Why Reasoning with ISIS is a Useless Concept

[The Reaper]

I get this, but I doubt think the POTUS and his cronies do.

Jihadis don't care if they die. It is the fulfilment of their lives and destiny.

TR


Why Reasoning with ISIS is a Useless Concept
by Steve Thomas

Journal Article | September 14, 2014 - 12:06pm

http://smallwarsjournal.com/jrnl/art...seless-concept

I've seen a couple of angry letters addressed to ISIS on social media, promising to destroy them in place or on American soil, wherever the terror group rears its head. You might as well save your breath, your 140 characters or whatever your preferred mode of communication. You can't scare them and you can't reason with them. Their lexicon precludes either of those things.

First, the scaring aspect. For most people, if death isn't the most terrifying thing they can consider, it's certainly up there near the top of the list. For ISIS, it is the culminating act of a bizarre inversion that they believe brings glory to God. Any mention of defeating them militarily or causing them individual pain and suffering only provides further fodder for the narrative that they are making a noble sacrifice.

As for the reasoning part, Muslim scholars have long sought to resolve or at least understand the dynamic tension between human reason and revelation. Avicenna and Averroes, two 12th century Muslim scholars, are largely responsible for reintroducing the modern world to Aristotle. They had an enormously difficult time reconciling the fact that Aristotle had used rigorous logic and his given human reason to derive truths that they had previously thought were only available after the revelation as transmitted by the Prophet Mohammed.

In the modern western mind, most people obey the law of the country they live in due to what amounts to a social contract. These are the rules that everyone has chosen to live by. For those with more classical political leanings, there is an understanding that there is a split between the laws of men (the world as we see it), the natural law (the way the world really is and is ordered) and the Divine Law (the way God governs it with actual justice).

Even for Western atheists and agnostics, it is understood that the laws of men are imperfect but are at least aiming at a higher good. An example of this would be the idea of universal human rights and their declaration by the United Nations. Even without an agreed-upon ordering principle (i.e. the Christian God, Allah, Yahweh), the nations of the world have decided upon, defined and have sworn to protect what is seen as inherent human dignity.
(As an aside, it is my firm belief that if you don't have a defined system of moral absolutes that are guiding your behavior and that you are willing to defend, then you have no business in conversations about national security or foreign affairs. The reality of the world is that, in order to counter extreme or distorted visions, well-reasoned morality must be carried into the dirty, dangerous parts of the globe by people who are willing to have their faith in those moral systems tested. If you're not willing live it, don't bother posting about it.)

Islam is a religion that, interpreted in the manner of the Islamists, prescribes a way of life not only as a code of personal conduct but also as a normative political system.[i] Thus, you hear the Taliban, ISIS and even some more moderate Arab countries speak of Islamic law, God's law and political system on earth as described in the Koran. Fr. James Schall describes Islam as a religion in which "God is pure will who can make anything right or wrong such that religion means simply 'obedience' to whatever is proposed no matter how lethal."[ii] Schall goes on to say, "We obviously have the suicide bombers clearly in sight here. We have the jihad here. Can such things be God's will?
Can killing oneself along with innocent others be an act of 'martyrdom?'"[iii]

The answer for most of us is a resounding "no." And why not? Because these acts do not pass any test of logic or reason; they are simply acts of lunacy from every angle except the one employed by those seeking the pure will of a God they have not bothered to examine.

For ISIS, any talk of "reasoning" is antithetical to their brand of Islam. Reason is replaced by an iron-clad belief in the complete truth and literal interpretation of the Koran. How can they justify, for instance, the violence and wanton destruction they have wrought in Syria and Iraq? It's simple, as long as there is a passage in the Koran that parallels the current narrative they are selling. But ultimately, we can't reason or hold a dialogue with ISIS because we're not using terms from the same dictionary.

(Cont. at link above.)

[LarryW]

For discussion purposes, I suggest that the focus on religious goals disipates the further up the chain of command you go. The soldiers, the workers, are the ones being manipulated by the CEO "ideologues" on the top, the caliph and his capos. The goal of the IS/ISIS/ISIL IMO is business; it is the making of hard currency. They've solidified some of the tenants of a government with taxes, civil and judicial law, representatives in a kind of representational government, etc. But all this is to insure the income of money into the coffers. No different than the goals of the tribal leaders back in the olden days.

I'm not suggesting that Islam is not the driver of the bus, but just that he's not the one scheduling the tour, either. Follow the money.

I'd bet if you looked at who the customers were who are buying the blackmarket oil you'd find they are the same brokers who are buying and selling the "legitimate" commodities. Buy low - sell high. Going to be hard to isolate the oil they have bought at a discount from the oil they bought from the world market. That's the way a good blackmarketeer hides his stuff...in plain sight.

JMHO...

[LarryW]

I'm not suggesting that this money-thing is the only way or even the main way way to build a strategy. I am suggesting the defeat of these murderous pig-worshipers will require all the tools and all approaches.

• Citizens traveling to Syria for any reason should be placed on US and European watch lists, including from non-US territories. We need to exchange information with all "coalition" states.
  
• Any country willing to help fight these people should be welcomed into the "coalition", including Iran. Manage the areas to keep the Saudis away from the Persians, fine, but don't let regional historic politics slow the fight. We (the civilized world) ain't got the time to screw around.
  
• Develop fiscal agreements in the management of international markets to freeze all currency exchanges from individuals doing business on the blackmarket with IS.
  
• Identify the buyers of IS oil and "out" them. Blacklist them internationally. Any and all companies, regardless of their country of origin. Nobody does business with IS without getting dirty and having their resources seized.
  
• Find them and bomb them into hell. Hold nothing back short of MT nuclear weapons.

These people are not "annoyances". They are pure evil with a goal to dominate all financial and civil life on earth purely for the benefit of their caliph and his capos. Allah is alive in their propaganda and in their recruiting drives to motivate the grunts and keep them in line. Nothing but total war will dissuade them.

Develop a strategy based on a disciplined and expedient mindset, and pure badassed treachery without any reservation. No holds barred.

JMHO, end rant.

[Old Dog New Trick]

I have a novel and applicable strategy, that will ultimately be cheaper than fighting them head-to-head.

Step one) Isolate IS in the areas they have conquered (Northen Syria and Iraq.) Let them have it it's poor real estate anyways. Let nothing escape: armed people, oil, money, weapons, etc...

Step two) Allow those people caught up the middle to leave, even facilitate the evacuation of some under armed escort and quarantine as needed. (This phase will last a limited duration.)

Step three) Cut off all forms of energy, food, water, etc...

Step four) Keep the animals contained and isolated until they eat each other. No exceptions. Any heat signature found wandering the desert at night outside the containment zone will be found in the morning...albeit a little cooler.

No sense in chasing these people. They can have their paradise and their sharia law. Anyone can enter the zone, they just can't come out.

[PRB]

Originally Posted by LarryW

For discussion purposes, I suggest that the focus on religious goals disipates the further up the chain of command you go. The soldiers, the workers, are the ones being manipulated by the CEO "ideologues" on the top, the caliph and his capos. The goal of the IS/ISIS/ISIL IMO is business; it is the making of hard currency. They've solidified some of the tenants of a government with taxes, civil and judicial law, representatives in a kind of representational government, etc. But all this is to insure the income of money into the coffers. No different than the goals of the tribal leaders back in the olden days.

I'm not suggesting that Islam is not the driver of the bus, but just that he's not the one scheduling the tour, either. Follow the money.

I'd bet if you looked at who the customers were who are buying the blackmarket oil you'd find they are the same brokers who are buying and selling the "legitimate" commodities. Buy low - sell high. Going to be hard to isolate the oil they have bought at a discount from the oil they bought from the world market. That's the way a good blackmarketeer hides his stuff...in plain sight.

JMHO...

In my opinion you are very wrong in that analysis.
Take UBL prior to 9/11...he was already wealthy but chose to live in caves as a Jihadi because that underwrote his Islamic interpretation of sacrifice for the cause.
Trying to put western motivation upon Islamic creed is a bad match.
Westerner's define the end as the amount of money accumulated...the big win.
Money to Islamists is simply a tool to spread Islam and not the end within itself.
I'm not sure abt your experience in the ME but you are looking at this thru western eyes and a western viewpoint....that is dangerous.
The folks buying the oil have nothing to do with the Islamists or their motivation, they are just opportunists.

[LarryW]

Originally Posted by PRB

In my opinion you are very wrong in that analysis.
Take UBL prior to 9/11...he was already wealthy but chose to live in caves as a Jihadi because that underwrote his Islamic interpretation of sacrifice for the cause.
Trying to put western motivation upon Islamic creed is a bad match.
Westerner's define the end as the amount of money accumulated...the big win.
Money to Islamists is simply a tool to spread Islam and not the end within itself.
I'm not sure abt your experience in the ME but you are looking at this thru western eyes and a western viewpoint....that is dangerous.
The folks buying the oil have nothing to do with the Islamists or their motivation, they are just opportunists.

I sure defer to your expertise, sir.

[Flagg]

Originally Posted by LarryW

I'm not suggesting that this money-thing is the only way or even the main way way to build a strategy. I am suggesting the defeat of these murderous pig-worshipers will require all the tools and all approaches.

• Citizens traveling to Syria for any reason should be placed on US and European watch lists, including from non-US territories. We need to exchange information with all "coalition" states.
  
  I agree, but I suspect it's far easier said than done. If I entered Syria via a porous Turkish border it could be pretty hard to prove to the evidencestandard required for action/conviction. Compound the problem with conventionally entering country A, illegal entry into Turkey, then Syria..and back.
  
  
• Any country willing to help fight these people should be welcomed into the "coalition", including Iran. Manage the areas to keep the Saudis away from the Persians, fine, but don't let regional historic politics slow the fight. We (the civilized world) ain't got the time to screw around.
  
  I would agree, and I think over time it will become more telling. Any nation that wishes to retain the current International Monetary System will surely get in board sooner than later. Any country that opposes the current IMS(as it's basis is energy) is likely to decline joining such a coalition.
  
  
• Develop fiscal agreements in the management of international markets to freeze all currency exchanges from individuals doing business on the blackmarket with IS.
  
  I could see this happening as ISIS is(or will become) a threat to the current IMS
  
  
• Identify the buyers of IS oil and "out" them. Blacklist them internationally. Any and all companies, regardless of their country of origin. Nobody does business with IS without getting dirty and having their resources seized.
  
  The problem I see with this is oil is so incredibly fungible. Which makes it like mercury and very very hard to nail down.
  
  Magnifying that problem is that any success achieved in preventing ISIS energy sales will simply reduce the price of ISIS energy to the point someone will accept the risk for the arbitrage profits.
  
  
• Find them and bomb them into hell. Hold nothing back short of MT nuclear weapons.
  
  Some people need to be shot in the face......I would only add a plan needed to cut the cycle of violence. The movie Godfather includes examples of how to eliminate the threat of "tactical vendetta", there needs to be a concurrent plan while scalps are being taken to mitigate the risk of "strategic vendetta" and decisively dissuade the next generation of problem metastasizing
  

These people are not "annoyances". They are pure evil with a goal to dominate all financial and civil life on earth purely for the benefit of their caliph and his capos. Allah is alive in their propaganda and in their recruiting drives to motivate the grunts and keep them in line. Nothing but total war will dissuade them.

Develop a strategy based on a disciplined and expedient mindset, and pure badassed treachery without any reservation. No holds barred.

JMHO, end rant.

Personally, I don't see it so much as evil, as being completely incongruent/incompatible with the way of life of my family, my tribe, and me.

And that tells me that unless we live in a world of unlimited territory/resources we will inevitably clash.

So when we clash, I want my tribe to win....decisively.

[The Reaper]

Which is the greater threat to the U.S.; ISIL, or the Iranians and their nuclear program?

TR

[PRB]

Originally Posted by LarryW

I sure defer to your expertise, sir.

I don't want you to defer...just look into it.
I do not see a monetary motivation in this, I just see an Islamic one.
There probably are some Muslims raking in the dough, hell, opportunists exist everywhere so you are right in that respect.
However, I do not see that as the purpose of this enterprise, just as a result of it.

[PRB]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

Which is the greater threat to the U.S.; ISIL, or the Iranians and their nuclear program?

TR

Hard to measure....in the long run Iran I'd say due to a nuke capability but they are children in the nuke fold.
ISIL can cause more immediate problems in their AO and can project because of their cash flow.

The issue is the ME is collapsing because of its inherent faults.....we have to understand the collapse and contain it.

A dying animal is most dangerous ... it simply lashes out.

[Penn]

The first is an information campaign that appeals to that same passion and encourages the disaffected in Iraq, Syria and elsewhere to not take up arms with ISIS. I do not recommend that there is an appeal to join the government side, as that makes the issue a question of political loyalty as opposed to personal passion. Rather, the appeal must be to basic things all people hope to preserve: home, family and a semblance of normalcy.

This idea is fundamentally flawed, a “information campaign” directed at the “disaffected in Iraq, Syria and elsewhere”, “not take up arms with ISIS” is nothing short of a complete misread of the entire socio-demographic.

The first step is to accept the fact that outside the ruling parties of Muslim countries, everyone is “disaffected”, period! Therefore, policy must be based on worst case scenario.

The second thing that can be done, but must be done very carefully, is to attempt to remove the opportunities for coercion. Indeed, the number of sources and theories on how best to intervene politically and militarily is so massive that I couldn’t hope to parse a decent theory here. But there must be a reduction in military capacity that provides people with a modicum of security from coercion.

This statement is pure bullshit, lack of knowledge, info, whatever, but careful confrontation is not part of the lexicon, or equation. Brute force only submits to brute force. It’s a basic rule in nature, only the strong survive. A “reduction in military capacity” degrades what? Security for whom?

[Flagg]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

Which is the greater threat to the U.S.; ISIL, or the Iranians and their nuclear program?

TR

Hmmmmmm..I reckon it's a trick question:

A)ISIL: IF ISIL gains traction and can flow like water through the GCC disrupting the energy cornerstone of the International Monetary System, instead of being physically destroyed and their idea marginalized.

B)Iran: IF Iran's theocracy and/or IRGC thugs gain a viable asymmetric nuclear delivery capability, instead of the Iranian people gaining control of their country and developing into a neutral to positive base of regional stability.

C)Pakistan: Trying to punch above its weight to stay both economically solvent and geopolitically relevant the PAK Army/ISI strike a deal with Saudi Arabia(with quiet, unspoken support from China) to "lease" Pakistan's nuclear capability to arm it's Chinese IRBMs to better ensure Pakistani/Saudi regime continuity to counter "A" and/or "B", instead of Pakistan just eventually imploding due to it's inability to sustain itself on just hate, fear, and declining protection rackets.

D) All of the above?

[LarryW]

Originally Posted by PRB

I don't want you to defer...just look into it.
I do not see a monetary motivation in this, I just see an Islamic one.
There probably are some Muslims raking in the dough, hell, opportunists exist everywhere so you are right in that respect.
However, I do not see that as the purpose of this enterprise, just as a result of it.

I guess what I'm trying to find is a thread, a non-thermonuclear place to begin, some place to start that might reveal a weak spot, a selfish westernized trait. The spiritual ideologues are bullet proof if they don't give a shit about staying alive. Go after the money angle whole hog (e.g., re-issue new middle denomination Euros en masse, or tell the world you're going to) and methinks you'd have an impact. The Islamic notion is the obvious conclusion and it's the one the enemy wants you to see, but there has to be something more, an end game other than the great caliphate. I agree that money isn't the purpose (at least not outwardly) but it's a place to begin. Stop the money, or make it harder for them to spend it or hide it, and you may get some movement in the bushes, and discover a place to aim & shoot. Just an angle...

[LarryW]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

Which is the greater threat to the U.S.; ISIL, or the Iranians and their nuclear program?

TR

IMHO, ISIL.

They have no MAD factor in their lexicon. Besides, the Russians and the Chinese are probably building their nuclear research facilities, and they wouldn't let the Iranians unleash a nuclear attack on anybody, not even Israel. Would they?

[LarryW]

Originally Posted by Brush Okie

You have to look at their motivation in this case they believe they are doing gods work.

There is no one size fits all or a single tactic that will work. We need to attack them several ways.

I agree that the approach has to be on a wide theater. As for their religious motivations, IMO that's what they want the world (especially the non-Muslim world) to see because it's the peak with the steepest slope. And, it's absolutely the tool they're using to recruit and screen their applicants. They sure can't tell the kids coming in from Malaysia or the PI that they're going to commit suicide to help al-Bagdadi buy yet another whore. It also wouldn't be a motive that would endear them to a filthy world press. But, if they are spiritual zealots...ah, now that's a headline. Bottom line is to kill them and make their passing so terrible and unbelievable that others will think twice. We have the capability.

Admittedly, the world is shrinking, and this is just the beginning. The world in another ten years will be unrecognizable. (Again, JMHO.)

Some additional notes:

Re: blackmarket oil
http://edition.cnn.com/2014/08/18/bu...isis-oil-iraq/

Note Item-3:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...raq-executions

It’s a “cash economy”.
http://nation.foxnews.com/2014/08/29...-get-its-money

Follow the money:
http://www.politico.com/magazine/sto...l#.VBc2CVcXOXo

Finally:
http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/i...icle-1.1931954