt. Eric Anthony Sykes

United States Special Forces finds its roots in the British OSS.

Better look again. Also, better check the Army's version of the lineage. Yes, it is wrong (at least IMO).

Your Google is weak Grasshopper.

[NousDefionsDoc]

Originally posted by Surgicalcric
Fairbairn Sykes Commando Knife that was only issued to the 1st Special Service Force.

Capt. William Ewart Fairbairn and Capt. Eric Anthony Sykes

United States Special Forces finds its roots in the British OSS.

Put it back and quit cheating. Your Google is still weak.

[Farmer40]

Last time I looked the OSS was an American outfit.

[NousDefionsDoc]

Originally posted by Farmer40
Last time I looked the OSS was an American outfit.

Roger that.

Fairbairn and Sykes were Brits SCrip. Weak Google.

[NousDefionsDoc]

Oh Danny Boy, the pipes, the pipes are calling....

LOL

[NousDefionsDoc]

Crip, you're done. No more guessing. NEXT!

[Airbornelawyer]

Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
Who can tell me what knife it is, who designed it, and why it was chosen?
Steeped in legend, but the answer isn't really clear. Three knives (stilettos, really) compete for the honor - the V-42 used by the First Special Service Force, the Fairbairn-Sykes used by Rangers and the OSS dagger. All were ultimately based on the Fairbairn-Sykes, though. The 1st SSF, the Rangers and the OSS Jedburgh teams were all part of the heritage of SF, and veterans of these units were there at SF's birth, so all have a claim.

The Wilkinson-made knifes issued to Rangers in England were straightforward Fairbairn-Sykes types.

The OSS knife made by Landers, Frary & Clark was based on the Fairbairn-Sykes (Fairbairn himself designed the "pancake-flipper" sheath). The knife on the USASOC patch and crest is based on the OSS design.

The official story is that the patch designed by Capt. John Frye used the design of the V-42 commando knife ("Knife, Fighting Commando Type V-42, including Leather Sheath"). The V-42 was made by W.R. Case & Co. and was based on a design sketched out by Col. Robert Frederick, Pat O'Neill* and Col. Orval Baldwin.

But while the knife on the SF crest is more clearly a V-42 - note the pointed skull crusher pommel (Col. Baldwin's idea) - the knife on the SF patch is less distinct. It has a rounded end more like a Fairbairn-Sykes or OSS knife. And while it may have been adapted from these WW2 stilettos, it actually looks more like a Roman gladius in its dimensions, so maybe Capt. Frye had more than one weapon in mind.

Many China Marines serving in Shanghai in the 1930s picked up Fairbairn-Sykes knives (a China Marine in one of WEB Griffin's series of novels was portrayed as having played poker with Supt. Fairbairn) and they were popular, especially with some of the early Raiders. But the U.S.-manufactured versions supplied to the Corps were not well-made and Marines trained in regular knife-fighting rather than stiletto-specific techniques tended to break them, so they lost their luster in the Corps.
_____

* SGM Pat O'Neill was a veteran of the Shanghai Municipal Police who knew both Fairbairns and Mr. Sykes and was familiar with their knife. In The Devil's Brigade, he was the bespectacled guy who gives Claude Akins a block of hand-to-hand combat instruction in the mess hall.

[Airbornelawyer]

A V-42 commando knife:

[Airbornelawyer]

The OSS knife (with the pancake flipper in the background):

[Razor]

Just so Crip can use this e-beating as a learning experience, the British equivalent of the American Office of Strategic Services was the Special Operations Executive, or SOE. The SOE was, in fact, created and operating over a year before the OSS's progenitor, the Coordinator of Information (COI) office was established (SOE was established in early 1940; COI in July 1941, OSS in June 1942). The CIA has a good history of the OSS available on their website at: http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/oss/ .

NDD, I believe the reason SF's lineage is linked to the FSSF and the Ranger Companies vice the OSS's OGs is due to that whole "the OSS was technically a civilian organization, not a military unit" argument in the TIOH's eyes. Why let reality bugger up a regulation-consistant story, right?

AL, 'knifes'? :D As for the look of the dagger in the SF SSI, I'll bet that CPT Frye intended for it to be a V42, but mass production embroidery techniques in the 50s was limited in its ability to accurately reproduce the details of the dagger.

[NousDefionsDoc]

Ding Ding! A Winnuh.

There were about 4k V42s made during WWII, only issued to 1SSF (Ranger Lineage - the DOD can kiss my ass). There is one original that I know of for sale right now - $5k.

AL, you are not permitted to answer anymore questions on this thread. LOL

Lightening bolts on the patch and colors?

[Airbornelawyer]

Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
AL, you are not permitted to answer anymore questions on this thread. LOL

Lightening bolts on the patch and colors?

Lightning bolts? Officially - someone else can answer - but I was told in Group that they symbolized the three types of diving: sky, SCUBA and.... ;)

[Surgicalcric]

Originally posted by Razor
Just so Crip can use this e-beating as a learning experience...

I cant be right all the time...

I enjoy the learning though, however humbling it may be.

Think I will make my way back to the TMC now.

[The Reaper]

Originally posted by Surgicalcric
I cant be right all the time...

I enjoy the learning though, however humbling it may be.

Think I will make my way back to the TMC now.

Before you leave, drop and start pushing SC towards Georgia, it will help oxygenate your brain cell.

TR

[brownapple]

Ranger heritage got tossed in with SF because after the Korean War, there were no units to continue the heritage (no one really expected to see Ranger Companies or Battalions reformed) so SF units were assigned the heritage of various Ranger companies. To some extent, the same was true of 1SSF, although it had a clearly more suitable heritage for SF.

As a result of this, when the Ranger Battalions were stood up, they were stuck with the heritage/lineage of Merril's Marauders but NOT the Ranger Battalions of WWII or the Ranger Companies of Korea. It took a while for the Army to sort that one out (why the Ranger Battalions officially wore the Merril's Marauder type crest and shoulder patch before President Reagan authorized the scroll).

[Tuukka]

Originally posted by Surgicalcric
Fairbairn Sykes Commando Knife that was only issued to the 1st Special Service Force.

Capt. William Ewart Fairbairn and Capt. Eric Anthony Sykes

United States Special Forces finds its roots in the British OSS.

Bet the SAS soldiers who carried the FS fighting knife might have something to say to that verse...

[NousDefionsDoc]

The lineage is dicked up, IMO, because the legs that do lineages didn't take the time or bother to understand the units they were dealing with.

Again my opinion, but the 1st SSF was a Ranger Battalion. As were Merrill's etc.

Jedburgs were split As. 1/4 As. LOL

I respect the achievements of all those other units, but they are not my heritage.

OSS, JACK, SOG/SF Vietnam, right on up until today.

If it was like they say, Col. Bank would not be called the father of SF, Col. Fredrickson would.

GH is no doubt correct about the why, but IMO, they still don't have it right.

One other thing - everybody makes such a big deal out of the 1SSF being mixed Canuck and Gringo. I don't see that as such a big deal at all. Canucks been jumping the border to get into fights with us for a long time. Many thousands served in the US Army during Vietnam. Except for the French talking ones, they're just Yankees, and even the French talking ones are just Yankee Cajuns.

[Denny]

the three lightning bolts repersent the three insertions methods of SF land air and sea, and the color repersents that SF works with all the branches of the military?

[Razor]

IIRC, the teal color is TIOH's 'branch non-specific' color; since SF wasn't a branch back when the patch was created, it was made in teal. To support the color theory, the 1st Space Battalion and its three companies just received their guideons here, and they are teal (there's no 'space' branch in the Army).

[Airbornelawyer]

Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
The lineage is dicked up, IMO, because the legs that do lineages didn't take the time or bother to understand the units they were dealing with.

Again my opinion, but the 1st SSF was a Ranger Battalion. As were Merrill's etc.

Jedburgs were split As. 1/4 As. LOL

I respect the achievements of all those other units, but they are not my heritage.

OSS, JACK, SOG/SF Vietnam, right on up until today.

If it was like they say, Col. Bank would not be called the father of SF, Col. Fredrickson would.

GH is no doubt correct about the why, but IMO, they still don't have it right.
I agree that mission-wise the 1st SSF is closer to the 75th and probably belongs in its lineage. I had mentioned Jedburgh teams earlier, but it occurs to me that the OSS Operational Groups Razor mentioned are probably the truest forefathers of SF. And TIOH may not have noticed, but they did have an Army designation - 2671st Special Reconnaissance Battalion, Separate (Provisional).

OGs: Generally 15 men each. Usually two junior officers and 13 NCOs. Spoke the language of their AOs. Recruited from infantry and combat engineers, with a few medical and commo guys thrown in. Cross-trained in each others' specialties. Missions were:

- Cutting enemy lines of communication
- Attacking vital enemy installations
- Organizing and training local resistance elements
- Boosting morale and effort of local resistance elements
- Furnishing intelligence to local Allied Armies

Sounds familiar, huh?

The first ODA?:

[NousDefionsDoc]

Ok, never let it be said I am not willing to compromise. I'll accept OGs and retain the Jedburgs as split As on special assignment. Those Jedburg commo guys were nothing if not 18Es.

But OSS, not the others.

[The Reaper]

Originally posted by Razor
IIRC, the teal color is TIOH's 'branch non-specific' color; since SF wasn't a branch back when the patch was created, it was made in teal. To support the color theory, the 1st Space Battalion and its three companies just received their guideons here, and they are teal (there's no 'space' branch in the Army).

Love to see that patch and guidon.

"Where are you assigned?"

"1st Space Battalion."

"Yeah, sure. Where are you really?"

LOL!

TR

[Razor]

I'll bring the digcam in to work Monday. ;) The most common question the kids get when we send them to PLDC at Ft Lewis and other AD soldiers see their SSI is, "So, are you National Guard?"

[Bill Harsey]

I leave for a few days and look at the mess the kids made!

[Bill Harsey]

Ok, no response to my comment from last night. I think I've mastered the "thread ender". Wasn't intended that way. This was going to be my next post anyway, GREAT TOPIC! Good history. Col. Applegate would be proud of you guys. With NDD's permission, I may have some more test questions on this subject.

[Sacamuelas]

Originally posted by Bill Harsey

Bill H. thinking to himself: "Ok, no response to my comment from last night. " I wonder if everyone just missed it in the frenzy to see NDD's pic??? I will post again and see if that was it and not that I am just being ignored."

Bill H. Posting/Screaming: HELLO!!! (echo... "HELLOOOooo...hello...hello")... IS ANYBODY READING MY POST?? (echo.. "body readin my POST, Post,post")... GREAT THREAD HERE! (echo..."o' HERE..here")

Bill H. thinking to himself: I think I've mastered the "thread ender". Damn...



You are not alone Bill. Someone is always watching, listening, reading.....and waiting for the right moment!!!:eek: LOL haha

[Bill Harsey]

Based om my observations, kind of like how snipers work. This said with full and complete respect for that craft.

[NousDefionsDoc]

With NDD's permission, I may have some more test questions on this subject.

Mr. Harsey, you don't need my permission for anything. Test away please.

[Bill Harsey]

Does anyone know where Captains Fairbairn and Sykes served before World War Two and what this had to do with the knife that bears these two great men's names?

[The Reaper]

Originally posted by Bill Harsey
Does anyone know where Captains Fairbairn and Sykes served before World War Two and what this had to do with the knife that bears these two great men's names?

Shanghai Police?

No idea what it had to do with the knife.

TR

[Air.177]

If I recall, Fairbain based his combatives methods on experience gained while he was a member of the Shanghai police department. To include the use of a knife and what qualities a knife should have to be an effective weapon. eventually resulting in the F/S knife and the techniques to use it effectively. It has been stated that Fairbain was involved in 600 armed confrontations while in Shanghai.

[Airbornelawyer]

A lot of information and a pretty good read: A Brief History of the Fairbairn-Sykes Fighting Knife (http://www.selbstverteidigung.org/images/knife.html), by William L. Cassidy.

[Bill Harsey]

I will share some interesting history on the Fairbairn/Sykes knives soon. Several engineers need confusing right now, must get back to that.

[The Reaper]

Originally posted by Bill Harsey
I will share some interesting history on the Fairbairn/Sykes knives soon. Several engineers need confusing right now, must get back to that.

Does that pay well?

If so, are there any open positions there?

TR

[Bill Harsey]

Confusing engineers doesn't pay well, but it pays worse if I don't. Sir Reaper, I think you may, uh, I mean could be good at this.

[Bill Harsey]

NDD, Question that started this asked "What knife is shown on the SF Crest and Patch?". Answer seems to be V-42 Stiletto. That may be the knife that's intended to be represented but it's not what's shown. The handle, blade and guard shape are wrong for the V-42 Stiletto. The V-42 has a very narrow blade that tapers to a very sharp point. Knife on patch has nearly parallel sides and is too wide at the point. The V-42 guard is bent slightly forward while patch depicts a straight guard like the Fairbairn/Sykes. The handle of the V-42 has only a single bulge in the middle at the 2/3's forward point with NO RECURVE before pommel. Knife on patch has a recurved handle just before the pommel and I've never seen a V-42 with this handle feature. At the end of the handle the skull crusher pommel flares to a wider circlular ring making a grip for "pull back". Just a knifemakers observations.

[NousDefionsDoc]

OMG! I should have known better! LOL

Like somebody said before, its probably lack of detail and the automated patch making more than anything else.

Everything I have ever seen has said it the V42 because of the 1st SSF connection. If they had used a Smatchet like they should have, that "poetic license" wouldn't be necessary. LOL

[Team Sergeant]

Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc

Like somebody said before, its probably lack of detail and the automated patch making more than anything else.



That's what I was also thinking. Maybe they could not detail the knife enough when designing the SF Crest, too small for detailed design.

TS

[Bill Harsey]

I'm sure the limitations of the patch making machines have a lot to do with getting detail right. In "knife world" here, shape means things and very subtle shape changes can make a knife work and fell differently. I wasn't questioning tradition, just the details. Who do I call to get the smatchet put on there?

[NousDefionsDoc]

Who do I call to get the smatchet put on there?

The Reaper. :munchin

[The Reaper]

Originally posted by Bill Harsey
I'm sure the limitations of the patch making machines have a lot to do with getting detail right. In "knife world" here, shape means things and very subtle shape changes can make a knife work and fell differently. I wasn't questioning tradition, just the details. Who do I call to get the smatchet put on there?

I will need two samples for photography and extended destructive testing.

The V-42 on the crest looks a lot like an A-F, so a couple of A-Fs could work as well.

TR

[Smokin Joe]

What about this patch? What knife is it? And Who does it belong to.

I don't have the answers I'm seeking knowledge, thank you

[The Reaper]

USASOC.

Fairbairn-Sykes, IIRC.

TR

[NousDefionsDoc]

New V42 from Mick Strider. Very nice. I need one. Photo credits to Strider Knives and Usual Suspects.Net - an excellent website for knives and gadgets of all kinds.

[brownapple]

I like that.

[NousDefionsDoc]

Originally posted by Greenhat
I like that.

I need it. I'll work on him. We have a co-founder of USN on here, maybe he has some pull? LOL

[NousDefionsDoc]

More

[NousDefionsDoc]

Last one

[Razor]

I'm thankful the handle isn't made of 550 cord. :)

[Bill Harsey]

That's a cool knife. GO MICK! Wow, I'm impressed!!sumbitchbettergettoworkhereIcan'tbeliev etheydidthat-typicalexmilitaryspecialoperatorsthinktheycandoany thing..

[NousDefionsDoc]

LOL - I wouldn't worry about it Mr. Harsey. There's always some 18Xer behind you trying to take your place. Us "experienced" operators rarely lose the upper hand. :lifter

[Bill Harsey]

Thank you NDD! Mick Striders knife is a real surprise to me (I don't get surprised very often in knife world) and I will tell him this in person next month at Blade Show in Atlanta, Georgia. Anyone who is in the neighborhood is welcome and I can post more info on this show if requested. I'll be there with Chris Reeve. If anyone wants to contact Strider and has any problems, please advise and I will help. Time to post some pre history of Fairbairn Sykes Dagger on a new thread. I'll do that now.

[QRQ 30]

I was given a supply of these nkives (daggers) to issue to my indige. I didn't really have a use for the knife. It had a diamond shaped blade which was good for stabing but useless for cutting. Yhe brass handle and knob were good for ringing someone's bell.

I issued them to my team and they became a real status symbol. Only the Special Projects Teams had them. They wore those knives everywhere. Check out the linked picture, click on it and you will notice they even wore the knives for PT. I have some movies of them which are hilarious.

http://tadahling.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/box1107.jpg

[NousDefionsDoc]

They wore those knives everywhere. Check out the linked picture, click on it and you will notice they even wore the knives for PT.

"For those who have been FOOLISH and caught UNARMED!"
W.E. Fairbairn - Referring to H2H

Hard men there QRQ. I can see it in their faces even in a decades old pic on the internet. You must have been very proud of them.

[Bill Harsey]

Stating the obvious, knives mean something don't they? Great picture! Thanks.

[NousDefionsDoc]

Apparently Strider is going to make that V42 a part of their line and are indicating they will have a special price for certain people with paperwork - I'm guessing SF guys?

Sounds like somebody may have started a trend. LOL

Maybe we'll all get lucky and the competition will get so fierce the blademasters will one up themselves into donating them to SF guys with combat patches. LOL

"I always felt like Colonel Applegate was a father to me, does that count?"

"No, I never actually met him, but..."

[Bill Harsey]

uh, it's starting to get warm in here, no wait! My computer is having a wardrobe malfunction, (oops, wrong website) I mean it's not working right, it's mixing up the words here on PF. Going out to shop now to sort thru hammer collection for the Hard Drive Hammer, I think that is the long handled 12 pounder. NO WAIT! All they need are free knives! why didn't I think of that? That's reasonable. Oh yeah, forgot, divorce lawyers cost a lot..would have to include legal surcharge with free knives. Ok, now I'm on track.

[NousDefionsDoc]

LOL. I was just funnin' ya a little. My Mrs. has a bad habit of eating and wanting roof over her head as well. Wonder what caused that?:D

[Bill Harsey]

Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
LOL. I was just funnin' ya a little. My Mrs. has a bad habit of eating and wanting roof over her head as well. Wonder what caused that?:D That comes under the category of "Acute Humor Failure" and it's always caused by us. Prompting "AHF" is a diminishable skill so work hard at maintaining your qualifications. I do.

[The Reaper]

Originally posted by Bill Harsey
That comes under the category of "Acute Humor Failure" and it's always caused by us. Prompting "AHF" is a diminishable skill so work hard at maintaining your qualifications. I do.

I have post-grad work in that area.

TR

[Bill Harsey]

Post Grad? Sir, this is a compliment, your qualified to teach Doctoral Candidates at any Institution on this planet.

[The Reaper]

Originally posted by Bill Harsey
Post Grad? Sir, this is a compliment, your qualified to teach Doctoral Candidates at any Institution on this planet.

Mr. Harsey, have I induced AHF in you as well?

I sincerely hope not (unless it was in a very worthy cause).

Thanks for the kind words otherwise.

TR

[Bill Harsey]

Your welcome! No AHF here! back to the shop, my wifes coming!

[brownapple]

Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc

Maybe we'll all get lucky and the competition will get so fierce the blademasters will one up themselves into donating them to SF guys with combat patches. LOL

Making a suggestion? ;)

[Bill Harsey]

I spoke with one of the owners of Strider Knives last night and told them to start paying attention here.

[NousDefionsDoc]

I told Mick I had "borrowed" his pics and showed them to the community.

[Air.177]

Originally posted by Bill Harsey
I spoke with one of the owners of Strider Knives last night and told them to start paying attention here.

Please sing out when he gets here if you could

[Mick Strider]

Okay...really quick!

Sorry but im Jammed due to the ever closing Blade show.

The first V42 that you see in this post was made for Col. Thomas Herman whom was inducted into the Special Operations Warrior Foundation Hall of Honor in Nov of 2003. Col. Herman was also the individual that evacuated the Commander and Chief on 9/11.

We plan to put this knife into our standard line up, as well as offer it as a boxed award piece for those that need that type of thing.

Thanks for your kindness in having us here.

More to come!

m

[Smokin Joe]

Welcome Sir!

[The Reaper]

Mr. Strider:

Thanks for the inside scoop.

I suspect that you will sell a lot of them within our community, to include the boxed ones.

TR

[Bill Harsey]

Very Cool Mick. Thanks.

[Mick Strider]

couple more pics for you

m

[Mick Strider]

2

[Mick Strider]

3

[Solid]

Beautiful. Thank you Mr. Strider, and welcome!

Solid

[Air.177]

That is a good looking Knife sir. I look forward to when you have more time to discuss your projects here.

[NousDefionsDoc]

Is Blade over yet?

:munchin

[shadowflyer]

NDD,


As far as I know it is June 5-7 here in Atlanta. I plan on visiting the crew at the Blade Show and meeting Mr Harsey and Mr Strider to admire their handywork.

Jason

[NousDefionsDoc]

Originally posted by shadowflyer
NDD,


As far as I know it is June 5-7 here in Atlanta. I plan on visiting the crew at the Blade Show and meeting Mr Harsey and Mr Strider to admire their handywork.

Jason

I hate you







:D

[shadowflyer]

Sadly enough I will only be window shopping, as I am low on discretionary funds. *sniff, sniff*

I will just be happy to meet the folks named above.


If anyone has any special requests or needs anything from the Blade Show, I will be attending. If anyone is coming down and wants to link up for a cold, adult beverage I will be available by cell phone. PM me for my cell number.


Best Regards,
Jason

[Bill Harsey]

Yes Blade Show in Atlanta is June 4, 5 and 6 in the Cobb Galleria Centre at 2450 Galleria Parkway, this is Northwest Atlanta just off the freeway. The convention center is connected to the Renaissance Waverly Hotel. Watering hole for hotel is in the huge atrium with glass ceiling about 130 feet overhead. Bring rappelling gear.

[Sacamuelas]

Originally posted by Bill Harsey
]Watering hole for hotel is in the huge atrium with glass ceiling about 130 feet overhead. Bring rappelling gear.

Crap, I wish I could make it to see TR rappelling down from the rafters for a Maker's and water with Bill cheering him on. Unfortunately, I will be at a Jawbreaker convention in Sandestin,FL June 4-9, and I don't think I can talk HH6 into changin those plans for a Blade show. DAMN:mad:

[Bill Harsey]

Sir Jawbreaker, How big a circle do we have to clear for your rotors? We could set you down on the roof of the Renaissance Waverly if we have to. Lot's of room in the big parking lot across the street too. Come on up! Bill