View Full Version : MG 34 Question
Smokin Joe
09-29-2006, 16:46
If a .308 round is placed inside the chamber of an MG 34 (chambered for 8mm) can or will the gun be capable of slam firing if the bolt is racked?
Or
Does the trigger have to be pulled in order for this scenario to occur?
Thank you for your time,
SJ
Team Sergeant
09-29-2006, 17:21
If a .308 round is placed inside the chamber of an MG 34 (chambered for 8mm) can or will the gun be capable of slam firing if the bolt is racked?
Or
Does the trigger have to be pulled in order for this scenario to occur?
Thank you for your time,
SJ
Slam fire, I doubt it. Most military weapons (especially well designed German machine guns such as this one) do not have slam fire problems. I'd say someones finger was on the trigger if there was a ND.....:rolleyes:
MG-34 is a recoil-operated, selective fire weapon. It uses short recoiling barrel with muzzle recoil booster which also serves as a flash hider. Barrel locking is achieved by the rotating bolt head, with interrupted threads locking lugs, that lock into the barrel extension. Bolt head has a set of rollers, located just behind the lugs. These rollers are used to rotate bolt heads to lock and unlock, when riding inside the curved grooves, cut on the inner walls of the receiver. Rollers also act as a bolt accelerator, when bolt unlocks, due to interoperation with the barrel extension. Tubular receiver is linked to the tubular barrel sleeve by the swinging stud, set at the right side of the receiver, so receiver can be turned up and to the right relatively tho the barrel sleeve, thus exposing the barrel rear end. When receiver is opened, barrel can be simply withdrawn from its sleeve to the back, but when barrel is hot, this requires some sort of the heat protection, so MG-34 operator had to use asbestos glove which was a standard acessory to the gun. MG-34 usually was issued with belt feed, which was operated by the stud on the top of the bolt body. Belt feed could be easily set up to take the belt from the left or from the right side of the gun. With special replacement feed cover, a double-drum, saddle-type 75 rounds magazines can be used. MG-34 was a selective fire weapon, with mode of fire being controlled by dual trigger. A pull on the upper part of the trigger produced single shots, while a pull on the lower part produced full auto bursts.
Gene Econ
09-29-2006, 20:12
If a .308 round is placed inside the chamber of an MG 34 (chambered for 8mm) can or will the gun be capable of slam firing if the bolt is racked? Or Does the trigger have to be pulled in order for this scenario to occur? Thank you for your time, SJ
Joe:
Who are you about to smoke and on what web site? He, he, he. I gotta see this one.
How about looking up each cartridge for their dimensions while loaded with what ever service load is being discussed. Taking a look in the Sierra Reloading Manual, it appears that the 7.62 brass will fit into the "8" X 57 Mauser chamber. However, the overall length of the .308 is shorter than that of the 8 X 57 by about .44 inches.
What this probably means is that the 7.62 cartridge will slide into the 8 X 57 chamber but will fall so far into the chamber that the firing pin probably won't strike the primer on the 7.62 cartridge.
Give me a overall cartridge length on both of the rounds this fellow is using and we will see. Off the bat, .44 inches is a huge amount of difference in terms of overall cartridge lengths.
Now, I have fireformed brass that was seriously short in headspace. This was possible because I seated the bullet out so far that it engaged the lands of the rifling and forced the rim into the bolt face.
Slam firing is a matter that has nothing do do with headspace. Any weapon that uses an inertial firing pin can slam fire. It is a fault of the firing pin, firing pin hole, and or worn out trigger parts.
Gene
...What this probably means is that the 7.62 cartridge will slide into the 8 X 57 chamber but will fall so far into the chamber that the firing pin probably won't strike the primer on the 7.62 cartridge...
Gene
I just tried it, and a 7.62 cartridge is fatter. It jams in the MG-34 chamber and protrudes about 1.25 inches from flush.
Smokin Joe
09-29-2006, 23:09
I'm not gonna smoke anyone.
An individual who works for my agency went to "A firearms Instructor School." (and I ain't saying where in an open forum). When an instructor brought in an MG 34.
According to my guy: A student was dicking with the weapon, pulled the bolt to the rear, let it go, when the chamber shut, it fired. The round missed my guys head by a few inches he now suffers some permanint hearing loss in one ear.
A lawsuit is in the works and the attorneys are saying that the student has as much culpability as the instructor running the course (and who the weapon belonged to).
My guy asked me if I would ask around to see if anyone who is familiar with the MG 34 knows if the above scenario is possible or if the guy had to pull the trigger.
From Mugwumps response it sounds like something else is up.
Thanks for the responses Gentlemen, keep'em coming.
Team Sergeant
09-30-2006, 09:23
There is a simple way to find out if it did indeed "slam" fire, set it up again, 'cept this time move the "firearms" instructor out of the way.
If it did it once it will do it again. :rolleyes:
The Reaper
09-30-2006, 09:32
Let the ATFE do it.
They will spend days trying to get a semi- weapon to give them a double so that they can charge the owner.
Frankly, the story sounds implausible.
Was the expended brass and the bullet recovered? That would be material evidence that would normally be required to determine what happened.
Or sue the Nazis who made the 34, if he can find them.
TR
From Mugwumps response it sounds like something else is up.
Yikes. Given the scenario, I checked again. There's no way a 7.62 x 51 will fit into the 8mm chamber of an MG 34. Now I have heard of these guns being re-barrelled for .308. Is that a possibility?
I may be missing something here, but how can a properly-functioning open bolt weapon fire when the charging handle is racked? Maybe pulled back but not enough to engage the sear? Are they saying the gun was defective as well? If the round fired was truly a .308 it sounds like the gun was re-barrelled (otherwise the case would have split, no?) and the trigger was pulled. Someone casually racking the action could hold the pistol grip in the left hand while pulling on the charging handle with the right. I don't know what would happen if the trigger was depressed when the handle was released.
Gene Econ
09-30-2006, 11:45
I just tried it, and a 7.62 cartridge is fatter. It jams in the MG-34 chamber and protrudes about 1.25 inches from flush.
You are absolutely correct. I was looking at the specs for the rim and web. The 8mm X 57 is .431" where the case body meets the shoulder. The .308 is .454" at the same location. The Mauser is more tapered. No wonder the .308 round stuck.
I have no clue what happened.
Gene
x SF med
09-30-2006, 20:04
You are absolutely correct. I was looking at the specs for the rim and web. The 8mm X 57 is .431" where the case body meets the shoulder. The .308 is .454" at the same location. The Mauser is more tapered. No wonder the .308 round stuck.
I have no clue what happened.
Gene
Operator headspace and timing malfunction? OOPS, wrong weapon.
According to my guy: A student was dicking with the weapon, pulled the bolt to the rear, let it go, when the chamber shut, it fired. The round missed my guys head by a few inches he now suffers some permanent hearing loss in one ear.
Have to add why was a Student in a Firearms school permitted to dick around with a loaded Weapon and have it pointed at someone. Sounds like the Instructor or whoever was in charge when this happened is at fault here to. Did this happen in a classroom or on a Range? Would like to hear the outcome of the lawsuit if it go's thru.
Smokin Joe
10-02-2006, 00:56
Have to add why was a Student in a Firearms school permitted to dick around with a loaded Weapon and have it pointed at someone. Sounds like the Instructor or whoever was in charge when this happened is at fault here to. Did this happen in a classroom or on a Range? Would like to hear the outcome of the lawsuit if it go's thru.
The law suit is a go. The ND occured in a classroom on a range compound. The entire sight is considered an active range, with certain designated safe areas throughout the range. The classroom is considered a designated safe area.
*For these purposes a safe area means pistols stay in holsters and / or are cleared prior to entering the classroom. All long guns are unloaded and cleared (or atleast should be) prior to entering a safe area.*
The class was a Firearms Instructor school. The lead instructor owned the MG 34. Failed to check it prior to bringing it into the classroom.
The lead instructors lawyer is claiming "some" clupability but they are also saying that some of the clupability rests on the student who was dicking with the weapon.
Oh and I failed to mention this BIG part. The reason why the MG 34 was there was because various weapons were brought into teach the students how to check and make safe various weapons.
Team Sergeant
10-02-2006, 08:18
The law suit is a go. The ND occured in a classroom on a range compound. The entire sight is considered an active range, with certain designated safe areas throughout the range. The classroom is considered a designated safe area.
*For these purposes a safe area means pistols stay in holsters and / or are cleared prior to entering the classroom. All long guns are unloaded and cleared (or atleast should be) prior to entering a safe area.*
The class was a Firearms Instructor school. The lead instructor owned the MG 34. Failed to check it prior to bringing it into the classroom.
The lead instructors lawyer is claiming "some" clupability but they are also saying that some of the clupability rests on the student who was dicking with the weapon.
Oh and I failed to mention this BIG part. The reason why the MG 34 was there was because various weapons were brought into teach the students how to check and make safe various weapons.
Going to be an open and shut lawsuit IMO.
Strike One, Instructor fails to check weapons and make them safe prior to allowing anyone else to handle them.
Strike Two, Instructor brings a loaded, instructional weapon into the classroom "safe area".
Strike Three, Instructor relinquishes control of a dangerous weapons system to students not yet trained to handle them.
Where's my thread concerning choosing a "competent" firearms instructor? This was not that DEA weapons safety instructor teaching weapons safety again was it?
TS
The Reaper
10-02-2006, 08:19
Joe:
Where did the ammo come from?
TR
Smokin Joe
10-02-2006, 16:31
Joe:
Where did the ammo come from?
TR
-I don't know Sir.
Well I got some better info today.
The MG 34 sounds like it may have been rechambered to .308 because the bolt closed on the round.
Also for clarification the cycle of events went down like this:
This was a Firearms Instructor School, all students are (or were at the time) Police officers who have to have atleast 2 years on the road and have been selected by there departments to be instructors in this field.
- Some time prior to the class while the MG 34 was greased up for storage. Someone (no idea who) had placed a live .308 round in the chamber and manually closed the bolt on the weapon. Probably because they couldn't get the round out of the chamber.
- The lead instructor failed to check the weapon prior to brining it into the classroom.
-The classroom excersise had approximately 15-20 different weapons on the table. The weapons were displayed, the students were invited up to the table as a weapons clearing familariztion (sp?) excersice.
- A student picks up the MG 34 looks at the outside of the weapon and rolls the weapon back and forth in his hands. The student then puts the weapon back on the table (on its bipod) pulls the bolt to the rear and opens the breach. The bolt automatically closed on the .308 round and slam fired. Giving my buddy powder burns on his left arm and 13 % hearing lose out of his left ear.
- The student who was handeling the weapon when it fired swears he did not touch the trigger and others confirm that they didn't see his hand near the trigger.
I guess the big question is when the bolt is pulled to the rear and the breach is opened is the bolt Supposed to slam shut?
Thanks again for your time and attention.
Joe
The Reaper
10-02-2006, 17:22
That is how an open bolt weapon fires, when the bolt is released.
Sounds like the student pulled the bolt partially to the rear, not far enough to engage the sear and lock the bolt before releasing it.
If your buddy did not clear all weapons he brought before allowing the untrained students to play with them, I would hold him responsible for the accident. He did accomplish his teaching point about people handling unfamiliar weapons though.
Course, that is just my .02, YMMV.
TR
Smokin Joe
10-02-2006, 18:36
That is how an open bolt weapon fires, when the bolt is released.
Sounds like the student pulled the bolt partially to the rear, not far enough to engage the sear and lock the bolt before releasing it.
If your buddy did not clear all weapons he brought before allowing the untrained students to play with them, I would hold him responsible for the accident. He did accomplish his teaching point about people handling unfamiliar weapons though.
Course, that is just my .02, YMMV.
TR
--LOL
My buddy was another student who didn't bring any of the weapons. He was standing there waiting to finger the MG 34 when this happened.
Thanks TR.
Ambush Master
10-02-2006, 19:00
Having been involved in and knowing about a few other incidents, EVERY time you mix LEOs with "Open Bolt Weapons" something is going to head South!!! Most people do not understand that operating system and in, what they think, making the weapon safe, they lower the bolt and an AD/ND occurs!! The owner of the weapon/operator of the school are in real trouble!!!
The MG 34 sounds like it may have been rechambered to .308 because the bolt closed on the round.
Has the .308 case been recovered? Because it's much more likely that it was a 7.92mm round. The 7.62x51 conversions are very rare, finnicky and expensive.
...The student then puts the weapon back on the table (on its bipod) pulls the bolt to the rear and opens the breach. The bolt automatically closed on the .308 round and slam fired....
I guess the big question is when the bolt is pulled to the rear and the breach is opened is the bolt Supposed to slam shut?
No, it does not normally move forward when the cover is raised.
If the weapon was cocked, opening the feed cover wouldn't allow the bolt to move forward. But if, as TR says, the sear wasn't engaged the bolt could hang up (excess grease or Schmutz?) and then be released when the cover was raised. The gun would then fire.
It is very unwise to open the MG 34 feed cover unless you are certain the gun is cocked. When I was taught to fire it, the stoppage drill called for cocking the gun, making it safe and then opening the feed cover. If the weapon couldn't be made safe (which means it couldn't be cocked) then the cocking handle was to be held to the rear when the cover was raised.
It sounds like this happened exactly as you described -- no trigger pull was necessary. The only thing I'm sceptical about is the 7.62 round. Occam's Razor says it was a 7.92 left in the breech.
The Reaper
10-02-2006, 20:07
I would caution against opening the feed tray cover if the gun is hot.
One of my guys lost an eye with an M-60 when he did as you described. The gun broke an extractor during sustained fire, and when he opened the cover, the stuck round cooked off and the case fragged him in the face.
TR
x SF med
10-03-2006, 06:51
When I was in 18B school (back in the dark ages, when we actually fired the MG34) I remembere we did hundreds of stoppage drills on the thing, just because it was open bolt.
In the case cited above - idiocy ruled completely - WTF was an uncleared weapon doing in a 'safe' area? Why wasn't the instructor/owner of the weapon with a weapon new to the students during initial orientation to the system? Why was the idiot trying to force the wrong ammo into the chamber?
Culpability runs to the instructor first and the student 2nd - run a clearing drill immediately upon getting to a weapon, even if 30 people have handled it prior to your turn. Bullet launchers can be tempramental, and the operator has to be ready for any eventuality - cook off, misfire,stuck round - anything....
edited for spelling.
I would caution against opening the feed tray cover if the gun is hot.
One of my guys lost an eye with an M-60 when he did as you described. The gun broke an extractor during sustained fire, and when he opened the cover, the stuck round cooked off and the case fragged him in the face.
TR
Man, I'm sorry to hear that. I'll pass it on to who ever ends up in BB4 (Backyard Bunker 4) with the MG 34.
Just kidding -- I haven't fired one of these in 25 years. I picked up a parts kit (sans receiver) for a song in the early 80's but that will never come of anything, obviously. The kit was "ruined" from the collector standpoint by being stamped with a Star of David by the Isaelis, who used it in 1948 and 1956. Ironic, eh?
Team Sergeant
10-03-2006, 08:41
No, it does not normally move forward when the cover is raised.
If the weapon was cocked, opening the feed cover wouldn't allow the bolt to move forward. But if, as TR says, the sear wasn't engaged the bolt could hang up (excess grease or Schmutz?) and then be released when the cover was raised. The gun would then fire.
It is very unwise to open the MG 34 feed cover unless you are certain the gun is cocked. When I was taught to fire it, the stoppage drill called for cocking the gun, making it safe and then opening the feed cover. If the weapon couldn't be made safe (which means it couldn't be cocked) then the cocking handle was to be held to the rear when the cover was raised.
It sounds like this happened exactly as you described -- no trigger pull was necessary. The only thing I'm sceptical about is the 7.62 round. Occam's Razor says it was a 7.92 left in the breech.
mugwump,
Your experience with machineguns comes from where?
Never open a feed tray cover on a machinegun without placing the weapon on safe. If you cannot place the weapon on safe then you better grab the charging handle.
Usually I grab the charging handle first to ensure that even if the bolt is not engaged that it will not go forward.
It sounds as if the last time the weapon was fired it jammed. The shooter might have thought it was out of ammo and left it.
Student opened the feed tray and BOOM, it did not slam fire, it fired because the sear was not engaged and the bolt was being held by the force of the feed tray and feed tray cover.
So Joe you original question, could it have slam fired, not how you might think but yes, it fired because it was loaded and simply lifting the feed tray would have caused a discharge.
That instructor needs a new line of work, hes dangerous.
TS
mugwump,
Your experience with machineguns comes from where?
<snip>
TS
TS, I think we were typing at the same time. The only machinegun I know anything about is the MG 34. A long time ago a neighbor, who had been an ME-109 pilot (my then-girlfriend's father), and two of his friends (a US Army engineer who'd been in the Bulge in '44 and a second German emigre who'd fought briefly as an infantryman MG 34 gunner in France in '44) invited me to a shoot in another state. The German infantryman taught me the MG 34 over three days. Short time, I know, but the guy was meticulous -- I can still remember about every word. Funny, we both shot a couple of bursts on the MG 42 for the first time while there. His unit had only second-line weapons and he was wounded and captured after 2 months on the line. I also learned how to make mess-kit bacon, onions and potatoes like they made on the German line.
The Germans used to march in my town's Independence Day parade with all the US WWII vets. All three have passed away now.
Sorry for straying from my lane.
Team Sergeant
10-03-2006, 11:54
The facts are changing in the story.... now that its not a jammed casing but an actual 7.62 chambered barrel I'm wondering if the idiot instructor even know what weapon he's actually got a hold of......MG3 maybe?
I stand by the possibility this was caused by what I wrote above, a jammed weapon that fired upon opening the feed tray cover, the chamber may have been empty and the casing may have been on the face of the bolt, who knows.
That said, if you cannot place a machinegun on safe than you'd better grab the charging handle before you open the feed tray.
This sounds more and more like 99% fault of the firearms "instructor".
Team Sergeant
Smokin Joe
10-03-2006, 13:47
The facts are changing in the story.... now that its not a jammed casing but an actual 7.62 chambered barrel I'm wondering if the idiot instructor even know what weapon he's actually got a hold of......MG3 maybe?
I stand by the possibility this was caused by what I wrote above, a jammed weapon that fired upon opening the feed tray cover, the chamber may have been empty and the casing may have been on the face of the bolt, who knows.
That said, if you cannot place a machinegun on safe than you'd better grab the charging handle before you open the feed tray.
This sounds more and more like 99% fault of the firearms "instructor".
Team Sergeant
I'd say about 100% fault of the firearms Instructor for bringing a hot MG into a safe area where you are giving inital weapons familirzation to a bunch of guys who don't know a damn thing about the weapon.
If a .308 round is placed inside the chamber of an MG 34 (chambered for 8mm) can or will the gun be capable of slam firing if the bolt is racked?
Or
Does the trigger have to be pulled in order for this scenario to occur?
Thank you for your time,
SJ
They all are capable of a AD if the bolt roller slips out of the feed track, I agree with TS on the jam therory.
this sounds to me what happened, someone dident fully clear or do a function check after a jam they just cleared the links with a open feedtray then cracked the bolt alittle to check the boltface and dident clear the round out of the chamber.
Then closed the feed tray cover with the bolt not alinged with the feed track.
SAFTY dident clear the weapons for display,thats a NO NO, student's not knowing how far the bolt should charge to the rear to engadge the sear, rejamed the weapon, bolt to the rear hung on the feed tray, some other student opens feedtray cover...
BOOM...
The MG34 fires from an "open Bolt" The trigger would need to be pulled for the weapon to fire.
The MG34 is selective fire. The trigger has a toggle action to it. The upper half of the trigger is for semi-automatic fire, and the lower half is for full automatic fire.
It still might not fire as a '308 round is 51 mm in length and the 7.92 round is 58mm in length. If the 308 is pushed all the way into the chamber, I seriously doubt that the firing pin would be able to reach the primer!!:rolleyes:
I'd say about 100% fault of the firearms Instructor for bringing a hot MG into a safe area where you are giving inital weapons familirzation to a bunch of guys who don't know a damn thing about the weapon.
I agree 100% with your 100%
Since joining the contract world I have been witness to some of the most unprofessional and incompetent Instructors one could imagine. I know there is a thread on this just some of my 02 here. Just because I am SF do's not influence my opinion that former Active Duty SF makes the best Instructors. Many contractors are starting to realize this. We had a bad name in my program for a few years because of a few Reserve or NG bad apples. Last time I passed Thru the Corporate HQ for my out brief the head honcho made the comment that you ex SF guys are our strongest employees. It brought a smile to my face.
The Reaper
10-09-2006, 21:40
The MG34 fires from an "open Bolt" The trigger would need to be pulled for the weapon to fire.
The MG34 is selective fire. The trigger has a toggle action to it. The upper half of the trigger is for semi-automatic fire, and the lower half is for full automatic fire.
It still might not fire as a '308 round is 51 mm in length and the 7.92 round is 58mm in length. If the 308 is pushed all the way into the chamber, I seriously doubt that the firing pin would be able to reach the primer!!:rolleyes:
Go back and do some reading earlier in this thread.
The 7.62x51 has a larger case body than the 7.92 and should not fully chamber in the MG34. In the MG3, no worries.
TR
We have established that open bolt MG's can fire when not fully cocked (who knew :rolleyes: )
I almost lost an eye on a M240 when a gunner opened the cover on a stopppage and had not ensured the weapon was fully cocked and did not hold the cocking handle to the rear when the cover was raised (thank god for oakleys)
Issue as I see it.
1) Instructor brought a non cleared weapon into a classroom
2) Non qualified Personnel where allowed to fiddle fuck it without supervision.
The ammo inserted and fired is somewhat non relevant -- AS IT NEVER SHOULD HAVE BEEN PRESENT IN THE FIRST PLACE.
Joe anymore going on with the lawsuit in this case,
keep us posted.
Smokin Joe
10-15-2006, 15:18
Joe anymore going on with the lawsuit in this case,
keep us posted.
Will do. I haven't seen my guy in over a week but I will ask when I see him.