I'm bored, let's fight

[NousDefionsDoc]

First, let me say that despite my various incarcerations at the hands of an unjust justice system, I have respect for the work done by LEOs. My brother was one for years.

However, I have noticed a trend since 9/11 (it may have been going on before that) for law enforcement personnel to compare themselves to the military, to "borrow" terminology, to use military equipment and weapons, etc. It has reached the point where I, perhaps overly sensitively, seem to detect a chip on the shoulder of many. They appear to be overly justifying the work they do when on joint boards. Without need as far as I'm concerned.

I have heard them call each other and themselves "Operators", their ops "Special Ops", etc. The latest I heard is LESOM (Law Enforcement Special Operations Medic). This is the name some wish to give the paramedics that work with SWAT teams on raids, etc.

I really don't understand this sudden need to paramilitarize law enforcement. I never called myself a SWAT guy. I also think it is very, very dangerous path to go down, especially if it is coming from within.

There is a reason for such laws as Posse Comitatus and many have seen first hand the effects of deviating from a separation of responsibilitites. My personal opinion is that policies such as having FBI personnel overseas is detrimental to their actual mission. There are training missions overseas that I think should be done by LEO, the military in many cases doesn't have the expertise in the subject matter, personal protection comes to mind. (Yes, I know some military personnel have dones it, but its not core business.)

During Operation Promote Liberty (nation building in Panama) we were assigned a reservist from the LA County Sheriff's Department to "assist us". The idea was to convert the PDF into police. We obviously didn't know the first thing about policing skills, so the planned seemd valid.

Now, this young man was a fine citizen. Hispanic decent with decent language skills, years of experience working in the LA County jail. Nice guy too. He also had no lesson plans or any idea of how to do them or a POI, no instructor skills, etc. So he sat around for a month or two while we did the work. I don't blame the individual, he simply didn't have the mind set to do the job.

Another case is the death and wounding of the Robin Sage guys. I don't know all the details, but there is a problem there. We've been working that area non-stop since 1952. There's no excuse.

I rode with my brother on I 10 just out of Houston numerous times. That doesn't qualify me as LEO, but as I said to him, it gives me enough of a basis to make the statement "No way in hell I would ever do things the way they do." In his case, ongoing training was non-existent. Weapons maintenance, non-existent, intelligence - non-existent, language skills in a primarily Hispanic area - non-existent. I know everybody's experiences will be different, and I'm really not generalizing. Just looking for discussion.

Anyway, I just thought I'd throw that out there and see if there were any comments.

ATTICA! ATTICA!

[pulque]

let me say that despite my various incarcerations at the hands of an unjust justice system

?!!? dont tarnish my perfect image of you (unless its a really good story!)

I really don't understand this sudden need to paramilitarize law enforcement.

The previous discussion about defining street gangs as insurgencies was food for thought. I think LEOs do see themselves in a new role these days. For example, Seattle 1999.

Another case is the death and wounding of the Robin Sage guys. I don't know all the details, but there is a problem there. We've been working that area non-stop since 1952. There's no excuse.

TRAGICALLY POOR communication.

ongoing training was non-existent.

true of most civilian professions.

bleh.

[Team Sergeant]

Originally posted by pulque
[ For example, Seattle 1999.

Refresh my memory. (tell me you're not refering to a man with a sword holding off the entire Seattle PD for an ungodly period of time.)

Team Sergeant

[Airbornelawyer]

WTO Ministerial meeting in Seattle in 1999. The first big anti-globalization protest bringing together leftists, anarchists and assorted nutcases and agitators. Thousands of protesters, lots of tear gas, and far more organization among the criminal elements in the protesters than in a typical riot.

[pulque]

Originally posted by Team Sergeant
Refresh my memory. (tell me you're not refering to a man with a sword holding off the entire Seattle PD for an ungodly period of time.)

Team Sergeant

I remember that guy.
No, I'm refering to unruly people without swords.
http://www.seattleweekly.com/feature...anderson.shtml

Its the whole crowd control thing. It makes civilians nervous. Causes problems. Blurs the lines.

[Noslack71]

NDD, I tend to agree with you. I was a DC cop for about 5 years after comming back from VN. 2 yrs undercover and part of the assault team when the Hanafi Muslims took over The District Bldg and had about 100 hostages in 1977(Jimmy Carter actually negotiated with them). About 60% of the department were former Army and Marine types with at least one tour in VN. I started out walking a beat in the Ghetto, no radio, 1 SW .38,(18 rnds 158 grain round nose bullets) 1 pair handcuffs, nightstick and a blackjack. Communication was via callboxes on the streetcorners. First thing you learn is not to lock anybody up in the middle of the block, you'll have to fight him all the way to the call box. We were expected to become part of the neighbor hood. Crimes were solved by communication with folks in the neighborhoods. The tendency for cops to become more and more military seems to have begun with the war on drugs and the infusion of Federal aid. In 1977 a group of Hanafi Muslims took over the District Bldg. They held about 100 hostages less than 2 blks from the Whitehouse. During the initial takeover 1 student reporter was killed, 2 cops were wounded, Marion Barry was shot in the chest and my partner grabbed his ankles and rushed him down 2 flights of marble stairs(DC Police got its biggest raise in history following that) to save his life. That vwas the end of the casualties. During the next three days DC police officers with mdl 70, .270's (w/iron sights) , 870 pump shotguns and 6 shot.38 cal revolvers held the terrs at bay in the city council chambers with no further injuries. I think I saw two Uzi's and officers on the outside had sniper rifles w/ telescopic sights. A big part of the success was keeping the FBI out of it.
I think the appearance of overwhelming firepower and the military appearance of SWAT teams etc has reached a point of dimishing returns. The WTO riots you mentioned in Seattle. I live across the ditch from Seattle and it was an abysmal showing by the cops. You might notice that DC has many demonstartions each year. Demonstration routes are planned, at each intersection part of the group is forced down another side street. The crowd is continually broken into smaller and smaller groups with routes that never intersect. This is not rocket science but, it does take planning and patience. It seems the police attitude has changed to more of one of confrontation. The Feds have a hand in this. They will come into town, kick ass, stir up the locals and leave the local cops to clean up the mess. I suspect that after a while it is easier to stay in the confrontation mode. If you go that route, it is better to look like a military unit than a group of cops.
9/11 has given a lot of folks who wannbe Rambo but, still want to go home at night, drink a few beers and chase the wife around the kitchen the opportunity to play dress up without have to absorb the other lessons.

[NousDefionsDoc]

I would think it would be natural, especially for combat vets, to have some carry over when they went to LEO. The people I'm talking about have never been in the military, and I get the impression they did LEO instead of. I could be wrong about that. They are young guys. I haven't heard females or older guys doing it much. And not so much from the larger cities.

They seem to have GI Joe fever, while they have many fine role models from within the LEO files.

The situation you mentioned in DC would to me be a good case for temp suspending Posse Comitatus. Known terrorist group, etc.

Interesting observations about the neighborhoods and community policing.

[Surgicalcric]

NDD:

I see alot of the same around where I live/work. There is a large SWAT/CERT team for both the county Sheriffs Dept and the City PD. Most of the guys on the teams, that I have noticed, are not PMS, but are those that chose LE instead, were unable to join or whatever. There is the exception but they are few and far between. The guys here still work a normal shift unlike the ones in large cities where SWAT is their full-time assignment. Nonetheless they are dedicated to their 'Mission' if one arises. The guys are always out PT-ing in the park in the mornings, doing formation runs, singing cadences. There is a small MOUT facility where they do CQC and they are always bragging about this warrant or that bust.

I have worked with them on several occasion and they all have an attitude similar to that of some Regiment guys I know. They think they are the know all end all. And they throw the, 'I'm SWAT' around like its akin to SF, Rangers, Force Recon, SEALS. I have actually talked to a few who believe they are just as good at CQB/MOUT as their military counterpart.

It is quite a strange thing to see.

[NousDefionsDoc]

Well, I think you have to expect a certain amount of bravado especially amongst youngsters. When I was in the 82nd Airplane Gang, one of our favorite things was to catch a leg walking through the Division area. In the Quiet Professionals, it wouldn't occur to me to even say much to one.

The part I don't understand is why they don't do their own thing instead of trying to be psuedo-military. Make up their own language, etc.

I don't really have a problem with the weapons, I would hate for them to be outgunned. But you can't become an Operator by calling yourself one. And like Noslack said, Storm Trooper gear doesn't facilitate access by the public. This is going to sound bad, but I also don't think you can compare enemies like a lot of them try to do. I know police work, especially in a large city, can be very dangerous. But the FARC, AQ, Abu Sayef are professional terrorists. Scum yes, but professional. And there's a difference to me in busting into Billy Bob's trailer to serve a meth warrant and busting into a hotel in Mog to serve an Executive Order.

Maybe its just me, but I don't see the need for the over compensation. Could be its a wartime thing and they feel left out?

[Noslack71]

NDD, community policing ifn its done right is somewhat akin to putting an A team in a small vill. You have to be partr of the community to help them. With cops all riding around in cars and dressed up likeninja Turtles, it is difficult to get to know the people you are sworn to help!

[Surgicalcric]

Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
...And there's a difference to me in busting into Billy Bob's trailer to serve a meth warrant and busting into a hotel in Mog to serve an Executive Order.

The FD does not have to be on station for serving an Exec Order but we do for the other.

[pulque]

Noslack71 wrote:
9/11 has given a lot of folks who wannbe Rambo but, still want to go home at night, drink a few beers and chase the wife around the kitchen the opportunity to play dress up without have to absorb the other lessons.

I know this image isnt supposed to be humorous, so I am sorry. You guys are cracking me up.

Great posts.

[NousDefionsDoc]

Originally posted by Surgicalcric
The FD does not have to be on station for serving an Exec Order but we do for the other.

Didn't you sign some Army papers? Then quit talking about fire trucks and "we" in the same sentence.

"We" don't need fire trucks because we don't set shit on fire on accident. Its always on purpose.

[Razor]

Originally posted by Surgicalcric
The guys are always out PT-ing in the park in the mornings, doing formation runs, singing cadences.

I'm of the opinion that if you have enough air to sing, you need to run faster.

[NousDefionsDoc]

Originally posted by Razor
I'm of the opinion that if you have enough air to sing, you need to run faster.

I am in complete agreement with my esteemed colleague from 10th Group.

Tell them to shut up and run really fast.