New Nominee for Secretary of Homeland Security

[NousDefionsDoc]

Originally Posted by Roguish Lawyer

Agreed. Of course, this results from the fact that people disagree about who is best for the job. Your primary concern is stopping terrorists, but many in the Congressional minority are more afraid of LEOs.

You really think they have deep differences over who is best for the job? I think in most cases it is more about being against the nominator rather than the nominee. For example - the Shrillary thing in this case - she will likely object because of Whitewater - I don't think what's best for the citizens of the State of NY will ever enter into her mind. If she doesn't object, it will be for political reasons, not because she got past her personal animosity and did what she thought was right for her constituents.

[NousDefionsDoc]

Originally Posted by CPTAUSRET

WAD!!!

You ok Cap? LOL

[Roguish Lawyer]

Originally Posted by NousDefionsDoc

You really think they have deep differences over who is best for the job? I think in most cases it is more about being against the nominator rather than the nominee. For example - the Shrillary thing in this case - she will likely object because of Whitewater - I don't think what's best for the citizens of the State of NY will ever enter into her mind. If she doesn't object, it will be for political reasons, not because she got past her personal animosity and did what she thought was right for her constituents.

I agree about the politics and the personal animosity, but yes, I think they would appoint someone else. Someone who would be a lot more concerned about civil rights and a lot less aggressive in trying to protect the homeland.

[CPTAUSRET]

Originally Posted by NousDefionsDoc

You ok Cap? LOL

Yeah, but I like Wayne...Figured I would get a reaction.

Terry

[Airbornelawyer]

Originally Posted by NousDefionsDoc

!. That is not a beard and he is not in Afghanistan. He will be expected to lead and give orders to FBI, SS, etc. agents - ever see how they look? There is a reason Dick Marcinko was not the commander of the Old Guard (besides the fact he was Navy). Those very same agents that implement the strategy you speak of.

It is a short boxed beard. If he were in Afghanistan, I suspect he would let it grow out more. Hamid Karzai, who had about the same length while in Europe, did when he returned to Afghanistan.

Also, the FBI is not under DHS and in any event, operated effectively for him when he headed the DOJ Criminal Division. As for the USSS, USCG, etc., I know you are not implying that (a) they are little more than ceremonial and (b) they would be so unprofessional as to let someone's facial hair impair their ability to do their job. This really strikes me as an utterly irrelevant issue.

Originally Posted by NousDefionsDoc

2. He may have only been a judge a short while, but I will bet he spent most of his life preparing for it - so he has been thinking like a judge for a while. Do you think he would have given the same opinion you cite with another 3 years on the bench?

Before questioning his integrity by implying he would be seduced by some judicial dark side, do you have some reason to believe he would not have given the same opinion in 3 years' time? And if he had indeed spent his whole life preparing for a judgeship, why give it up? Federal judges have life tenure. Absent impeachment, they cannot be removed. They either retire or die.

Originally Posted by NousDefionsDoc

3. If Whitewater is any indication of his abilities or his hard-nose, Usama has about as much to worry about as Shrillary. How many people went to jail in that deal?

Fifteen or sixteen. During the period Chertoff was involved in Whitewater:

1. Webster L. Hubbell, Associate Attorney General of the United States
2. Bill McCuen, former Secretary of State of Arkansas
3. James McDougal, Whitewater Development Corp., Madison Bank & Trust and Madison Guaranty Savings & Loan Association
4. Susan McDougal, Whitewater Development Corp., Madison Bank & Trust and Madison Guaranty Savings & Loan Association
5. David Hale, Judge, Municipal Court of Little Rock
6. Christopher Wade, Whitewater real estate broker
7. Stephen Smith, former aide to Gov. Clinton
8. Neal Ainley, President, Perry County Bank
9. Larry Kuca, Madison real estate agent
10. Robert Palmer, Madison appraiser
11. John Latham, CEO, Madison Bank & Trust

Subsequently, five more convictions were handed down for Gov. Jim Guy Tucker, William J. Marks Sr., John Haley, Eugene Fitzhugh and Charles Matthews. Two Arkansas bankers, Robert Hill and Herbert Branscum, escaped conviction due to a mistrial after a jury deadlock. Of course, this is all irrelevant, as Chertoff was special counsel to the Senate Whitewater Committee, not in the Independent Counsel's Office. The committee's role was an investigation, not a prosecution.

As a general matter, though, by your logic Rommel was a terrible general because the Germans lost WW2. And do you judge Col. Simons' abilities based on the failure of Son Tay to rescue any POWs?

As for what is an indication of Chertoff's abilities, he is a highly regarded prosecutor. In 1986, Chertoff won a series of convictions of members of the Commission "La Cosa Nostra," including Anthony "Fat Tony" Salerno (capo of the Genovese family), Anthony "Tony Ducks" Corallo (capo of the Luccese family) and Carmine "Junior" Persico (capo of the Colombo family). He won convictions of Jersey City Mayor Gerald McCann (bank fraud, tax evasion), "Crazy Eddie" Antar (racketering, securities fraud; apparently his prices were so low because he was a crook), Arthur and Irene Seale (kidnapping and murder of an Exxon executive) and former New York State Chief Judge Sol Wachtler (sending interstate kidnapping threats). These are just a few high-profile cases.

Originally Posted by NousDefionsDoc

If he's so great, how come he wasn't choice #1?

A. How do you know that he wasn't, but turned it down, only to have the President come back and ask again after the Kerik fiasco?

B. Even if not, is there some iron-clad rule that there is only one qualified pick for each job?

C. Who says "he's so great"? Maybe he's great, maybe he's just really good, maybe he's merely qualified. But without knowing much about him, you pronounced him a bad choice because he is a judge and has a short beard. I noted a certain illogic to those conclusions and provided some supplemental information. I don't personally know whether he's a great choice, but a number of people whose opinions I respect and who know him have praised his nomination. These include people like former prosecutor Andy McCarthy, who led the team against Sheikh Omar Abdurrahman and who was a longtime critic of the Clinton Justice Department's "law enforcement" attitude toward terrorism. McCarthy described Chertoff's nomination thusly:

Mike Chertoff ... is an absolutely superb choice for this post. He is smart, he has a creative linear mind, and he is up to the management challenge -- which is the biggest challenge facing this sprawling agency. Best of all, in contrast to former NYC police commissioner Bernie Kerik and some of the other state law enforcement people whose names have been floated, he knows the federal system inside and out -- including the sharp elbows of its competing agencies. Once he takes the reins, you are never again like to read another story about how other agencies like the FBI are running bureaucratic rings around, and seizing turf from, DHS.

[Roguish Lawyer]

Originally Posted by Airbornelawyer

As for what is an indication of Chertoff's abilities, he is a highly regarded prosecutor. In 1986, Chertoff won a series of convictions of members of the Commission "La Cosa Nostra," including Anthony "Fat Tony" Salerno (capo of the Genovese family), Anthony "Tony Ducks" Corallo (capo of the Luccese family) and Carmine "Junior" Persico (capo of the Colombo family). He won convictions of Jersey City Mayor Gerald McCann (bank fraud, tax evasion), "Crazy Eddie" Antar (racketering, securities fraud; apparently his prices were so low because he was a crook), Arthur and Irene Seale (kidnapping and murder of an Exxon executive) and former New York State Chief Judge Sol Wachtler (sending interstate kidnapping threats). These are just a few high-profile cases.

Did he try these cases himself or was he in a supervisory role? Just curious, as I don't know much about him.

[Roguish Lawyer]

AL, you are in top form today.

[NousDefionsDoc]

1. It is scraggly wino hair on a grill. Calling it a box doesn't change that.

2. Indeed, why give it up? Whether he prepared for it his whole life or not?

3. Fifteen or sixteen who? Whitewater was about Shrillary Clinton. Everbody on that list except one is a local something. Are you trying to tell me the federal government spent millions of dollars to investigate a local Arkansas law issue and not Shrillary? If I catch 1,000 guppies, do I get to call myself Ahab's Avenger?

4. Rommel lost. 'Nuff said. Don't be talking bad about The Bull. The mission was to take the camp and free what hostages there were. They did that. There just weren't any.

5. UBL ain't Tony Soprano.

6. If he was first choice and changed his mind, why? Is he indecisive? What did they do to sweeten the deal?

7. You are making a bigger deal out of the scraggly box than I did - why? Are you trying to grow one? A former singing the praises of a former prosecutor? Outrageous! What did McCarthy say about Kerik?

[Roguish Lawyer]

Originally Posted by NousDefionsDoc

If he's so great, how come he wasn't choice #1?

Pete Carroll was USC's third choice.

[Airbornelawyer]

Originally Posted by NousDefionsDoc

2. Indeed, why give it up? Whether he prepared for it his whole life or not?

Patriotism? Desire for a challenge? Loyalty to the President? Didn't want to live in New Jersey anymore? I don't know. But I have no reason to impute or imply anything negative (except the living in Jersey bit).

Originally Posted by NousDefionsDoc

3. Fifteen or sixteen who? Whitewater was about Shrillary Clinton. Everbody on that list except one is a local something. Are you trying to tell me the federal government spent millions of dollars to investigate a local Arkansas law issue and not Shrillary? If I catch 1,000 guppies, do I get to call myself Ahab's Avenger?

The Whitewater prosecutions are not relevant to Chertoff, since as noted he was on the investigatory, not the prosectory side. But as an aside, the Whitewater prosecutors convicted every principal they indicted, including a governor and a senior Justice Department official. The two major conspirators they failed to indict - WJC and HRC - were not exactly without the resources to thwart a criminal investigation.

Originally Posted by NousDefionsDoc

4. Rommel lost. 'Nuff said. Don't be talking bad about The Bull. The mission was to take the camp and free what hostages there were. They did that. There just weren't any.

Montgomery won. Yet I wouldn't have placed him in command of a chow run.

Originally Posted by NousDefionsDoc

5. UBL ain't Tony Soprano.

Well, no one has caught Bin Laden, so I suppose no one is qualified.

Originally Posted by NousDefionsDoc

6. If he was first choice and changed his mind, why? Is he indecisive? What did they do to sweeten the deal?

See #2 for various factors. Again, do you have some basis for impugning his integrity, or are you just coming up with reasons to attack someone you don't know? But if you are searching for a grand conspiracy theory, try this: Gonzo was nominated for AG as first step to the Supreme Court. Chertoff was nominated for DHS as first step to the Supreme Court.

This has already been floated elsewhere today, though of course it makes little sense since justices are far more likely to come out of the appellate bench than the cabinet (Rehnquist and O’Connor are the only justices on the current Court who were not previously on an US Court of Appeals).

Originally Posted by NousDefionsDoc

7. You are making a bigger deal out of the scraggly box than I did - why? Are you trying to grow one? A former singing the praises of a former prosecutor? Outrageous! What did McCarthy say about Kerik?

I had to grow a beard in Afghanistan. I hated them.

I have no idea what McCarthy thought of Kerik when he first was nominated. I suspect his criticism of Kerik now is somewhat misplaced. While Kerik might have been inexperienced in federal bureaucratic politics, anyone in New York law enforcement knows that inside and out. Prior to 9-11, the NYPD/PAPD/FDNY turf fights were legendary, as were the squabbles between the NYPD and the FBI. I've seen this firsthand myself, when the NYARNG didn't want any of us not in the Guard wearing uniforms while working at Ground Zero. They wanted their Guard people to be the only "official" soldiers there. We had a USAR civil affairs colonel and a SOCSOUTH IMA lieutenant colonel, though, who cut through the BS rather quickly (another SOF vs conventional armed forces lesson there too - we had an active duty Marine major who did nothing while the rest of us by hook or crook got to where we could help).

[NousDefionsDoc]

The Whitewater prosecutions are not relevant to Chertoff, since as noted he was on the investigatory, not the prosectory side.

I must have misunderstood the system. I was under the impression that the prosecutors can only prosecute according to the results of the investigator's ability to make the case prosecutable. Sorry.

But as an aside, the Whitewater prosecutors convicted every principal they indicted

Except the principle focus of the entire circus.

You win.

[Bill Harsey]

Originally Posted by Roguish Lawyer

Remind me, what line of work was Bill Donovan in?

killing bad guys.

[Airbornelawyer]

Originally Posted by NousDefionsDoc

I must have misunderstood the system. I was under the impression that the prosecutors can only prosecute according to the results of the investigator's ability to make the case prosecutable. Sorry.

Parallel investigations - one criminal, one "political" (for wont of a better word). Like Iran/Contra, where you had a Senate select committee and an independent counsel at the same time (and occasionally at cross-purposes).

[Roguish Lawyer]

Originally Posted by Airbornelawyer

Parallel investigations - one criminal, one "political" (for wont of a better word). Like Iran/Contra, where you had a Senate select committee and an independent counsel at the same time (and occasionally at cross-purposes).

Hey, he said you won. Quit running up the score! LOL

[NousDefionsDoc]

I don't care about the DHS or the TSA. it's not like they're actually ever going to achieve anything anyway. I don't know why I even posted, other than to give AL a little exercise.

As for Whitewater - FREE MARTHA NOW!

Amigitos AL?